I would really like to stock perch into my pond. I have exhausted all efforts to get perch for my pond in Ontario. Is there any way I can get fish stock cross border and is there stock available?
Here is an Email I did get from a supplier.
Hi Don, no this is a good time to stock them, but due to the issues I mentioned before, the only supplier in Ontario wasn’t even able to fill my order.
I had ordered 10,000 perch a year ago, was told in Sept that I was going to get ½, then in October when I was told I could come to get them, he estimated that I would be getting 3500.
Upon pickup of the fish I was told that only 1600 were available
I had 2500 sold, and 1 customer coming from Montreal to pick up 1100 and I had to ration fish so most of the people who had orders in got some.
I am going to try some breeding next year myself, but I can not make and guarantees
Sorry.
I wish I could help.
Only thing i could do is keep your email for next year and hope we have a better spring.
If I had have know this was going to be a problem I would have ordered my fish when I started digging.
Hi Don, I would "consider" finding a lake that has some perch and moving some to yours. I know that this has issues associated with it, but if it ends up as a last resort......... Would this even be legal to do in your area?
Then make sure your pond has good areas for spawning to keep them going. Any other predators in the pond? Do you have a good forage base established?
.....I hope that others will give you better/easier advice. My opinion is from a beginners point of view.
This has a cured to me. I do have another private pond where we can do this. Our pond is totally new and void of any fish at all. There is maybe a few frogs but that is it.
Would the perch learn to feed on floating pellets?
Should we just start with feeder fish now and stock next fall. Would hate to miss out on a full year with the pond but if I have to to stock correctly I will.
I really can't give expert advice on any of this, but can give you a few possible things to look into and research. There are a few people on here that have alot of experience with raising perch.
I would establish a very good forage base during the next year. What that may be? You will have to do a search on here. There have been many good discussions on it. This will let you have time to find a source till next year. To speed things along ( this is just AWAG), you might stock only a few now so they spawn in the spring to give a good start, but certainly you would want to make sure that the forage base can out produce those few stockers so everything gets off to a good start.
As far as pellet feeding. I do know that it does exist for perch. There was a recent post saying that doing ityourself is alot of work and that buying pellet fed fish is by far the easier way to go.
Overall, I just think you should work on doing alot of reading here on the forum, getting your forage base started off appropriately (get it going now), and stock next fall, in whatever way you can get the perch at that point. I think others may suggest an ultimate predator to help keep the new perch spawns in check.
You have some options. Although it is suprising that no fish farms in Ontario have good supplies of YP for pond stocking. Sounds like a need that could be filled. For raising YP without pellets, the first thing to do is get a good forage minnow-shiner base established. I'm not sure what minnows are available from fish farms in Ontario. If you can research that and then provide that information, then we can better serve you. Check your local bait dealers and see what species of minnows they commonly sell to anglers. If you can find a local bait dealer or fishing camp that sells locally caught minnows that is a good start. Ask if they have "perch minnows". Among anglers "Perch minnows" are not actually small perch but small minnows used to catch perch. We can help you learn how to identify the best minnows for reproducing in your pond to raise YP. A last option is to trap some local minnows your self, learn how to identify the common ones and put some of the best ones in your pond. I often do this to get minnows not sold by fish farms. 30-50 of the correct minnows per acre can produce thousands of minnows over the summmer for a fall stocking of YP. As a last resort, YP can be obtained from a local lake in the spring before they spawn and are easily recognizable and male & female. A total of 10-20 adult YP can produce thousands of small YP from one spawning-hatching. Since you are in Ontario walleye would probably work good as predators for your YP. I do that in my ponds and several others nearby. SMB can also work okay as predators with YP.
When we fish in Lake Eire they sell us a "minnow" for perch fishing. It is found in the Great Lakes, and CJ has mentioned this minnow before. I can't remember the type it is. However, CJ said something to the effect that this type of minnow will not reproduce in a pond enviroment. I only mention this because it might fool some novice pond owners in thinking that stocking that species is good enough.
Like Bill Cody says, find out what they use locally for fishing, take pictures and find out here if it would be suitable for your pond before investing to much time/money.
---- there you go. Bill was adding all those good links while I was typing. Thanks Bill!!!!!
I was able to get pellet trained perch from Frank at North Shores Fish farms in Ontario. It was a long drive but we picked them up yesterday and got them into the pond.
Frank really knows his work. His shipping method we would have been able to ship 4 hours with them. We got them use to the temp of the water slowly and let them go. The bluegill took more time then the perch.
We put in 400 4-6" perch and 200 3-5" bluegill.
My questions are.
1) How many minnows should I add this fall and this spring?
2) The stock is pellet trained and Frank did give me some food. Our water temp is 55*F. When should I try feeding them with water this cold. Frank took them off feed two days before transport.
3) Should I add 10-20 full grown perch that will bread this year? I understand that the pellet trained fish will not bread in the pond this year. Some of the bluegill may because of size.
4) Am I pushing this pond to hard? Should I just wait the two years?
I'm not sure about yellow perch but usual European perch could spawn in size you mentioned. They certainly won't spawn THIS YEAR because they usually do it in the spring.
The more the water temps drop below 55F the less the fish will feed. BG stop feeding at the surface at about 53-55F and YP stop surface feeding at about 50-53F. New pellet trained fish often take 1-3 weeks to acclimate to the pond before pellet feeding resumes. If natural foods are in the pond then resumption of pellet feeding is often slower. It depends. Don't add lots of food that floats to shore and goes to waste. this will also cause more filamentous algae growth.
YP at 4"-6" were hatched this spring and should provide at least a few egg ribbons in 2013 when the water gets to 50-54F. Provide a few tree branches along shore for them to lay eggs on. Then you will see the eggs in shallow water.
It won't hurt to add a few larger YP before the spring 2013 spawn. Remember these larger wild YP will not eat pellets and will need minnows as food. Minnows can be added any time this fall or next spring. Add minnows before you add wild adult YP. Add about 1/3 - 1/2 lb of minnows for each new adult YP that you stock, 3-4 adult YP for every one lb of minnows. So 20 adult YP then add 5-10 lbs of minnows. Add some minnows (8-10 lbs) in June 2013 if you don't see minnows in shallow water nor coming to eat pellets. You want a minnow spawn in 2013 and beyond.
Adding the BG increases the need for LMB to control the BG. LMB will tend to eat YP more than BG, thus limiting the number of new YP that are recruited each year. Don't be suprised if you don't see new young YP after the LM bass spawn once.
Stocked YP and BG should grow fast and well on pellets. Did you see what the name brand of pellets that the North Shore Fish Farm used? How far north from the fish farm did you live?
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/12/1203:48 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Standard advice would have been to stock your forage this past Spring, allow them to spawn multiple times, then stock your fish. Do you have a forage base established yet, or are you just looking to do this now? Sounds like you have a pond with YP and BG only at this point, so we're attacking this in a backward fashion. Not a big deal, I just want to make sure we understand the situation prior to making recommendations. Few questions:
What is your overal stocking plan? What else will you stock in this pond?
What size is your pond [depth, too].
What species will be used to control your BG population?
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
TJ some of your questions are answered in the link that I added to my post above. His plan evidently changed to add BG. Original plan was with crappie. Yes- I think he is another overeager pond owner and is stocking sort of backwards. He was previously provided lots of reading material. It is a new pond this summer. Adding the larger fingerling YP and BG before any minnows is the common "cart before the horse" situation, but it could work okay since the fish usually have farm raised pellet fed fat in them and can survive over winter on fat and invertebrates until spring. A pond fullof minnows would insure well fed winter fish and a YP spawn spring 2013. Winters are long in Ontario. Fellet feeding in spring 2013 will resume their growth. His predator choice will be the main problem to get control of BG and have a long term perpetuating YP fishery. As you know by experience, BG & YP are not the best combination for both species to do well together and both thrive long term without lots of hands on management.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/12/1203:45 PM. Reason: clarification
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Ok first supplier I spoke with suggested black crappy if I was to stock perch. The second one said bluegill with the perch and the third North Shores said bluegill too. A ratio of 2-1 perch to bluegill.
Not sure if this was the right thing to do but it seems to be what everyone suggests in Ontario with perch.
I really do not want to go to bass but I am sure in the long run I will end up with some in there some how. Every pond around has base weather small or large mouth.
I have stocked 4 pounds of shiners for perch. These shiners are slang for a minnow that is green top half with a green sparkle fleck behind the top of their head to their dorsal fin. I don't see a spot on the tail but they could be very young.
Please please tell me I can control these bluegill with out large mouth bass. The reasoning North Shore gave me "was that the bluegill will spawn twice per year and the perch once. The perch will feed on the bluegill fry and will control them." Is this wrong and will I be fighting these bluegill?
I really would like to have a perch pond with the perch the most prolific fish in the pond.
Me and the boys placed an apple tree cut up into the pond on a 5 foot shallow area. We then placed pine bows on top of the apple tree branches. We had a few small short stumps we placed in 4 foot of water as well. Kind of a beaver hut in away. We have tones of water bugs and frogs in the pond but no plants yet. We would like to add some potted lily pads in the spring to the 4 foot shallow ridge in the pond.
So the water is 53 now so the fish are to bed for the winter. No need to feed them.
The feed is high energy from Martin feed mill in Ontario here. Check link bellow.
I am hoping that bluegill in warmer climates are hard to control and it will not be as hard or, a big problem for me. May be fertilizing my trees with bluegill mid summer.
It sure will be interesting to hear what others have to say about this, especially with thoughts on how the BG will be controlled, if they need to be in your area.
I have read on here a few times that if you want to keep the BG under better control, don't put in habitat that they can hide in. So, you will want to reasearch that before you throw in a bunch of plants, etc.
The suppliers must think that the shiner won't make it over the long term if they are advising you to add BG to feed the perch. Sure hope that it wasn't a ploy to just sell you more fish. Pics of that "shiner" would help others here guide you more...
You and many other new members should remember that many if not most fish farms specialize in growing and raising small fish - egg to juveniles. We here at Pond Boss specialize in experience, knowledge, and management for growing those smaller hatchery / farm fish into trophy sized fish. There is a huge difference in the two management philosophies and techniques. Many fish farms emphasize in selling fish which is why IMO they frequently "push" extra species onto the naive, novice pondowner. Fish farms can usually make a good 'case' for having the extra species so the pond owner buys the extras. The problem as my experience has been when the pond owner has problems with managing the "sold pakcage of fish", the fish farm's answer is usually to buy more fish or "sorry that didn't work out for you".
I don't like harping on this topic, but many of the P.Boss links that I provided previously, emphasized not to combine YP and BG if the emphasis is YP.
YP will feed on BG fry, but will never control them. Guaranteed. I've not seen it happen in my 42 years of pond management. The problem is several fold. Main items: 1. BG fry quickly grow beyond the forage size for YP to eat them. YP even large 12"-13" ones rarely eat a young BG over 2" and mostly eat the ones 1.2" and smaller. Larger BG are ignored. Although those same YP will eat 4" minnows and 4" YP. Adult BG will also prey on YP fry until the YP young are 1" long. 2. the other problem as I see it is, you stocked twice too many BG if you expect YP to have any chance to control them. BG are way too prolific as nest spawners even if they spawn once a year for YP to control BG. YP lay unguarded egg strands and often lower percent of the eggs hatch compared to BG. Other issues also occur with this. Topic and as usual it depends. 3. Several here who have BG with YP & SMBass to help with predation, have very difficult times controlling the BG. Manual BG removal of many BG is necessary to even come close to balanced well growing populations. I have a local pond near me and similar spawning latitude to you with YP-Walleye and BG. The pond owner constantly has to remove small BG each year. The main fish that has any change to control BG is the LMB. If you can control BG with YP and another predator besides LMB you will make history and we would love to read about your success.
I am a big fan of hardy hybrid water lilies. But in your instance I would attempt to keep all weeds out of your pond. Any type of weed cover will be too beneficial as cover for BG to overpopulate without using LMB.
My advice is proceed as you wish. Keep some good inforation records as to fish caught their sizes and estimated numbers when they come to feed on pellets. Stock the predator of your choice and watch the results especially in regards of how many small 2"-4" BG you are seeing in the shallows and your boys are catching on small hooks and live bait. Your pond is small enough that it can be killed off and start over when the BG become too abundant and you are dissatisfied. Based on my experience BG overpopulation will not be evident until 4-7 yrs. Keep us updated on this thread as to the progress of your pond. Others may have advice to help you with what and how many predators to stock to help conrol of BG. My opinion is if you want control of BG you need LMB.
The shiners described sound like emerald shiner to me. Close-up, clear pictures would help with identification. The fish food label looked very adequate to grow YP and BG. Getting the a good percentage of the YP that are later added by in-pond spawning to eat pellets will be a challenge. Getting the new young immature BG to eat pellets is fairly easy and usually successful.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/12/1209:17 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Well I guess it is not the end of the world. I do not plan on inventing the wheel. I am just looking to create a nice pond for the kids to be able to catch fish any day all day with a fish every cast. If I have to put in Large mouth bass I will.
Can Large mouth perch and bluegill cohabit-ate in a small .75 acre pond like ours?
I am feeling that you are 100% right on the sales of these fish by the fish farm. They want me back to buy more perch in two or three years.
I have no plants at all and can control them very well with help from the boys. Three young boys that all away need things to do. Our clay soil is so tight and void of any air it will not grow anything for four years if you get into the sub soil. If you plow the farm to deep and turn up that clay you can tell in the crop the next year. Weed control will be very easy till we get some silt build up in the pond and even then the pond is very steep and deep.
I am getting the idea that we need to hold back the bluegill as long as we can to let the perch get well established in the pond then add the large mouth bass. This in order to keep some large perch but any yearly schools of perch will be much lower because of the bass. I can see how the bass would prefer the perch then the bluegill just in body shape. Limit the weeds but lots of sticks and wood limbs for the perch to hide and spawn on.
This looks like it will be great fun for me and the boys not just to fish but manage and trap count fish. Large mouth are great sport fish and allot of fun but very fearsome eaters. Perch fry for a few years then bass after that.
Lots of info here, and Cody is our expert on these matters, and many other topics.
Sounds as if your goal is to create a YP fishery - if so, BG were not an ideal companion species. OK, nuff said, you get it!;) You'll need to either extensively manage the BG [remove thousands annually] or add an apex predator like SMB or LMB. SMB have a smaller gape, and larger YP can avoid predation, but the limited gape also renders BG over 4" pretty safe from predation, too. So, with SMB you don't get effective management of BG and instead get overpopulation and stunting issues.
With LMB the gape is much larger, which means larger BG will serve as forage, but your adult YP will suffer in a big way, too. YP are easier for LMB to prey upon due to their fusiform shape - so your YP and shiners will likely serve as forage first, then onto your BG.
YP can be successful with LMB, but those ponds have dense vegetation and/or habitat. Problem is, that also helps the BG, which are the fish species you want managed - so dense cover is not what you need.
Couple options at this point in my mind:
You can drain, seine, remove all BG, and restock your YP and shiners -that's probably what I would do because I know from personal experience the issue BG can serve. If you want a panfish species to complement your YP I'd go with Male BG or HBG.
If you don't want to do this, and you need an apex predator to manage your BG, I'd go with MALE LMB. Males will top out around 2-3#, and will have a more limited gape than females. The larger the gape, the larger the YP a LMB can hammer. You don't want your 12-13" YP wasted as LMB food. For a .75ac BOW I'd stock 20-25 male LMB. Expect to supplementally stock YP on some basis...I'd cage grow them out to adult sizes prior to stocking to help improve their survival rates.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
TJ some of your questions are answered in the link that I added to my post above. His plan evidently changed to add BG. Original plan was with crappie. Yes- I think he is another overeager pond owner and is stocking sort of backwards. He was previously provided lots of reading material. It is a new pond this summer. Adding the larger fingerling YP and BG before any minnows is the common "cart before the horse" situation, but it could work okay since the fish usually have farm raised pellet fed fat in them and can survive over winter on fat and invertebrates until spring. A pond fullof minnows would insure well fed winter fish and a YP spawn spring 2013. Winters are long in Ontario. Fellet feeding in spring 2013 will resume their growth. His predator choice will be the main problem to get control of BG and have a long term perpetuating YP fishery. As you know by experience, BG & YP are not the best combination for both species to do well together and both thrive long term without lots of hands on management.
Yes, I do...very well.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
What if I have the boys over the next four to seven years fish as many and trap as many bluegill out? Can we manage the bluegill to the point of extinction? If I can get four or seven years of good perch growth then drop in some walleye or large mouth bass.
I am good with diversity and balance of different species of fish in the pond.
I will shoot some good close up pictures of the minnows today when I get a chance.
Don - you will never fish nor trap nor seine BG to extinction. They are too prolific and two fish can produce thousands the next year. I think you can live with your mistake and do quite well having a good fishing pond by using LMB as your main predator. If you feed pellets to the BG they will get big and provide lots of fun for the family. Can we assume that you bought pure strain bluegill and not hybrid bluegill (HBG)? Do you have any pictures of the BG that you stocked?
One helpful hint that helps with LMB in combination with an emphasis on YP is to not let the LMB get larger than 14"-15". Thus remove all bass or just those bass larger than 14"-15" and return most bass smaller than 14"-15". Which bass removal plan to use will depend on how many and what size of BG seem to be present in the pond and how well the LMBass are reproducing.
Feeding the fish (BG-YP) will help promote fast growth and good body condition of remaining BG & YP. You may have to periodically every 2-3 yrs go back to the North Shore Fish Farm and buy 15-25 8" YP (their food fish) as supplimental stockers to keep a high number of large pellet eating YP present. Trapping and angling results will tell you when YP numbers are low. Do not stock YP smaller than 7.5" with 14" bass present. Reason is, larger bass eat larger YP. Using larger stokcers allows more YP to survive to grow into the 8"+ harvestable category.
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/13/1210:46 AM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
What if I have the boys over the next four to seven years fish as many and trap as many bluegill out? Can we manage the bluegill to the point of extinction? If I can get four or seven years of good perch growth then drop in some walleye or large mouth bass.
Cheers Don.
I would certainly consider this. The others here can add detailed pros/cons of this, and also alot of different reading here in past posts. You want fun fishing for kids, and you certainly will have alot of fish for that, but another fun thing for the kids to get involved with would be trapping/netting and sorting those out. Be prepared for that extra work, some wouldn't be up to it. Keep in mind if you go that route, habitat in the pond has to accomodate being able to do it. Just can't start throwing in stuff without any considerations. Research, research, research....
I don't think you could fish enough to control them.
Edit--- Bill has come thru again!!!! My typing response took to long.
Well with three boys and two nieces who live across the road we can put open season on the bluegill. Trapping mostly then fishing them out before the spawn this spring. I am really disappointed in the fish supplier now.
When should we think about placing in large mouth bass? Should we try to control the bluegill our self or just put the wolves in this spring?
Here is a few pictures of the 4 pounds of minnows we put into the pond. I am not sure if these will spawn in the pond or something we will have to keep adding.
I recommend to all Pond Boss members to always head to the hatchery with a Pond Boss sponsered stocking plan/fish list in hand. Hatcheries generate revenue selling fish - their expertise is focused on producing and growing large quantities of fish - I have found many lack pond/fishery management expertise, and are motivated only by moving as many fish as possible. Sometimes your interests are in line with the hatchery, sometimes they are not.
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
The shiners look like a color phase of the emerald shiners that I am familiar with. CJ will help verify the ID. We need some PBoss opinions of when, how many, and what size of LMB to stock. Does anyone think Don should first try SMB-WE before adding LMB? In southern Ontario north of Lake Erie, I think you will see limited spawning of YP in April and definately spawning of the BG in mid-summer of 2013.
Don - to help others in the future I think we should change the title of this thread to something like: BG & YP in Canada - Help!
Last edited by Bill Cody; 11/13/1201:32 PM.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
Lack of habitat/structure other than vegetation, heavy stocking of SMB, WE, and HSB still don't keep up with my BG. However, having a predator heavy/forage heavy fishery isn't a horrible situation. The only concession I have to make is lack of quality BG fishery - but I feel good knowing my predators will always have plenty of forage, if they really want it - they merely need to focus on the abundant BG population to hammer.
My $.02:
Plan 1: Stock 20-25 Male LMB - easily removed, easily managed, no reproduction. Be prepared to add or remove and make plan for cage growing YP and supplementally stocking at 8"+ as Cody says.
Plan 2: Stock 25-30 pellet trained SMB, 20 WE, 20 HSB [will they make it in ON? White Bass do I know...]. Add little to no structure to help facilitate BG predation - vegetation only to provide spawning habitat for Shiners. Add a few sticks for YP strands. Pellet feed heavily to help supplement growth of all species.
Bill, what do you think?
Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau
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Bill has come thru again!!!! My typing response took to long.
