Pond Boss Forums AERATION Systems questions Creating a "Cascade"

I'm thinking of installing a bottom draw pump to one of my little ponds. The idea is to pull water from about ten feet deep (the pond is about 12 feet) and deliever it to an elevation twenty feet above the water level. Does anybody have advice on what pump I should get in respect to cost of pump, energy costs for 24 hour operation, durability and noise levels? I'm not smart enough to look at amps, volts and stuff like that to figure out a good purchase and there's so many products out there!

The general idea is to freshen up the water and create something that looks nice, like a waterfall. The pond has 100,000 gallons of water and I'd like to move 50-100 gpm.

Thanks,

Bruce

As you know Bruce, I am interested in a similar idea. I am looking forward to you doing the research to save me some time.

I will talk to a friend of mine tonight in the landscaping business and see what he knows. I assume you are pumping from your large pond?

Actually, I'm going to try this on my biggest "little" pond. There's great area for a cascade, but the water is getting skunky from seven years of pellet feeding. Maybe Cecil can hook me up with some bacteria to try as well.

The first thing to look for is a pump that is rated for your required GPM at 20' of head. Then look at the wattage of the pump. If the wattage is not given, multiply volts x amps = watts.

Most of us pay around 9 cents per kilowatt-hour for electricity, so to make this easy...

Motor Watts / 15.44 = $$$ per month

Now here's where I get really ignorant. How do you calculate head? If my pump is just above the water level and pushing water up 20', then that's not the same as having the pump 20' above the water level...right?

I'm planning on situating the pump right about two feet above water level and pushing water up hill another 20.

I'm looking in a catalog from Aquatic Ecosystems and would prefer to purchase from a Pond Boss forum contributor if price is comparable.

Bruce, I think you can find many pumps to fit your needs at Home Depot or Lowes. You may want to get a trash pump or sewage pump, which will handle solids to 1 1/2 inch diameter. Especially if you are drawing water from near the bottom.

Bruce,
"Head" is the height you are lifting water. That is from the surface of the pond to the outlet of the pipe. It doesn't matter where the pump is.

Now, some pumps are better at pulling and some are better at pushing. Some are self-priming and some aren't. In your application, what I would do is go to HD or Lowe's and look for the smallest shallow well pump they have. They are not self-primimg so you'll want to put a one-way valve at the end of the pipe in the pond. The pump can go anywhere in the pipe you want.

A pump can push water a lot higher than it can lift. That would be my major consideration.

Dave,

So the pump uses less energy when placed near the water level of the source, right?

Maybe, but since Bruce is talking about continous use, it probably doesn't matter that much as far as energy usage goes. I discussed this with a water well driller once. Pumps are rated by how much they can lift. He said that is why water well pumps are submersible. It would take a lot bigger pump to lift water to the surface than to push it.

I'm still maybe missin' the boat a little here. I can put the pump anywhere I want, but I'm operating under the assumption that I can buy a better pump for the money if I'm pushing the water up the hill instead of pulling it. That's why I want the pump just above the water level in the pond as opposed to placing up on the hill. Has this point been established?

...and where the heck is Theo, anyway? He always loves to jump in these physics problems.

Bruce,
In the context of this discussion, you can put the pump anywhere in the line you want. A shallow well pump will have no problem lifting water 20'.
The cost of running the pump is equal to the work being done (lifting water 20') multiplied by the efficiency of the pump.

Here's a good primer on irrigation systems.
http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/pump.htm
I am replacing a small irrigation pump used on my garden plot with a larger pump with diverter for a pond fountain and irrigation. I think the trash pump that was mentioned earlier is the type I'll be using since I don't need much lift in my case.

Jersy's giving you good advise Bruce.

Choose your pump to do the job you intend to do.
Pumps are designed to do different tasks as Jersey said.
Pick one capable of 20' of "lift". You are "lifting" the water 20' even though in laymans terms we think of the pump pushing the water up hill.
Buy a pump just for a 20' lift & the water will just gurgle out the pipe end.
Now, if you intend to spray the water against a rock at the top of your lift such as you would if trying to atomize & aerate it that will have to be figured in also. It could be done just by flatening the pipe. I would think the shallow well pump would work since it is designed to pump against pressure.

Bruce,

I'm sure Theo is hard at work on the design of your pump system and will post shortly. In the meantime, I think Jersey has given you some good information. As for pumps, I picked up a shallow well pump at the po boys Home Depot (our local landfill) and paid a few bucks to have a pump shop rehab it for me. I keep it for a spare in case the pump in my sap house goes.

Russ

Bruce:

Sorry I haven't imposed already; I have been busy diagnosing problems with our domestic water well system and installing several replacement parts including a new submersible pump. (What's the emoticon for irony?)

You've got good advice already; your job could be performed by either a submersible pump or by a shallow well, non-submerged pump, since you are under the 32 foot limit for lifting water.

I have little experience with sump-pumps (designed & placed the house to use gravity drains on the basement) but I borrowed one off my Father-in-Law once for temporary use in a shallow well that would move a lot of water up the height you need. If it was my project, I would be sure and compare the prices/GPM capacities/HP ratings of submerged, shallow well (impeller), and sump pumps. I don't know anything about shallow-well jet pumps.

It is my belief that the lowest HP rated pump which will handle your requirements will be the most cost effective. It should have the lowest initial cost, of course; in absence of a motor efficiency expert (which I am not) I would guess it's electricity consumption would be roughly equivalent or less than higher HP pumps.

Bruce,
I had a similar setup on a 30 foot diameter by 8 foot deep Koi pond which I have since donated due to a divorce. I was only pumping to a vertical height of 8 feet above the pond but the horizontal distance was about 120 feet. I've found that the most efficient pumps on the market have been discovered by the Koi pond keepers of the world so I'd check a few websites for Koi pond suppliers and look up the specs on those pumps. They also have a few which come with in-line basket strainers which prevent clogging the pump.
The reason I had to add the waterfall was to eliminate all of the algae blooming in the pond which obscured the view of the Koi. I added a smaller 15' by 25 foot shallow pond liner and filled the entire thing with dirt to create a bog. The pond water entered the bog, which effectively aerated the water and consumed the nutrients for the bog plants. The water then exited the bog and cascaded into the Koi pond.
The pump I used ran continuous without a problem for about 6 years before I donated it.

i don't know if the hill is there or you are going to build one. just a few thoughts. you get what you pay for with pumps. by a cheap one , replace a cheap one more often. for a nice flow of water , you running 24 hrs , your gunna need a real pump. cost running the pump , go with a high efficacy motor. head in calculated from the surface of the water. for a water fall you need about 30 GPM for every foot of with. 3 ft 90 GPM , that is for a nice flow. need a nice pump to do that for long time. also you water fall needs a liner to contain the water , when you turn the pump off , all water needs to drain out or all your hard work will not last for years and builing a 20 ft. waterfall is costly and hard work. if your building the hill , you should let the dirt (clay) sit through 2 winters before adding all that weight from the stones. snag a couple books from the libary and see what your getting into , would be great start. you might what to step it down to 10'lol. stoney creek has great pumps for water falls. good luck

Fabulous information so far. I'm very interested in the bog concept. My water will need lifted twenty feet over a horizontal distance of about 200 ft. now that I measured. I wonder if PaPond or anyone else has any idea how big a bog would have to be to accomodate 100 gpm flows to freshen up this 100,000 gallon pond. I'm having an excavator remove all accumulated sediment first. I also wonder about the species of plants in the bog. I've got plenty of aggressive cattails that would probably not mind being moved.

Bogs for biological control are usually created as a function of flow and size of the bog compared to the pond. If you're lucky enough to have clay soil you can build a larger bog (because it will be cheaper if you don't have to line it) and get by with a slower flow. It's all about retention time and it's probably specific to your region. (I found more retention time, less gpm, meant greater nutrient reduction) My former bog was on Long Island New York and needed a liner, I sized it so it was over 2/3 the size of the pond but it fit the site well. As for plants, I was able to get all sorts of exotic skunk weeds and pitcher plants and marsh grasses from local wetland areas so they grew well and established themselves quickly. We didn't have harsh winters on Long Island so in winter I ran a smaller pump to maintain circulation because even in winter there was enough growth to effectively remove nutrients from the water.
If you want the visual effect of a waterfall you could probably run 2 pumps, both pumping half of your desired 100 gpm, and shut one at night to increase retention time when no-one can see the waterfalls anyway, and in the daylight use both for full flow.