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#309714 - 10/22/12 07:59 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
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I'm one of these planned experimenters and I'd be glad to get some guidance or pointers I was thinking of starting a thread on it..
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#309759 - 10/23/12 08:05 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: Greg Grimes]
RydforLyf Offline


Registered: 08/03/11
Posts: 89
Loc: Marietta, GA
Any idea what the cut off date is/was? Last night I opened a bag of the Macon stuff that was dated 9/16, I think. I was hoping for the smaller pellets.

-RFL

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#309774 - 10/23/12 12:23 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Don't count on anyone from Purina Mills to tell you. Direct communication with their customer base here is nonexistent.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/23/12 02:44 PM)
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#309777 - 10/23/12 12:51 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: Cecil Baird1]
esshup Offline
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Cecil, my supplier has the "Richmond plant" food. LMK if you need some.
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#309783 - 10/23/12 02:05 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: esshup]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Scott,

I'll need a bag from you in the next couple of weeks. I can't feed the bluegills in the two high schools the over sized alleged 5D06, and I sure don't want to take a chance on buying another bag of over sized feed I can't use! Jeeze you'd think their two plants could at least use the same die!

BTW I'm getting 7 to 9 inch male brooks from Nelski as soon as I get a copy of his last three health inspections and get them to Randy Lang of the INDNR with my Trout Importation permit application. He's selling the bigger ones to someone else. I believe we had some miscommunication as it was my understanding he was supposed to contact ME.

Not a big deal as I have to grow them out to trophy size anyway and the smaller ones adapt better in the pond. It also gives me a little more time to clean up the trout pond.

I've got the Aquaculture and Fish Hauler's permits but need the trout importation permit on top of that from the DNR. I'd need a fourth permit from BOAH if the trout were on the VHS list! Four permits to get fish. Crazy huh?

I thought I got a trout importation permit this spring but I was mistaken.



Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/23/12 10:49 PM)
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#309787 - 10/23/12 02:27 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: Cecil Baird1]
esshup Offline
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LMK if you need other than AM500 food and I'll make sure I get it.

The importation permitting paperwork with the state could be an easier and quicker process, that's for sure! Randy is wearing too many hats (thru no fault of his own) and that bogs down the process. Him having to check two different offices for paperwork doesn't help matters either. He works out of one office, but the permit applications are sent to a different city.
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#309790 - 10/23/12 02:41 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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We had both Dr. Strssser of BOAH and Randy Lang of the INDNR for a Q & A session at at our fall aquaculture meeting Saturday. Good people just doing their job but the permit process can be frustrating.

At least they don't have an agenda like some other states. Some state agencies have an adversarial relationship with those they have a charge over. Indiana does not.
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#309925 - 10/25/12 09:51 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
mpc Offline


Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 196
Loc: TX , EAST, BIG SANDY
Hi All read the posts in this thread and I found a study that address feed(s). I did not understand all of it,but in the end even with the flaws that occured,it appeared the study showed why the fatty livers happen and why it is a problem when growing Trophy CNBG, and other sportsfish maybe.
It takes a while to read and if you care not to read the control data and so many detail, the conclusions seem to me to not be biased.
The real points I gleened from this ONE study, although others were referenced, is that Fat, ammount of fat, as well as type of fat, is important. As well, the study, to me, suppoted the facts/idea that a plant based feed can be made to mimic, for the most part, a fish meal diet.The plant based being cheaper to support the studys reason for the research in the first place.
All that said a extra $100.00/yr bucks(4 or 5 bags of feed) to me does not really matter, but to a fish farm, it is a big deal.
One thing that confused me until the end of the study was the two systems studied ie. the 10% cull and replace and the or study group no fish pulled,with the conclusions that maybe the dominance of the larger fish (hierarchy) to taking more feed,bla bla bla.
It appeared to me that their findings that the end total weight of each group was the same, was facinating. They found the larger fish culled were mostly,if not all males, which changes the ratio of male/female in the 10% cull group, and indicated to me that females CNBG do not grow as fast as the males. I think I want to keep a high % male CNBG in my pond to get the trophy size. Did I get it wrong?

Here is the link to the study and I hope to read some thought from others when you have the time: https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10355/8874/research.pdf
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#309931 - 10/25/12 10:31 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: mpc]
esshup Offline
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Originally Posted By: mpc
They found the larger fish culled were mostly,if not all males, which changes the ratio of male/female in the 10% cull group, and indicated to me that females CNBG do not grow as fast as the males. I think I want to keep a high % male CNBG in my pond to get the trophy size. Did I get it wrong?


Nope, you got it right. Having a larger % of Males also reduces the number of YOY produced yearly.
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#309933 - 10/25/12 10:37 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
ewest Offline
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MPC said " As well, the study, to me, suppoted the facts/idea that a plant based feed can be made to mimic, for the most part, a fish meal diet."

MPC that is exactly what they want you to think. That was the purpose of the study.

Here is my reply from the first thread

That is a gold mine of info not seen before wrt BG. It will take a few days to get through it. The study is very well done. Much thanks for the heads up.

If you read it keep in mind its purposes - to find an alternative to fish meal for young BG in closed systems. It is not about supp feeding in ponds for years but about aquaculture of BG to harvest size for food. Here is one key point made ... Diets based on fish meal protein are more likely to meet amino acid requirements of fishes (Gatlin et al. 2007). ]


The study provides in its methods - Finally, bluegills were provided a commercial feed (Aquamax-Grower-400, Purina 45 % crude protein, 16 % crude fat) for two consecutive days. … Feeding bluegills the commercial diet between test diets was done to avoid nutrient deficiencies that might arise due to the use of a single-ingredient test feed.

I think the use of this method speaks volumes about critical protein based amino acids and fish meal. Its needed in predator fish including BG and there is no current info that disputes this for supp feeding. We ask both Cargill and Purina at the PB conference if they were saying FM could be replaced by other products at this point for supp feeding and not a one of them even suggested yes. I have ask several other PhD fish nutritionists the same question and they said no. We simply don’t have the evidence that such a replacement will work – that is why the feed industry is supporting several of this type study. It is a hot topic right now and we do need the info. Keep in mind they are talking about farmed fish for food not supp feeding for recreational fisheries. There is a huge difference. More later as I digest the study.

There is an entire area of this study on social behavior of BG and its effect on growth. See Bruce's work for years on this subject and the Neff studies on BG. All are discussed here on PB. Fascinating info.


Edited by ewest (10/25/12 10:43 AM)
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#310696 - 11/01/12 08:28 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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When I ordered another bag of 5D06 from my supplier but said I didn't want the larger pellets from Macon she asked me to bring a sample in as her rep said nothing about it. I brought in a few of the older smaller 5D06 and the newer larger 5D06 in zip lock bags. In the bags it was clear there was definitely a size differential.

Anyway she told me all the Aquamax is now made in Macon according to her rep and Richmond, Indiana may just be a distribution point now.

Anyone else hear this?
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#310699 - 11/01/12 08:36 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
ewest Offline
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No and the guy in charge of making the stuff said just the opposite.
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#310701 - 11/01/12 08:43 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: ewest]
esshup Offline
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Cecil, I need to buy some food in the next few days. Want me to grab a bag of 500 for ya?
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#310712 - 11/01/12 09:20 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: ewest]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: ewest
No and the guy in charge of making the stuff said just the opposite.


Good to hear!
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#310714 - 11/01/12 09:20 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: esshup]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: esshup
Cecil, I need to buy some food in the next few days. Want me to grab a bag of 500 for ya?


No I need a bag of 06 that is normal size. LOL!
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#310738 - 11/01/12 10:30 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: Cecil Baird1]
esshup Offline
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I'll call you when I have it and I'll measure a couple of pellets for ya.
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#310759 - 11/02/12 07:49 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: esshup]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: esshup
I'll call you when I have it and I'll measure a couple of pellets for ya.


I should get it from my supplier but haven't heard yet. If you've already ordered it I'll take though.

The Macon stuff has Macon on the bag seam with the lot number etc.
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#310780 - 11/02/12 09:37 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: Cecil Baird1]
esshup Offline
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Cecil, I don't have to order, they stock it. Bar MM Feed, Culver, Indiana 574-842-3374. If you call in the middle of the day talk to Connie. Mornings and afternoons she's driving a school bus. Nice people.
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#311061 - 11/04/12 07:59 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: ewest]
mpc Offline


Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 196
Loc: TX , EAST, BIG SANDY
Hi ewest, I get what you are saying and hope one day we will have the very best feed for each species of fish we want to raize.Until that time,if fish meal is not taken away from us who only have recreational ponds, I think I will trust those here,like you who have vast knowledge as well as feed experiance. I do enjoy the studies(parts I can understand) and the conclusions.
What they do for the lay person(me),is let me know that there is research and the feed composition is not just trial and error only.Also that companies Like Purina and others do more that just copy-cat and charge more for the name,like one hears and reads often. Thanks for your response.
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#311062 - 11/04/12 08:18 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
mpc Offline


Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 196
Loc: TX , EAST, BIG SANDY
Hi All, here is another link to another study that kinda explains why fish meal makes our feed cost more and why there is less of it as well. I hope we will be able to comtinue to be able to have fish meal feeds with the plant based products for those who need a budget alternative.
http://fao.org/docrep/012/i1140e/i1140e.htm Click on the blue pdf. in the upper right hand corner.
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#311063 - 11/04/12 08:25 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
ewest Offline
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All I see is nothing there -- ? No pdf I can see.
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#311080 - 11/04/12 10:23 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: ewest]
esshup Offline
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All I got was:

Page not found
The page you are looking for has either been moved or no longer exists. Please use the search box to find the information you are looking for or consult one of the links on the left.
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#311081 - 11/04/12 10:29 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
FireIsHot Offline
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Registered: 02/28/11
Posts: 3899
Loc: Emory TX
I believe what mpc was referring can be found under publications on the left side menu. Just a guess. I'm on my phone or I'd repost the link.


EDIT: fyi, it's a big download.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/016/i2727e/i2727e.pdf


Edited by FireIsHot (11/05/12 07:38 AM)
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#311108 - 11/05/12 10:11 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
ewest Offline
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Thanks - the info starts on about pg 170.
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#311309 - 11/06/12 06:47 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
mpc Offline


Registered: 06/07/11
Posts: 196
Loc: TX , EAST, BIG SANDY
Sorry about the link guys. My computer got a virus and I will be out for a few day(wife let me borrow hers for a few min.). I must have put something in a a little wrong on the http, but I cannot fix it right now.
Thanks for the helpful link fireishot, it is part of the report I am reading.
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