Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Large Mouth or Hybrid Stripers

My Pond was re-constructed after drying out last summer in the drought. It is doing well, full and "happy". In early March I stocked 200 1-3" CNBG, 100 3-6" CNBG, 100 3-6" RSF, and 5 #'s of FHM, and I have been feeding lightly since April. The Pond is only 1/2 acre, and while I know I need to add some predators at some point, I am reluctant to use LMB as my Goal is to raise good size eating CNBG's, not LMB. It seems to me that the HSB would be a good choice for this purpose as they will not propagate, but the question I have is how many to stock? Adding enough to control CNBG population without wiping them out. I guess I'm not sure as to when to add the predators also, this fall or early next spring? If anyone can help with your thoughts and ideas I would appreciate it, Thanks......................Budster

Are you going to feed ? What about aeration ? How deep is the pond?

I'll be watching this closely. My newest pond now has 2-4 inch redear sunfish, 3-4 inch hybrid bluegill, 4-5 inch channel cats, and a bunch of fatheads/rosy reds. This pond is intended as a put-and-take pond, mainly for kids and the elderly. It intentionally has no structure, except for some places for the fatheads to sneak into for a little love and bliss. It currently only has about 6-8 inches of visibility, due to the turbidity of building it (it is about 5 weeks old, and has been at full pool from week 2). I expect it will clear by spring with a 2-4 foot visibility. It has steep sides, so I don't expect a lot of weeds. If I do get some weeds, I'll add a few grass carp.

I'm not yet quite sure what to use as the predator to keep the hybrid bluegill offspring under control. I don't think the channel cats will be enough. I feel that LMB will be just too hard to manage.

I plan to put rainbow and golden trout into the pond for the cool season, and they may be enough to keep the number of offspring real low. I'm tending towards adding a small number of hybrid striped bass. I just don't want to add any largemouth bass. The RES are in there to keep the snail population down. If their offspring get eaten, I can always add more when I add hybrid bluegill each year.

Thanks,
Ken

George1 has experience with the CNBG-HSB combination in a smaller pond similar to yours. Hopefully he will share his insight on this. You might be somewhat behind in the stocking stratigy if usine HSB due to their reproduction getting a head start. Lets hear what George says.

Here is some background from George on the topic as your homework.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=132149
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96494
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=281600http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279603


George uses tipaia for algae control in this small pond.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=185530

Sorry I missed this post ….

A small ¼ acre pond can be a jewel in the rough following simple guidelines I have addressed before. I know the Eric is not a believer of “natural” ponds by his definition, but I put a twist on it …

The secret to controlling overpopulation of CNBG in a small pond is HSB predation and catfish in appropriate numbers, whether one BC or a few CC.

Our ¼ acre pond currently has NO aeration, occasional hand feeding, and I have NEVER have had a fish kill. We continue to catch a few trophy size CNBG and an occasional 4-5 lb HSB almost every trip. I keep thinking I have caught them all because haven’t restocked in about 3 years – BUT – I revive them in an O2 live well and just keep on catching them. They are not as fat as feed trained HSB but are the most fun fly rod fish to catch in a pond.

Bud, the only concern I would have for your small pond is that you are located in East Texas which is noted for acidic water and successful HSB programs in southern waters require high alkalinity – check your water quality - you probably know all about this stuff but may have to lime heavily but should be no problem in a small pond.

The only documented failure of HSB in small ponds in Southern waters that I am aware of was Meadowlark’s East Texas Piney Woods pond.

I would stock FHM first until they they are so thick the water turns black - then stock Overton's HSB abd pure Florida CNBG in numbers he recommends.

Good luck on your pond – small ponds are fun!
George

Picture below is HSB caught a couple of weeks ago – they don’t grow as large as James, Nate’s or Cason’s big ponds but mine are better ‘cause I catch mine on a fly rod …. :>)
Pardon my big hands ...

Thanks George. BTW our ponds are natural. Only have very limited supp. feeding.

Bud, I missed your existing stocking rates and time to stock predators.
You should have a pond full of FHM and CNBG by fall – I would stock 100 6-8 inch HSB this fall if that is the route you have decided to go.
Also if you do the HSB thing, they may need BC help in controlling the CNBG by following year - watch size and numbers of 8-9 inch CNBG which you should have by next spring.
George

Thanks for the info. George 1.

I thought my stocking schedule was about right, I just didn't when the CNBG population would have grown to the right numbers. I am a little surprised by the number of HSB you recomend, 100 seems like a lot for a 1/2 acre pond, but that's why I asked for help, because I was not sure. If i continue to feed the CNBG's will the HSB eventually start eating pellets or will they prefer the CNBG's if they are in big enough numbers? The pond is only about 6' deep at the deepest, probably 4' deep on average, and I surface aerate 24/7, and top off with well water. The pond tends to be low alkalinity, but have the opportunity to lime with liquid lime soon. I will add a small amount of lime to start and go at it slowly. Thanks again for in-put george I appreciate it.....................Budster

Budster, I would feed the CNBG on the heavy side, until or if they slow down with hot weather ...... then slow down and stop feeding when HSB become acclimated.
Get the HSB on natural forage as soon as possible.
I love to throw in a handful of feed to see the commotion.

George:

If I continue to feed after the HSB are in and acclimated, will they start to feed on the pellets along with the CNBG or will they be satisfied with predating on the CNBG's.

Thanks again......................Budster

George,

Have you found a correlation between the size of HSB and the size of the sunfish that they can consume?

Being as far north as I am, I can't grow CNBG, so I chose HBG, RES, and CC for our new 1/4 acre put-and-take pond. This pond is intended for underprivileged/handicapped kids and the elderly. The dam is built so that a large van with wheel chair lifts can easily offload and load passengers.

I feel I will need a top line predator to control the hybrid bluegill offspring, and I plan to replenish the HBG annually. I'm just not sure if 15-20 inch HSB will be capable of eating 3-4 inch HBG. I'm also thinking I will need to replenish my RES, and I usually can only get them in the 2-3 inch size. I'm not worried about the catfish, as I can usually get them in the 6-8 inch range, or larger. So far, I have not added a top line predator, and I really would like one that doesn't reproduce.

Also, I'm curious why you suggest getting the HSB on natural forage as soon as possible. I am currently, and was planning on, feeding the hybrid bluegill and channel cats to satiation every day. The new pond does have lots of sex crazed rosy reds and fatheads that are making babies pretty fast.

In my other pond, feeding the northern strain bluegill and catfish to satiation everyday means feeding the HSB too. The HSB certainly make a spectacular show when feeding.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ken

Based on my experience, if acclimated on natural forage for longer period of time, they will prefer natural forage .
The first 100, 4-6 inch HSB stocked in new 1/4 acre pond full of FHM, never got feed trained.

IMO, I believe if you stock this year 4-6 inch HSB spawn early enough, your chances will improve over 8-10 inch HSB that have been on pellets for a longer period of time.

Ken, I am unable to make a correlation because when BG get too large for HSB, my lone BC takes over, leaving me trophy CNBG.

As I mentioned to Budster, my first stocking of 4-6 inch HSB into a new ¼ acre pond full of FHM, NEVER got on pellets!
I thought they were all dead until my son said he was catching them on small spinner baits . I tried it and caught 16 fat HSB in a row to move to main pond. Caught many others from at the time brood pond.

Regards,
George

I think George's heavy stocking rate in the small pond results in strong predation pressure on the small BG which is necessary to minimize over population of BG.

In Catmandoo's situation since you are using HBG the numbers of HSb should or would not need to be as high as George's example. IMO HSB will definately consume sunfish that are appropriate to the HSB mouth size. It will take a pretty large HSB (18"+?) to routinely eat a 4" sunfish.

Bill, in light of Budster's "Goal is to raise good size eating CNBG's", another reason for the high HSB stocking rate is that he is going to discover how much fun they are to catch and better table fare than BG .. IMO ...

After initial stocking, numbers should be replaced annually to replace those taken for the table and C&R morts.

Budster, as mentined before, critical hardness and alkalinity levels are required for a sucessful HSB program.
Consult with a fisheries biologist before you "pull the trigger" on HSB stocking.

I don't want to be drug through the mud for another East Texas HSB failure.
George

george:

Thanks for the "heads-up". I will be sure to pay critical attention to Alkalinity. My pastures are regularly tested and limed for Horse Hay production so the ability to control Alkalinity in the pond is at hand. We use liquid lime so spraying into the Pond around the perimeter is fairly easy and effective, the accurate testing for Ph, in the Pond, is not so easy.

Thanks again.................Budster

Budster, careful need to distinguish between alkalinity and hardness. Total hardness, which is concentration of minerals such as calcium and magnesium in freshwater, needs to be at least 20ppm for HSB stocking. Alkalinity is buffering capacity, measured in concentration of carbonate and bicarbonates, also needs to be at least 20ppm for good results also IMO.

I support George's recommendation of 100 HSBs in 1/2 acre. This provides enough fish for CNBG pressure and allows room for you to remove slow growers and buffer for you to lose some fish to natural causes over time.

I am not a fan of the liquid lime used in ponds. I took chemistry and all in college, but still need someone to explain how tons of crude calcium carbonate (lime) can somehow be equal in effectiveness to a small number of gallons of liquid lime. Crude powdered ag lime can raise hardness also, but I would have very little faith in using liquid lime to raise hardness.

I have some HSBs in my aquarium that avg about 1 lb in size that will easily gulp a 3" bluegill. HSBs can have more potential impact on bluegill populations than many realize.

Thanks Todd:

The hardness of the Pond is 54ppm at last check. I top off with well water that tests at 188 ppm Hardness out of the ground. The well water is typically high in iron for wells in East Texas, it tested at 1.6, high but not too high to be a problem.

I have not been able to test the Alkalinity, however it is probably low due to the swings in Ph from AM to PM, 7.2 to 9.0 on a hot sunny day. As you know most East Texas soil is on the acidic side so some type of lime treatment will be necessary, however, I will have it tested first to be sure.

I'm not sure how to explain the properties of liquid lime other than to say the stuff is extremely heavy. It requires a "mongo" size pump
on the spray rig to survive pushing that stuff out. My neighbor cuts and bails 550 acres around me, and swears by it, has used it for years with good results. That's about all I can say, sure makes it easier to lime a pond, spraying it 30' into the water instead of spreading from a small boat, (load and shovel, load and shovel,etc.).

Thanks again, I'll see you guys in September..............Budster

Been measuring BG size vs HSB gape capability. At first glace it doesn't appear possible for a 18" HSB to manage anything beyond a 3" BG. However, through angling experiments I am already up to 4.5" with 18" HSB and will continue to increase the sizes to try and determine their gape limits. Not sure the top end yet, and it seems to defy what one can discern at first glance of the appearance of HSB limited gape. Hard for me to believe - but have proof positive at the end of my line.

Despite my heavy stocking of HSB in my fishery, why then do the BG population appear to continue to expand and stunt? I think my heavy feeding program helps take pressure off the BG - it has to. If not driven by hunger will a HSB hunt the shallows/vegetation for BG when there are defenseless floating cheeseburgers available?

While I agree HSB will rely on BG as forage, and also agree they can manage larger BG than appears possible, I also think an aggressive feeding program takes significant pressure off the BG population as forage items as other's suggest here.

If you want HSB to manage your BG population, limit or eliminate your pellet program and rely on aquatic invertabrates to grow your BG. I support that recommendation mentioned here by other HSB veterans...I just don't have the guts to stop the feeding...but I should, and measure the impact on my BG population.

Agreed!

TJ, if you want to get your HSB on natural forage you have to stop feeding for some time, depending upon size of stockers. With no large predators and good FHM/BG forage base, stock fingerling HSB - they may never get on pellets.
Large HSB stockers are harder to forage train.

And therein lies the rub. At least where growing trophy BG is concerned. I understand your hesitation regarding suspending your feeding program, TJ... I sure wouldn't be in favor of it in my ponds.

I'm beginning to see artificial feeding in a different light. Keeping in mind that I'm referring to HBG, not native BG. I once considered pellet feeding as a supplemental source, with natural forage comprising the majority of my fish's diet. Now I see it the other way around, with artificial feed being the primary source, and natural forage being supplemental. Having a natural forage source would be great, but I think it carries with it an unacceptable risk...that being the neccessity of providing cover for the forage itself, if there is to be any chance of it becoming self-sustaining. That same cover can also be utilized by yoy fish, and when it comes to HBG, or even BG, I don't consider that a good thing, especially in a small pond.

I use LMB to control both my BG and my HBG, because they are cheap and plentiful. In three years of management over the HBG pond, I have yet to see any recruitment from either HBG, or LMB. I'm sure there must be some of both, but their numbers are evidently so small as to not be cause for concern. They don't show up in traps, or by angling.

I'm cautiously wondering if I have struck a balance of a different sort, in which the population is not self-sustaining, but rather self-limiting. I'm hopeful, but only time will tell.

The majority of BG in my pond did NOT come from a hatchery, so they didn't learn to eat pellets at a young age. I still have very few BG eating pellets, even using a feeder. The majority of them are eating natural forage in the pond, and look it.

So, it might depend on where the fish came from too. The LMB in the pond are feed trained, and eat pellets, but they are really hammering the natural forage. I purposely overstocked the pond with BG last Fall, putting in somewhere around 2,000 3" stunted BG that were seined/trapped from another pond. (I gave up counting them once I passed 1,500 fish) Very few survived the winter, and I still think my pond is BG light. I even fed the trout all winter long. The fishing rule is every LMB, no matter what the size is to be removed if it doesn't have a tag in it. There are 40 tagged LMB in the pond.

Thanks big TJ.

I know what you're thinking George. The shocker boat may reveal some HSBs on CNBG forage in main pond and off pellets almost entirely .

I think I mentioned this above -- but, whatever. This is a really interesting thread.

My newest pond, which is only a quarter acre, is planned as put-and-take. Primarily hybrid bluegill and channel cats. I added RES to keep down potential parasites. It also has a reproducing population of fatheads/rosy-reds.

I'm still at a loss for a top line predator for the HBG. I was planning on using HSB, but if, as Todd says, a 1 lb. HSB can gobble a 3 inch BG, then I'm not sure how I would keep a HBG population, since that is about the maximum size HBG I can buy locally. I was hoping to add small HBG and small CC each spring to supplement what has been taken out, but I still need something too keep the RES, HBG and CC recruitment from going out of control.

Do I just put in one small hungry LMB each springtime, and hopefully pull it out when after totally gorging itself on newly hatched fish?

Thanks,
Ken