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#308830 - 10/10/12 10:27 PM Aquamax vs.Live Forage
roadwarriorsvt Offline


Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 621
Loc: Wahiawa, HI
If any Pond Boss Conferance atendees want to pose this question at the appropriate time, feel free.

My fishing club's hatchery had a spawn back in Feb/2012. The fry were fed brine shrimp, then ground krill, then ground up pellets (not Aquamax). Once all the fingerlings were pellet trained, I took 200 home to my 625 gal. tub. I've been feeding them Aquamax 500 4-5 times a day.

Here is my question. I've heard and read on this forum that it takes about 10 lbs. of forage for a bass to put on 1 lb. of weight and only 1.8 lbs. of Aquamax pellets for a bass to put on 1 lb. of weight. Another club member took bass back to his house and has been feeding then 100% live bait, mainly small talopias. His bass are 50-75% larger than my Aquamax bass! Any opinions as to why? Thanks for any info.

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#308839 - 10/11/12 02:16 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
esshup Offline
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What's your water quality vs. his?
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#308843 - 10/11/12 05:09 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
roadwarriorsvt Offline


Registered: 03/09/11
Posts: 621
Loc: Wahiawa, HI
I'm not certain of his, but I have an Ultima II 4000 and a 25 watt UV sterilizer for my 600+ gallon pond and do 20-30% water changes weekly.

And thank you for taking the time to assist with my question, especially after driving 600+ miles and attending the PB Con V. I appreciate your time. Now go to the Buzzard Bar and relax!


Edited by roadwarriorsvt (10/11/12 05:15 AM)

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#308902 - 10/11/12 11:31 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
esshup Offline
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Oh heck no! We got 3.5 hr of sleep, got up to hit the first conference in the morning, grabbed ran to the tournament, ran back to the hotel to change clothes and then back to the meet and greet at the convention. We bailed out at 9:00 p.m. to be back at the conference at 7:00 a.m. tomorrow. Buzzard Bar tomorrow night for sure.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#309170 - 10/15/12 11:57 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: esshup]
esshup Offline
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Well I'm back home and we actually never made it to the Buzzard Bar at all.

Some things that contribute to slower growing fish are:
Stress
Poorer water quality
Higher fish density (that would be under both of the above depending on quality of filtration)
Water Temp

In talking with the Purina Rep at the Conference, he said that from Fingerling to about 2#, the FCR on LMB being fed their food is right around 1.7.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#309172 - 10/15/12 12:25 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
ewest Offline
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Pellets are good for LMB but not better for them than the real thing. One of the big reasons pellets work (for all fish that eat them) is they work both sides of the energy euqation. That is , not only are they a good source of nutrition they require no to little energy use to consume. Energy in (food) minus energy out (biological functions including energy spent to catch the prey) equuals growth. With pellets you get energy in plus reduced energy out ( both sides of the energy equation - no energy capture cost) thus good growth. In studies with BG the results were adding pellets supplementally is between 3 and 8X more efficient.

The energy capture cost is much more apparent in a pond (thus the 3-8X) than an aquarium where the prey fish are easier to catch - thus bigger growth differences show up more in the aquarium. Again while pellets are good and getting better they do not yet , on an energy in basis match a diet of properly sized natural forage for LMB. That is why itís called supplemental feeding. Not addressing the differences in long term nutrient content between pellets and natural forage for LMB with this comment.
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#309203 - 10/15/12 04:13 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
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Was any other feed producers invited to the conference or is aquamax kinda an exclusive type deal?
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#309205 - 10/15/12 04:45 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Chad Fikes Offline
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Loc: Whitesboro, TX
Cargill feed was also there, they had some interesting things to say. Still would like to talk with them a little more to understand their philosophies.

I agree with ewest completely. I realize that you are raising those fish in a controlled environment but you might consider using both pellets and live forage for increased growth. When managing feed trained bass in a pond environment I never rely soley on pellets alone, I always use additional forage.

Also I would ask what is your feeding schedule, how much food are you feeding, what amount of fish are eating or not eating? etc.
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#309215 - 10/15/12 05:23 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: esshup]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: esshup


In talking with the Purina Rep at the Conference, he said that from Fingerling to about 2#, the FCR on LMB being fed their food is right around 1.7.


Humbug! grin That's a best case scenario in a lab where no feed is wasted as in fish are fed exact percentages of their weight etc. after periodic weights are taken of the fish. Sorry I don't buy it for general application. wink My guess is conversion is really in the 2 range.

Great sales pitch though.



Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/15/12 05:24 PM)
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#309218 - 10/15/12 05:42 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Bill Cody Offline
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The Purina booth and the associated presentation had two LMB one fed Gamefish Chow and one fed Aquamax for around I think 4 months. The test fish were in a cage. Aquamax fish was about 1.5" inches longer and had better body condition (Wr aka RW). I should have taken a picture of those two fish that were taxidermy mounted on a display board. Did anyone get that picture? I told Bob he should try to get them to write-up their presentation for the magazine.


Edited by Bill Cody (10/15/12 05:48 PM)
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#309220 - 10/15/12 06:00 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
ewest Offline
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Both Purina and Cargill were there with their experts and both sets spoke at some point in the Conf. Some very good info from both.
We are attempting to get larger scale data on results but not there yet.

I think Bob is going to put all the Power Point presentations up on the main web site.
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#309243 - 10/15/12 08:52 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Bill Cody Offline
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The main thing that I concluded about Cargill feeds after talking with the 3 reps is where or how to conveniently get the higher protein feed and not have to buy a whole pallet? similar to the problem with Silver Cup feeds. One of the Cargill reps told me that shipping cost of one bag would be close to the cost of the bag of feed. What I don't understand is the lower protein Cargill 32% (Sportsman Choice Trophy Feed) is available at Tractor Supply stores why not also stock the higher protein feed? - dumb in my opinion.


Edited by Bill Cody (10/15/12 09:06 PM)
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#309245 - 10/15/12 09:06 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
ewest Offline
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Same reason many Co-ops stock GFC but not AM. Some TSC also stock GFC and Cargill's SC .

If Cargill is only doing by the pallet they won't make much headway with recreational fisheries.


Edited by ewest (10/15/12 09:09 PM)
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#309246 - 10/15/12 09:08 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Like I said above - dumb on someone's part. Why can't Cargill add one or a few bags to the shrink wrapped pallet in the delivery to Tractor Supply??. That is how I get my special order Purina high protein Amax smaller sized feeds such as 5D001, 002, 003, and 004.


Edited by Bill Cody (10/15/12 09:11 PM)
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#309250 - 10/15/12 10:33 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Apparently they don't believe it's worth it to market to recreational pond people?
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#309251 - 10/15/12 10:36 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: Bill Cody]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
The Purina booth and the associated presentation had two LMB one fed Gamefish Chow and one fed Aquamax for around I think 4 months. The test fish were in a cage. Aquamax fish was about 1.5" inches longer and had better body condition (Wr aka RW).


O.K. I stand corrected (if you are also not buying my comments on inflated conversion rates), but wouldn't the conversion rate be better for smaller fish that are gaining weight faster than larger fish?

I've had my 4 and 5 pound largemouth bass gorge on pellet after pellet but I don't think they were growing that fast anymore. At that size if they were feeding like no tomorrow, but not gaining a lot of weight their conversion had to be dismal.

How many recreation pond owners are feeding 1.5 inch bass? Most feed trained bass that are sold by suppliers to recreational pond people are bigger than that.



Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/15/12 11:33 PM)
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#309261 - 10/16/12 12:15 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: Cecil Baird1]
esshup Offline
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Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
I think all of the FCR data stops at marketable sized fish and none is available for larger fish in ponds.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#309262 - 10/16/12 01:11 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
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Loc: Illinois, St. louis area
Where is cargill feed sold? If you wanted to buy a pallet directly from them? Their website sucks for fish feed info.. Silver cup has bar none the best customer service but their prices are just way to high even on major heavyweight orders..
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I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.


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#309275 - 10/16/12 09:57 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
ewest Offline
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Lunker

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Loc: Miss.
Call Greg Grimes. He can have it sent direct to you.
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#309277 - 10/16/12 10:07 AM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: Cecil Baird1]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19621
Loc: Miss.
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
... but wouldn't the conversion rate be better for smaller fish that are gaining weight faster than larger fish?


Very good question - I don't know. I have never seen that addressed. If the small fish are eating more to sustain that faster rate of growth then maybe the same conversion rate. But the data I have seen is either as a % of body weight or to satiation. You could get opposite results just based on that. There is very little data on larger fish in a controlled environment. That is why we want the data from Purina and Cargill.



Edited by ewest (10/16/12 10:07 AM)
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#309293 - 10/16/12 12:05 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: Bill Cody]
djstauder Offline
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Registered: 03/31/07
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Loc: Mississippi
Bill,
Are you saying you order a palette of larger size Aquamax pellets and get a few bags of smaller sized pellets on the same palette?
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#309296 - 10/16/12 12:46 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Greg Grimes Offline
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Cecil I canít do the quote in the box thing but you wrote "Apparently they don't believe it's worth it to market to recreational pond people?"

Iím sorry but that is totally incorrect. I don't have time for all the details but here you goÖ both Cargill and Purina took time to speak to the masses at the conference. Nate Shawn and I were all candid with both in private meetings. Cargill cares tremendously about sport fish ponds. They forked a ton of money for the show, advertising in POndBoss etc. Both Purina and Cargill agree overall it is a small market but admit it is growing. If they read post like yours maybe they will pull out. I appreciate them showing up with reps and their nutritionist and Purina doing the same.

Cargill has a strong presence in Aquaclture for them to take the time and show they care for us is huge. It puts pressure on Purina to do the same. How many complain about not being able to get the AM product. Well we had talks to address and they might change business plan. Cargill has many options available and we can drop ship so that opens up many more opportunities to pondowners all across the country.

Yes it is pricey to ship less than 10 bags, but not their fault that is simply freight with diesel prices inflated. When you start getting 20 bags and really 40 bags it starts to be cheaper and more convenient than local feed store. Might start forming coop with neighboring pond owners. Bill the better food has to be marketed or it sits on shelves. Purina has done the marketing part well. Cargill as I said has done a good job of getting good food to those growing in aquaculture. It is evolving this is classic free enterprise and I love it someone will fill the need.

Some good things are coming from both companies as well as further testing with different feeds. It is all good info Cecil so please donít be so negative.
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#309300 - 10/16/12 02:07 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Bill Cody Offline
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Registered: 04/18/02
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I was meaning to say that at my local purina supplier, they will order any special size of Aquamax that I ask for. I don't have to order/buy any other feed besides that one bag. They evidently get the 1bag special order in with their regular Purina shipment which is maybe every 1 to 2 weeks. When I order it never takes more than 2 weeks to get it. I'm not sure, but the Purina shipments to my dealer in Napoleon OH (based in WauseonOH they have 4 branch feed stores) probably include a mixed lot of various types of feeds from the Richmond IN production plant. I can check on this information from my dealer if someone wants specfic info as to how one dealer does it to get one special order bag of fish food. The AM with higher protein content will be more expensive. The smaller sized 50%+ protein feeds have been about $45-50 for me. If you want answers to specific question provide me the question/s.


Edited by Bill Cody (10/16/12 02:09 PM)
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#309314 - 10/16/12 03:54 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
ewest Offline
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Posts: 19621
Loc: Miss.
Bill that is exactly my situation/results as well.


Edited by ewest (10/16/12 03:55 PM)
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#309318 - 10/16/12 04:18 PM Re: Aquamax vs.Live Forage [Re: roadwarriorsvt]
Greg Grimes Offline
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Bill any feed store in the country can do this. Question is will they and for what charge. It is inconsistent and when recommending Purina dealers across country been met with we can not get it for 4 or more weeks etc. etc.
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