Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Help float a fountain

Hello, I'm new and have a question. I have a submerged Little Giant pump that I'm wanting to float. It weighs about 3 pounds. Any way I can do this?

Welcome to Pond Boss.

Little Giant makes so many pumps, it is a little difficult to make a suggestion without knowing which series it is. I have one of their small fountain pumps, and I think I could float it by attaching it to a piece of 1-1/2 or 2-inch blue insulating board. If it is like mine, it would have to be attached to the bottom side of the board so that it is always submerged. Mine has a removable filter that needs periodic cleaning. You'd have to make sure you could reasonably be able to get at it.

Ken

It's this one:
http://little-giantpump.com/504203.ht
I can get to it easy. My pond is only 3/4 of an acre and 8' deep. I have a little paddle boat to get out to it.

I don't think the link works.
# 504203  4E-34NR1/12 hp Small Submersible Pump115 v   6' Power Cord1/2" Male NPT Discharge   810 gph Capacity23' Lift

OK! Here is a link to that pump at Amazon.Com: Little Giant 1/12-HP 850-GPH Submersible Pump.



It appears to be a good pump -- just not what I expected. And, not one I would want to use in a pond.

I have several concerns with using it.

The first and foremost is safety. It comes standard with a 6-foot cord that plugs into a regular 120 VAC outlet. It will definitely have to be on a GFI protected circuit. Everything I see about it screams DANGER if used in a large pond or small lake. Unless you have extensive electrical experience with outdoor and underwater electrical devices, I would not replace the cord, nor the plug on the cable, especially with a a splice. I'd be extremely reluctant to use it with an extension cord.

The plug at the end of the pump cord must be kept well above water, and it absolutely has to be plugged into a safe (inspected/tested) GFI outlet near the pond edge.

My second concern is that it does not appear that the pump has a replaceable or cleanable filter for small particles. It is the kind of pump that cannot handle much grit or other nasties. I suspect that is why you want to float it. It would have to be suspended off the bottom, in an area with minimal suspended organic materials (like algae) and inorganic (like clay or sand).

This pump is only rated with a 1-foot head -- meaning it will only push water at full capacity to one foot above the intake.

Maybe somebody else will see something different that what I've seen regarding this pump.

There are a lot of really good small and safe pumps available. Many are very inexpensive. For pond use, many operate on 12 or 24 volts through a very safe step-down transformer or power supply.

This is just my opinion, but I would not use this pump in a pond, except maybe for a very small pond with just a few hundred, or maybe even a few thousand gallons of water, and I wouldn't put the pump at a depth of more than about 36 inches.

Regards,
Ken

Ken, I think you nailed it.

Thank you very much for the information. You talked me out of using it.can you recommend a pump that has enough volume and pressure to shoot 5 small streams of water 30' feet? When I tested this one in a drum of water it did great as to the sprinkler pattern.

I plugged the pump up just to see if it would short out since it's been in the water for about 4 months now. It works great as for water flow. Is there some other reason I shouldn't use it? I have it on a tripod I built out of PVC pipe about a foot and a half under the water line. I spliced the cord and used well pump cable to the bank. I also heat shrinked the splic and put it in a PVC tube with a cap on each end and filled the tube with neoprene rubber caulk used for fish tanks then epoxied the ends where the cords come out.

It sounds like it's waterproofed, but, and it's a big BUT, if it does get water into the connection, then there the's the chance of electrocution. That's why I would never recommend doing something like that. In today's sue happy society, if you aren't the one getting zapped, do you have enough insurance to cover the potential lawsuit for modifying the pump?

I'm pretty sure that's why you aren't getting much response, if something happens it can't be said "Well he told me to do it".

No way I would do that.

I agree with others as to not modify the pump. Modifying makes you fully laible. Guests and intruders will sue you if injured.

Anyone have an idea on a 12 or 24 volt pump that will do what this one does?

Take a look at the Little Giant pump website. Many big box stores, like Lowes and Wal-Mart, also have some great selections at reasonable prices, and they are safe due to their low operating voltage and the isolated power supplies used with them. They are designed for garden ponds, koi ponds, etc. Landscaping suppliers have them too. Used in accordance with manufacturer's instructions, they meet all UL and other national safety requirements.

Putting the wrong pump in an application without modifications could also get you sued. It's called ignorance.

Being ignorant only works for football players and such

"Being ignorant only works for football players and such ;)"

and umpires on the third base line at the Braves game...

I cant find anything suitable for DIY fix for this type of underwater splice. PVC will expand and contract at different rates than epoxy, therefore breaking any seal you thought you may have had. That was your first mistake. Your solution is just plain dangerous

A qualified/licensed electrician who is "On Site" could evaluate what you are trying to do and may offer a solution. If they have ever worked with this type of splice, they will know what and how to do this. (they do make stuff for this, but ya need to be qualified to select the proper materials/components)

There is a time/pressure relationship here when dealing with under water electrical. The splice Must be considered Hermetically Sealed for long term service under water. Time is obvious, pressure is considered how deep the connection is submerged in water, and at what elevation with regards to sea level. Some of these splice kits only offer 24-48 hours of service at 3 feet deep at sea level. Get where I am going with this

Doing this splice correctly will probably cost much more than a new pump already set up for this type of service. Depending on hourly rate, ya could be looking at 300.00 to 400.00 for materials and labor.

Sorry sub, some things you should leave up to qualified professionals.

You can survive many DIY mistakes. Electrocution is not one of them!!!

Take care

I kind of feel guilty. I almost feel like we've been too tough on Submarine as a new member to Pond Boss. I started the negative answers. Yet, I'm also glad that we have been as tough as we have been.

I feel I am one of the "qualified professionals." As an electrical engineer, I was in the military-industrial electronics world for well over 40 years. In the last 12 years, as the head of some extremely stringent manufacturing, installation, and field service groups, with a company that is one of the largest in the world, I was also was the Environmental, Health, and Safety (EHS) officer for our group until we could find someone who really understood all aspects of chemical, electrical, mechanical, etc., safety.

Our safety record, our production record, our effectiveness record, and our profitability record were amongst the best in industry.

In my lifetime, I've seen way too much death and maiming from poor decisions, mismanagement, and stupid mistakes that could have been very simply avoided with a just little education and caution. It greatly affected my direct family.

As for all of this preaching, all you have to do is go back in the history of this forum, and you will find that I'm lucky to still be alive, have all my limbs, and maybe still have a mind strong enough to post here.

Stay Safe,
Ken

I feel the same way Ken, about being a bit harsh.

I just have a picture in my mind of a youngster running down to the pond to catch a frog or something and...

That's the only reason I said anything.

I work for an electrical contractor. My primary function is automation engineering/controls. I am also technical support for 28 licensed electricians. However, I am Not an electrician.

Being on the lakeshore, we do quite a bit of work with water related electrical. Our guys know what they are doing.

I feel the answer I gave above is most appropriate. I would never give DIY instructions to someone in a potentially life threatening situation.

I realize this is years and years ago (I honestly don't know what year it was, and I'm sure that it was when electricity was still fairly new) but my Dad's cousins mother was electrocuted by stepping on an extension cord that was laying on the wet grass and killed. I just called Dad and he thinks it was 1936.

Here at the house, my bladder tanks for the well are in a building outside of the house, below grade. I think it was an old milk house. I insulate the building and put a infrared 1200 watt heater on the floor, which is turned on and off via a thermostat that is set for 33 or 34 deg F. Since it's inside the building, none of the electric out there is on a GFIC. A few years ago in the Spring after everything was melted, a cold snap came thru the area. I lost water in the house - the pipes froze somewhere. I looked down by the bladder tanks and there was about 24" of water down there, with ice on top. The heater was completely submerged under water, with the thermostat still out of the water. I went back in the house, put on rubber boots and was just about to break thru the ice when something clicked in my head. "I wonder if the circuit is tripped going to the heater?" I climbed back up the ladder, and looked at the breaker box. It was NOT tripped. I'm still wondering if I would have made it back up the ladder after breaking thru the ice if I hadn't turned off the circuit breaker first.........

Do a Google search with electrocution, ponds, marinas...

The main culprit behind these needless tragedy's is ignorance!

Cant see electricity, and no way to tell if a BOW is electrified!

Sorry man. I woke up this morning at 4:30AM, like I normally do, and had a sense of fear with regards to this thread.

Family's Dog Electrocuted in Retention Pond
>> I understand from the lake mgmt company that the culprit was a down-hole water-well pump that shorted somewhere along its powercord - and a faulty GFI.

I've heard stories of fish-hooks snagging and penetrating powercords that really got my attention.

IMO: splices can be accomplished with "reduced risk" when using the proper materials and techniques. However, if either aspect of the splice is compromised......

Most all the pumps I'm finding are 120/240v. : (

I'm in the midst of building a new house and the electric codes in effect now virtually ensure that nobody can get fried, even by accident. Besides GFI cirduits wherever there is water or bare concrete, all regular circuits now must have arc-fault breakers. These are very touchy breakers that will pop even if a light bulb flickers. My electrician warned me that these can frustrate when you have to try to find out why it keeps tripping.

Electricity is not something to take "light"ly.(pun intended) Always err on the side of safety and ask a professional.

sean

That is probably correct. The problem becomes adapting one not intended for this purpose. Take a look at Kasco Marine and Vertex. You can be certain that theirs are very safe and properly designed for this purpose.

Ken

I really, really dislike those arc-fault interrupters. The ones that I removed wouldn't allow the use of a vaccum cleaner in a couple rooms of the house. Unless they've changed a lot, you'll be pulling your hair out when trying to use an electric motor with them. They will trip if the brushes in the motor arc.