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I'd like to start a thread with the intention to stimulate a little discussion in regards to the indoor overwintering of some redear sunfish.

The water obviously will be a little chilly. I have purchased a stock tank heater that is safe for use in plastic tanks.

My plastic tank is about 225 gallons, and has been surrounded with R-10 insulation.

The tank will house about about 200 redear sunfish, and about 200 bluegill, all about 2-3 inches, that weigh a total of about 20 pounds. There will also be a few feed trained adult redear sunfish.

So far the project has gone well. The fish are aclimated with no mortalities, and the water is crystal clear (I won't share all of my secrets so far) smile

In the next few months I will meet a few challenges, including fighting cold water effect on RES, and water quality stress.

I'll be discussing methods of feeding the fish, minimizing stress and disease, and hopefully end up with a group of fish that exit the winter safely, and with a little good fortune, in good body condition.

The general idea of the article is to talk about how I used the products and expertise of vendors at the Pond Boss Conference V in order to create this system on a very reasonable budget. Ultimately I would like the article to persuade more people to attend the conference when they realize what a diverse and talented group of vendors are present.

First of all, are there any forum members who are familiar with maintaining water quality in intensive aquarium systems? I'd like to know about O2, bacteria, nitrates, nitrites, etc.


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Sounds interesting, I promise not to bring anything up about metric. Didnt mean to kill your last post.


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Bruce, what vendors have auto feeders for such a system?


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What kinda stuff did the vendors have to offer?

Just because your water is crystal clear, doesn't mean it is not lethal to fish.

Sounds interesting tho!

Last edited by JKB; 11/04/12 01:13 PM.
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AES has an excellent selection of feeders.

Strongly agree with your statement JKB. That's why I need to know what sort of parameters I should be checking regularly and how to do so.

Ammonia rings a bell...


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I know there's guys on here who know this for you Bruce I by no means am one of them.. Cecil only one I can think of off the top of my head..


I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.

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Sounds interesting. I will see what I can find.
















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Start with this one. Most of this you know but there is some good data.

https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/103/

Here is the whole list fyi

https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/CategoryDetails/whichcategory/24/
















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For my overloaded aquariums I simply used a vastly over-sized filter system. This prevents me from having to service them too often (throwing water quality into fits), and allows them to digest events like a dead fish that you cannot service in time.

The best filters are the muti-stage canister filters, where they have ceramic media, foam layers, activated charcoal and so on.

I have made my own very effective filter out of a 20-gallon long aquarium and installing dividers to support an overloaded 150 gallon tropical aquarium. Pump in one end, intake from an overflow chamber in the other (it was a marine plexi aquarium). Start with coarse material such as foam or craft stuffing on the intake and work your way to fine stuff such as ceramic media on the pump end. The best part of the aquarium filter is the water level in the "filter" varies, but the main aquarium stays the same. Fill in the bottom aquarium.

I would recommend doubling the size of the filter from what you already think is large if you are filtering cold water. I would suspect, though I cannot confirm, that cold-water slows the filter's effectiveness.

Size the filter according to load, but the fish load has to be consistent to feed the filter so it can do its job properly. Big changes in feeding or fish load will send the aquarium water into water quality swings as the bacteria stabilize for the change.

Other helpers are live plants with bright lighting, and a good PH buffer in the water during water changes. You can purchase PH buffers for marine aquariums such as Calcium Chloride and other materials. Just have to keep tabs on the PH as adding it will effect it. I add the buffer to the change water and test before dumping it in. Also use good aquarium salt to lower fish stress levels.

I am no expert, just roughly 37 years of aquarium malpractice (5yo with first one).

-Mark

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Mark! What is your preferred way of monitoring pH?

Also, how do I acquire the right type of aquarium salt, and how do I know how much to add?

I plan on replacing all of the water at least twice/month (incrementally, of course).


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ewest, the charts in those links are awesome! I'm going to learn on the crash course.


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Usually I get the aquarium salt in 1/2 gallon cardboard milk containers from the fish store. That lasts for a few years in my smaller 30-gal aquariums, but instructions are on the side. Something like a tablespoon per gallon, but it depends on the fish. Example: guppies can take more and prefer more. You may be able to source larger quantities on-line for reasonable prices.

The Calcium Carbonate I got in a 5lb container for marine use. I am sure you can find it much cheaper than I paid for it. The advantage is it is purified so it wont cloud the water with impurities. I haven't used it in a long time since my tap water already is well buffered.

I use the paper strips for PH, since it is cheap, quick, and they store well. The same is true with alkalinity. You can purchase a big honking box of 100 or more online for cheap, though lately the pool stores have been a good supply simply out of convenience. I figure the accuracy is more than enough for fish.

BTW most of my fish die from old age. Rarely from introduction, disease, or water quality. Just lost my first fish in more than a few months from getting stuck in a decoration yesterday, I couldn't get it out. Its out now, but got a swirly.

My big problem right now is my tetras are breeding, and starting to overcrowd. I have a lot of plants and cover, so many make it to adulthood. They are Emperor Tetras, not the fragile little Neons. I had to stop raising angelfish for the same reason.

I used to be a big discus guy, I love those fish! But when I moved to the house I live in now, my transfer was a disaster. The power company turned off the power before we moved in, but the fish were already there. It was winter, and they don't take kindly to being chilled. So mad! Expensive loss, so I never started back up.

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Caution: Not an attempt to derail, just some personal stuff that i enjoy sharing:

I did too well with my son's aquarium once ;-)


The little aquarium which is raising tetras:
https://picasaweb.google.com/101078073330424712743/NewAquarium
Oh and with fish, many of these are still allive and flourishing!
https://picasaweb.google.com/101078073330424712743/Aquarium

I have downsized recently due to a child that requires more attention than most. What is fun is he is asking Santa for an aquarium of his own. Got him hooked!

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Wow!!! Very cool!


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Can we start with a short list of the parameters I'll need to watch? I have a DO meter, and my water is testing at saturation right now. I am also working with Shawn Banks on a backup pure O2 system in case my power goes out this winter.

I have very little control over temperature, and to be honest I'm kind of compelled to find out what the redears do in temps at around 40 degrees F. (Bing) since that will most closely mimic the natural conditions after release next fall.

So here's what I control so far.

Temps to fluctuate between 40 and 55 degrees over the next three months.

Oxygen hopefully near saturation.

Feeding, minimal...hopefully enough to maintain body condition.

So would pH be the next most logical parameter to watch? I'll go get pH strips tomorrow. How accurate do they have to be. Will they just tell me .5 pH increments...or .1 pH increments. I'd assume that plummeting pH is my biggest concern, right? Add carbonate as needed?


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Carbonates should buffer the water against large ph swings.

I have not yet found a formula for O2 (BOD) use by sunfish other than the general info in that link ( max O2 saturation).
















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Once the filter/system is stabilized and you have proper buffering the PH will only change under the following:

1. Major water change (keep it to a max of 1/3 the water per day)
2. Fish croaked
3. Filter crash due to water flow stopping.
4. Minor amounts may be due to dissolved CO2, but in this fish density I am assuming you will be circulating a lot of water, no plants, and bubbling air. The CO2 wont last long.

I only test PH when I am about to change water to make sure my change water is within 0.5PH of the aquarium. I only change water about once a month since my filter is over-sized. If PH doesn't match, I have an opportunity to adjust before the change. I could alter the aquarium, but it is better to alter the change water unless the aquarium is not near where you want it. So far for the past two years, my aquarium water and tap water have been exactly the same without need for adjustment.

That last PH problem is a stinker. If power goes out, it is time to service the filter getting rid of as much organics as possible, but DO NOT STERILIZE. This is critical because without water flow, your filter will become anaerobic very quickly and kill beneficial bacteria. Some people make the mistake of using chlorinated tap water to clean up, which can kill a lot of the bacteria. The filter bacteria colony is more important than the fish when it comes to an easy to maintain system. It is also why if you ever need to medicate, it is best to take the filter out of the system for a while, just relying on water changes to see the fish through.

BTW it can take a few weeks for a filter to stabilize, and in the case of a heavy load, you start a filter this way:
1. Set up aquarium with new filter, etc. salt, buffering, and so on.Get it running.
2. See if you can grab a little used filter media from someone else to seed the filter. You may be able to simply swish you filter media around in some pond water to pick up some pond flora. Stuff it somewhere into your filter.
3. Let settle for a couple of days with everything running. This is the time to monitor PH, Nitrates and Nitrites if any are present. It is this time period where there will be wild swings in almost all parameters, and where most people fail at starting a new aquarium since they don't want to wait for things to settle.
4. Start adding fish, just a few hardy "break-in" fish. These guys will feed the filter. Feed them as much as they are willing to eat. You want them to "do their business" Wait a couple more days.
5. Check your PH, and nitrogen compounds for a little while longer until they stay the same and your "toughies" seem to be happy.
6. Start adding your desired fish. Preferable a few at a time to let the filter catch up.

I am unsure how to accelerate this process, maybe have the filter running water from an already established aquarium in tandem with the existing filter, and use some existing water as well in the new setup, but then you tend to run a higher risk of disease transferal.

As far as power outages, use a computer UPS to keep the filter and any aeration systems running. Don't bother with a heater from the UPS, they take too much power. The problem with congested aquariums is that without power, you are done on only a day or two. A UPS may give you enough time to get through to when the power is back on. An aquarium that size with a lid will stay fairly warm for quite a long time, and even more if it is insulated.

You probably want an "emergency heater" just to keep the temperature from going below 39 degrees. Any old 100W heater will do if you can set it that low. You may need 2 of them, but to raise the temp only a few degrees wont take much. The circulation pump may be enough already as that will add heat to the system, especially if it is a submerged pump.

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Bruce - IMO try to keep the water above 50F for decent functioning of the denitrifying bacteria. Kevin Ripp at the PBV might be able to help with some ammonia reducing bacteria for your situation. Ask how salt and lower temps will affect denitrifying bacteria. contact him:
http://www.teamaquafix.com/ask-the-bugman/


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Bruce:

If you could put a heater in the system and could keep the water at warmer temp, would you?

I know the risk of disease is there when using water from a pond, but if the fish will be released into that BOW, then if you used water from that BOW to fill your RAS at the start (if using a filter system rather than a flow thru system) wouldn't that jump start the filter system?

Even with a flow thru system I think I have a way so you could heat the water..........


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Here's how I've done the filter--and I promise to post pictures later. wink

The fish are in 225 gallons of water, which was put in the tank and treated with heavy doses of chlorine four months before the project started, in order to sterilize.

About three weeks before fish introduction the water was treated for any residual chlorine/chloramines, and then two weeks before introduction, a pump was set up to bring water up above the tank, and the end of the hose was covered with five tube socks. Five sentinal fish were put in the tank, and the pump ran continuously for ten days without any mortalities. Twice during this time, the tube socks were turned inside out, and rinsed of solids in the wastewater tank (125 gallons) that sits below the main fish holding tank. The tube socks were also filled on the end with several bio-balls.

When the 420 new fish were introduced, they were handled carefully. The water clouded up with an organic/protein looking particulate that lasted about six hours.

I just now tested the pH with some strips I found from my old fish farm, and the pH is straight-up 7.0.

The fish are feeding like crazy in the tank, which concerns me a little bit, because I'm likely to "push the envelope" when given a chance. I'll try to be careful.

Essup...very interested in your ideas. I would ideally like the water temperature to be around 60-70 all winter, but my initial calculations were that this was going to cost a fortune. I think I can keep the ambient air temperature above 32 F., but anything above that is unlikely.

Liquidsquid, is your pH usually around 7.0? I'm just wondering how I'm going to respond if the pH starts to crash. Should I have the calcium chloride on hand? Could this happen quickly?



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Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
AES has an excellent selection of feeders.

Strongly agree with your statement JKB. That's why I need to know what sort of parameters I should be checking regularly and how to do so.

Ammonia rings a bell...


Here is a pretty decent test kit. If you have DO, PH and Temp meters, you can get the other kit that excludes these tests.

LaMotte Test Kit

AES sells these.

Spend a few bucks (20.00 or so) and get a TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) meter. This is a good indication of when your water is "tired" and needs to be changed. High dissolved solids can also kill your fish.

A Refractometer or salinity meter for measuring salinity or salt concentration. I like Conductivity myself. A Salinity meter is basically a Conductivity meter with the appropriate Algorithm applied.

If you are going down to 40F with your biofilter, careful consideration is due here. Your two best bet's for going that low are going to be an RBC (Rotating Biological Contactor), or an MBBR (Moving Bed Biofilm Reactor).

You'll need some methodology of removing solids. Many ways to do this.

Expect water changes with prepared water (if you are adding salt and need to adjust PH and such) to be a bit more than previously stated. The less water you have to exchange, the greater the equipment cost will be.

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JKB, I'm removing solids with a big siphon I've rigged up. I'm planning on removing about ten gallons/day from the bottom of the tank with the siphon as I target visible solids--then I replace with ten gallons from the pre-treatment tank, which has about 400 gallons in reserve. This is filled with our rural water--which I just found out has no chlorine or chloramine according to the website.

I'm still looking to figure out how much salt to add. Seems like a great idea, but also a great opportunity to screw things up.


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2-4PPT (parts per thousand) on your salt. You can add too much. If you are using a biofilter, that will take the first hit with too much salt.

Double check on the municipal water. If they are pumping it to your house, it is required by law that they disinfect it. There are other chemicals in use now.

Sounds like a lot of work with the siphons and all.


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Should I just start at 1-2 ppt on the salt and work up from there? Stupid question perhaps, but is there a "brand" of salt I should be using? Where would you look to acquire the right kind of salt?


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Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
Should I just start at 1-2 ppt on the salt and work up from there? Stupid question perhaps, but is there a "brand" of salt I should be using? Where would you look to acquire the right kind of salt?


1-2ppt to start OK. If it fluctuates a bit, that's OK. You can gradually increase/decrease. Won't hurt your fish, but your biofilter may have a WT? moment if it get's a radical spike. Did that oops, but it was only baitfish.

I like Kosher salt (I make pickles) without additives. You can use "non iodized" table salt. Many others out there as well.

The only two I have used were Kosher and Sea Salt. Sea Salt is expensive.

I'm working on a WE rig right now for next spring. I'll probably end up with 5000 dead 2-3" WE eek

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