Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Georgia Giant Growth Rates

Too late Robinson! I bought it from my microbe guy Now I only need to get my footpaths finished.


Chip

Claims on the website (Ken's):

1. can be stocked at 5000/acre.
2. livestock breeders work hard to prevent inbreeding, this causes stunting in fish.
3. known to make 33% gain in fall, winter and early spring.
4. selling hybrids since 1971.
5. GG grows 3x faster than others.

claim on this topic:

1.haven't had time for research.
2. "I am a scientist not a salesman"

34 years isn't enough time to do the research, eh. But it was plenty of time to make the bold assertions in claims 1,3, and 5. I guess those are just bs claims since there is no research behind it to show.
As for livestock. How do you think all of these different varieties of domestics are developed? As a matter of fact, inbreeding is used intensively in pure breds and breed development, and it does not necessarily lead to stunting. Are flemish giant rabbits, percheron stallions, and english mastiffs stunted? Crowding causes stunting, if you can produce proof that inbreeding always causes stunting, produce it!
As for 5000/acre, I can believe that. But only if in a monoculture fish farm scenario, as they are not sterile and would reproduce and stunt. they would need to be in a mixed population with predator species, which would then make the stocking rate far too high.

If you are scientist, act like one. Show some science. Even if you are, you would certainly agree that your company is without a doubt engaging in deceptive messaging in the form of its claims. They assertions use scientific and factual language, yet you admit that in 34 years there is no real research and there hasn't been time?

If your a scientist go back to school, if your a salesman admit it. I strongly encourage anyone to visit the Ken's site, and compare the claims to reality and your own admissions of this thread.

As for the fish upside the head, HIT ME WITH IT!!!!! It would be the closest thing to scientific evidence you have shown.

I don't think the flame was necessary. I believe it is already a known fact that the georgia giant is still a bluegill hybrid at heart. Some people are willing to deal with the work of having a bluegill hybrid since they consistently produce better fish then BG fisheries, for the first 2-3 years anyway. That is why the conversations continue. It is not a cheaper option in the long run than the regular BG/LMB pond. That is a fact. Its just that some people will foot the bill for bigger, better fish even if its only for the first 2-3 years.

Consult the post in this area call "Hybrid Sunfish Explained" by Bill Cody for more info and elaboration on hybrids.

Allchca,

Heck some fools have even been known to stock a fish which dies out every time it gets a little cold and even worse is very difficult to catch (and costs more than a GG)...can you imagine any fool who would do such a thing?

signed, a fool for two seasons running and Dang happy about it!

ML :

I know a few folks who do that and a bunch more who use t. shad which have less utility ( don't know anyone who eats TS). But interestingly they all are smart folks who understand the science behind what they are putting in the pond and the results which follow . Plus if they make a mistake it is self correcting when it gets cold. Not much risk involved. ewest

EWEST,

I don't see any risk at all involved in stocking a small pond with GG's with the objective of the GG being the end in itself and not a means to an end.

About the worst thing that can happen is that they only grow as fast as a regular BG, but the price is the same regardless if its GG, CNBG, or RES.

Maybe one risk...that some of you will ridicle me or Gator if the experiment fails, but hey, I've had those slams before for trying something new and expect to get them again. I'm in this for fun, not to win a Nobel prize.

The important thing is to do what Deb says, view the GG as an end in itself not a means to an end. I think many people perhaps make a mistake in that regard....and are very disappointed as a result. Let's see what happens to trying this as an end itself, not a means to an end. Once we catch all or most of the original GG's, we start over again....assuming the experiment is successful, that is.

If it works, it will provide my family with a great small "perch jerking pond" to compliment other ponds which have other purposes, such as the growth of catchable LMB, HSB, and diverse fishing experiences. No, I don't see a big risk at all.

ML, I agree in that case, except if off spring are inferior you might have to drain in a few years compared to CNBG. They have there place but believe me they are stocked in many situations where folks did not have the goals you mention, that is my gripe.

Well, Greg, if people choose to stock incorrectly, then shame on them...if Deb or her company recommends GG for purposes other than that which is intended/designed, e.g. part of a trophy LMB program, then shame on her.

As yet, I have not seen Deb do that.

Why are we back to inferior offspring. Is not the predator base to prevent this? HSB and/or LMB will surely clean up the babies, especially in a new pond without much cover.

As O'reilly would say, "where am I wrong here?"

ML :

My comment regarded risk in the abstract. It was not refering to your kids pond ,or Gator, or anyone doing an expir. with knowledge or anyone using tilapia or TS. It is simply that the result of using tilapia or TS or for that matter crappie are known while with GG you don't know what you end up with. For most pond owners starting over is not an acceptable risk option. For small ponds or those with knowledge renovation may well be an acceptable risk. ewest

Not to argue, but I think this is part of the mis-communication regarding GG.

GG, the original stocker, not the offspring, is the end objective. That is the target fish. It is NOT a means to an end. How can it be stated any clearer?

When the original stockers are gone, you start over, assuming you like the results from the originals. What about that is risky? A three year cycle is what I expect. If it lasts longer, then its a bonus. I already have the pump to start over. Maybe my grandkids will be so hooked on fishing by then they will be ready to "graduate" to other fish...maybe I will like the GG's so much on the fly rod, I'll not graduate myself. I don't know. I just want to have some fun with these, and I fully intend to do just that.

Actually, I'm thinking a side benefit might well be some grown-out HSB that I can then move to my larger ponds. I see this as part of a system...a system of ponds...designed to meet multiple objectives to please several types of fishing. I fail to see any risk, other than those I mentioned previously.

Meadowlark, can you get GG? I haven't asked around but I wouldn't mind getting a few as pets if the local fish farms have them.

BrianH,

If I work out a deal with Deb, they will be delivered sometime in late November. At her recommended stocking rates I'm sure I wouldn't miss a few if they became your pets...but you would have to either come near my place or where Gator has his delivered to pick them up.

A better approach might be to contact her about shipping you a few...just don't tell her the size of your tank or she will apply her stocking rates to that also... just kidding of course.

You can probably buy hybrid BG here in Texas, but some folks have about phased them out because they didn't see much growth benefit. It remains to be seen if the true GG do provide that growth as stated. If you want a few of mine, just let me know. I'm happy to oblige.

Alright, now I have a 90 gallon tank sitting with no fish in it. I have a GG supplier about an hour away. Now you have got me thinking outside the pond :rolleyes: . I have successfully spawned bluegill in this tank before and had no mortality of the origional stockers. I used a 35 gallon wet/dry system with protein skimmer. Hmm.... I wonder what kind of growth rates I am looking at. Any suggestions on stocking rates minus predator? And what to do with offspring if it should happen? Man my head is spinning. Future post and photos to come soon .

Ml, I see your point and agree she has not sold fish here to bass pond clinets, in fact stated clearly not suggested pratice. However have bass clients that have followed GG stocking and yes maybe shame on them I was not there to hear the conversation, point taken.

Burger, why back to offspring b/c this will happen eventually and have for years stated like ML about 3 yr window of good results. My questions for Deb is that she states some ponds continue good growth for 20 yearts, how does she explain that one? You are not suggesting GG live that long, :p

I will be away from computer for a couple weeks, keep it inline Deb,

ML great offer but I didn't want to go through much effort. Where is your place?

Greg Quote: "My questions for Deb is that she states some ponds continue good growth for 20 yearts, how does she explain that one? You are not suggesting GG live that long,"

I do not believe I ever stated that ponds continue good growth for 20 years. What I did say was that "Bubba" the 5 pounder, was in a pond that had been stocked with GG 20 years prior. Was he an original? We do not know because Ken got so excited when the customer brought the fish in that he did not do a proper scale sample (Ken still hangs his head in dismay for not doing this).
This is it in a nutshell:
Stock heavier than normal (meaning "the standard state recommendation") with the GG's and predators (one to five) to prevent most all of the offspring from growing up. Catch and release the GG's, or catch and eat then restock later down the road. Will you grow trophy LMB? No! Can you grow decent size fish of variety? Yes! If the catch and release program is followed you will get many years of good growth on the GG. I personally like the GG, HSB, and gambusias in a pond. But this is my preference, and everyone has their own. Every pondowner is responsible for their own pond.
Let's use Greg for example: A customer comes to Greg in need of pond maintenance and possible stocking options. Greg gets the history that he can from the customer and then makes recommendations based on what the customer wants to get out of the pond. Greg sells the guy some fish, chemicals, and/or equipment, and then the guy goes on his merry way. At what point does responsibility change hands? If the gentleman went home and did the exact opposite of what Greg recommended and then suffered a fish kill, chances are he would blame Greg. But it would not be Greg's fault, would it?
My point is that regardless of whether we stock, manage or advise ponds/pondowners, final responsibilty rests with the customer. It is our job to aid them, but we don't always have all the facts laid out for us. Now please nobody jump off on a tangent about me shucking responsibility, because truth be told we replace thousands of fish yearly for customers who purchased fish and then killed them within a day or two because they had high ammonia, low pH, or they did not temp them properly. Do we have to do this? No, but it is the way we handle business!

Back to the start of this post (with Greg's comment), what is the oldest freshwater fish anyone has seen? Anybody can answer, I am just curious!

Thanks,
Deb

Aaron :

Look at this and see if you are interested. ewest

Out-of-Season Spawning of Sunfish Lepomis spp. in the Laboratory
CHARLES C. MISCHKE and JOSEPH E. MORRIS

Department of Animal Ecology, Iowa State University, 124 Science II, Antes, Iowa 50011, USA

Abstract.—Although propagation of sunfish Lepomis spp. has historically been done in earthen ponds, there is interest in producing these fish in the laboratory. The objective of this study was to spawn sunfish out of season by means of temperature and photoperiod manipulation. By manipulating temperature and photoperiod, we were able to spawn bluegills L. machrochirus over a 6-month period (December 1994–May 1995): 41 spawns. averaging 20.000 larvae each, were obtained from 24 females. By manipulation of photoperiod alone, we were able to spawn fish during a 3-month period (October–December 1995): 21 bluegill spawns of about 20.000 larvae each and 7 spawns of hybrid sunfish (female green sunfish L. cyanellus × male bluegills) of about 10,000 larvae each were obtained from 12 female bluegills and 24 female green sunfish, respectively. This protocol allows for production of sunfish larvae, regardless of season and without the use of hormones, for both laboratory studies and aquaculture stocking.

Deb wrote:

Back to the start of this post (with Greg's comment), what is the oldest freshwater fish anyone has seen? Anybody can answer, I am just curious!

I worte:

deb the stergon gets REALLY OLD!!!!

but I know the bluecat can get as OLD as 30 years.....

Big Pond :

I bet that mekong catfish that was on here about 6 mths ago was a lot older than 30. ewest

By Katie Kalmerton
Published: Thursday, October 13, 2005
Article Tools: Page 1 of 1
Media Credit: Zeb Hogan

Media Credit: Zeb Hogan
The world´s largest freshwater fish: a giant 646 lb. catfish caught by fishermen in northern Thailand.

Media Credit: Zeb Hogan
Zeb Hogan holds a Taiman. These fish can grow to two meters in length and weigh up to 450 lb.

Weighing 646 pounds and measuring 8'10" in length, a goliath catfish was hauled in off the coasts of Thailand this year.

It was later recorded in the Guinness Book of World Records as the largest freshwater fish.

The locals attempted to keep the fish alive and free it. However, it died and was used for food.

This giant fish was not a freak of nature by any means. The goliath catfish was once up to 99 percent more prevalent in the Mekong River of Indochina. Presently, giant fish-defined as fish six feet in length or longer and 200 pounds or more-are becoming scarce worldwide.

In collaboration with National Geographic, the World Wildlife Fund, the World Conservation Union, also known as IUCN and researchers at UW-Madison, Zeb Hogan, a post doctoral fellow at the center for limnology at UW-Madison, began a global project in November to identify the world's largest freshwater fish.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=001790

big_pond,
You're right Sturgen can live for over 100 yrs & grow over 10 ft!

Some how I came across this thread on google. Does anybody have a picture of this Bubba fish.

I stocked some of the early GG in the 90's and got some really great fish. It seemed to me that I did not get the same growth from the GG later ordered as they got more popular. The original fish will be the largest and each folling generation seem to get smaller and smaller. The way Ken explained it to me in the 90's was the first delivered are a F1 breed and each hatch drops in size and would not be as large as the group before.

Holy Cow! Thanks Tums. What did that thing weigh?