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#308202 - 10/02/12 12:51 PM Well, Hell's bells
Missouri Bill Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 88
Loc: Missouri
I'd planned on picking up SMB, YP and a few WE and HSB from a hatchery in north Missouri, to stock into a year-old, 1/2-acre pond. But the hatchery manager called me yesterday to say that SMB are not available this year.

I checked with the other two Missouri hatcheries I know of that carrry SMB, and they don't have any this year, either.

I'm tempted to forget about SMB and just stock LMB and a few WE and HSB. The pond already has FH, GSH, BG, RES, crayfish and a few CC. There are a lot of flooded trees around the edges, providing lots of "bassy-looking" cover.

How would SMB handle a 5- or 6-hour drive from a hatchery in Iowa, if I can find one? They'd have to make the trip bagged with oxygen.

Big bluegill are fun to catch, especially on popping bugs. I'm really thinking hard about stocking LMB and letting them keep the BG population at a trophy level.


Edited by Missouri Bill (10/02/12 12:54 PM)

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#308204 - 10/02/12 12:57 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Missouri Bill]
esshup Offline
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Bill:

As long as they have plenty of O2 and the ammonia level is controlled, they should make the trip just fine. BUT, they won't be able to control the BG population. How many were you looking to get?

Where in MO are you?

Rex is from the St. Louis area, and he hauls fish (Rainman here on the forum). He probably knows where to get SMB. I've got between 50 and 100 feed trained ones in a cage that are around 8", too bad you aren't close.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#308207 - 10/02/12 01:06 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Missouri Bill]
Missouri Bill Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 88
Loc: Missouri
I'm outside Columbia, about 18 miles north of I-70.

Because SMB can't control BG, the argument for LMB gets stronger. How would a combination of 100 LMB, 25 WE and 12 HSB sound to you? I can always harvest some of the LMB next year when they get big enough to fillet.

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#308216 - 10/02/12 02:43 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Missouri Bill]
Missouri Bill Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 88
Loc: Missouri
Another possibility--I could wait until next fall to add SMB. In the meantime, I could add 25 WE and 12 HSB and let them feed on FH, BG and chow for the next year.

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#308223 - 10/02/12 05:42 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: esshup]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
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Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: esshup
Bill:

I've got between 50 and 100 feed trained ones in a cage that are around 8", too bad you aren't close.


Scott,

Yeah if he was in Indiana of course. Is that what you mean?

Sadly once you put them into a body of water the previous testing is negated to sell them again across state lines. You'd have to destroy 60 of them to ship them across state lines. Been there done that (as in been in that situation).

It's doesn't seem right but that's the way it is. The thinking is once they go into a new body of water there is a chance they could be exposed to the virus. But then within the state it's O.k. Never said it had to make sense! LOL



Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/02/12 05:43 PM)
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#308227 - 10/02/12 06:04 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Cecil Baird1]
JKB Offline
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Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 6692
Loc: Michigan
Not sure what it is now up here. Every BOW on a fish farm had to be tested. If you moved fish from pond "A" to pond "B", and the fish in both ponds were previously tested, pond "B" would have to be retested.

Some crazy stuff was going on. Good time to lay back and wait till it blows over wink


Edited by JKB (10/02/12 06:05 PM)

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#308229 - 10/02/12 07:53 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Missouri Bill]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
JKB,

Sadly I doubt it will blow over. The government (APHIS) will have to admit they were wrong and they just don't do that.
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#308237 - 10/02/12 10:56 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Cecil Baird1]
catmandoo Offline
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Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 5681
Loc: Hampshire Co., WV
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
JKB,

Sadly I doubt it will blow over. The government (APHIS) will have to admit they were wrong and they just don't do that.


I'm not so sure. Being in WV, we don't have the issues our friends have in states that touch the great lakes. Additionally, several years ago, we got aquaculture, including all private waters in the state, moved from under the jurisdiction of the Dept. Of Natural Resources to the Dept of Agriculture. They have a whole different outlook on how things get done and regulated. This year we will be co-hosting/co-sponsoring what has been the WV Aquaculture Association conference and workshops with Pennsylvania Agriculture.

This year I was successful in getting noncommercial aquaculture added to the program. Thus, in addition to all of our commercial workshops, we will be having two days of sessions much like those at Pond Boss.

Most years we have a number of legislators and regulators attending. I feel we've made a lot of positive strides in the last few years. We've cut out a lot of onerous regulations. I'm not a lobbyist, but I think I'll be spending a lot of 2013 working with the state government to improve aquaculture regulations. I feel that WV is far ahead of many of our neighboring states. As simple as it might be, I can now add grass carp to my ponds without a permit as long as I purchase them from a supplier certified by WV.

Ken
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#308240 - 10/03/12 12:15 AM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: catmandoo]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24029
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Cecil:

I've seen "farm" testing certs. done with a sample size as little as 3 fish. That testing seems to be valid for a 6 month period, and that testing doesn't have to be done "in state". The fish can be sent out to a different state for testing. (at least that's what it seems from reading the healt cert.)
_________________________
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#308304 - 10/03/12 04:04 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Missouri Bill]
Blaine Offline
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Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 449
Loc: Central Indiana
Bill,
How big are the LMB? That's a lot of top line predators in a 1/2 acre pond if they are stocked larger than 5". I would cut way back on the LMB to enhance growth rates unless they are fingerlings. I stocked 100 8" LMB in my 1.6 acre pond 5 years ago. Growth rates have averaged 1 lb. per year since. The LMB fishing is fantastic! WE are difficult in ponds less than 10 acres.

I added 25 HSB two years later after the bass had established themselves. No CC for me.
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#308377 - 10/04/12 10:02 AM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Missouri Bill]
Missouri Bill Offline


Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 88
Loc: Missouri
Blaine,

You're right, that's too many LMB, even for fingerlings. What would you suggest for a half-acre pond with a lot of cover? Twenty-five?

What kind of forage did you establish in your pond?

Bill

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#308402 - 10/04/12 01:33 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: catmandoo]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: catmandoo
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
JKB,

Sadly I doubt it will blow over. The government (APHIS) will have to admit they were wrong and they just don't do that.


I'm not so sure. Being in WV, we don't have the issues our friends have in states that touch the great lakes. Additionally, several years ago, we got aquaculture, including all private waters in the state, moved from under the jurisdiction of the Dept. Of Natural Resources to the Dept of Agriculture. They have a whole different outlook on how things get done and regulated. This year we will be co-hosting/co-sponsoring what has been the WV Aquaculture Association conference and workshops with Pennsylvania Agriculture.

This year I was successful in getting noncommercial aquaculture added to the program. Thus, in addition to all of our commercial workshops, we will be having two days of sessions much like those at Pond Boss.

Most years we have a number of legislators and regulators attending. I feel we've made a lot of positive strides in the last few years. We've cut out a lot of onerous regulations. I'm not a lobbyist, but I think I'll be spending a lot of 2013 working with the state government to improve aquaculture regulations. I feel that WV is far ahead of many of our neighboring states. As simple as it might be, I can now add grass carp to my ponds without a permit as long as I purchase them from a supplier certified by WV.

Ken


Ken,

Sounds like you are just as knee deep as I am in aquaculture issues as president of our state association. We had a joint conference with Ohio this spring.

We also have good repor with state people but they are in the same boat as us private producers. The VHS decree is a fed ruling that costs the DNR's and they would happy if the required testing for VHS was gone too.

I just see the feds as a whole different animal vs. government at the state level. Typically farther removed from the real world on a power trip.

I hope you're right though on the possibility of change on the VHS ruling. I do know some vet committees that are trying to get it changed.
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#308403 - 10/04/12 01:38 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: esshup]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: esshup
Cecil:

I've seen "farm" testing certs. done with a sample size as little as 3 fish. That testing seems to be valid for a 6 month period, and that testing doesn't have to be done "in state". The fish can be sent out to a different state for testing. (at least that's what it seems from reading the healt cert.)


I could be wrong but I don't think the farm sampling you are talking about isn't universally accepted in every state. I know the Indiana DNR rejected the testing for me that Bob Plemmons did on his trout at Castaline fish hatchery even though the testing was done by the Department of Interior!

However that still doesn't change the fact that you have to retest fish if you put them into a new body of water even on the same property. And as soon as fish cross state lines they need to be tested.

Yes you can send fish samples anywhere you want if the testing facility has the accreditation. But the samples have to be taken by a vet and sent there by the vet. A very popular place to send samples to is a lab in Maine.

Purdue here did did my most recent testing of the smallmouth bass.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/04/12 01:40 PM)
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#308410 - 10/04/12 05:02 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Cecil Baird1]
JKB Offline
Hall of Fame 2015
Lunker

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 6692
Loc: Michigan
Cecil,

I did not mean that it would actually blow over and disappear.

When the VHS stuff first came out, everyone had a Huge WT? Question. The main thing, was that people had little to no answers, and it was up to the officials to get policy into place and inform everyone. It took some time for things to settle, and I really do not know if it has settled.

At least people were aware of what they were dealing with, after everything was spelled out. Until then, it was a good time to sit back and wait, if you had the luxury.

Quite a few fish farmers went thru hell on this.

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#308413 - 10/04/12 07:03 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Missouri Bill]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
Hall of Fame

Lunker

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
No worries Phil. We're pretty much in agreement.

What really P.O.'d me about the VHS thing is APHIS sat on their hands for about a year if my memory serves me correct stopping all interstate fish transport in the Great Lakes states which precluded fish farmers from making a living. There didn't seem to be any sense of urgency or understanding of how small business works.

Sure we had some comments periods and meetings but it was obvious they had made up their minds and they were merely a formal protocol.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (10/04/12 11:40 PM)
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#308418 - 10/04/12 08:46 PM Re: Well, Hell's bells [Re: Cecil Baird1]
catmandoo Offline
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Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 5681
Loc: Hampshire Co., WV
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird


Ken,

Sounds like you are just as knee deep as I am in aquaculture issues as president of our state association. We had a joint conference with Ohio this spring.



Yeah. I'm the VP of the WV Aquaculture Association. I do a lot of the leg work, and I spend a lot of time working with the WV Aquaculture Extension people, and a couple from agriculture. In general we have a pretty strong and cohesive team.

Ken
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