Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Theo's Crazy HBG Stocking Schemes

Transferring this from another thread, at the head's up thinking behest of that most respected of PB moderators (consider the competition), ewest:

quote:
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Originally posted by ewest:
I am not sure I understand Theo's second part comment on the small pond wrt male BG. I like the concept of BG and the male only choice , but not if there are HBG in the pond. That could result in more crazy BG crosses. Studies reveal that HBG are from 66% to 97% male but the females can (we think -- mixed data) backcross with the male BG and create more of a mess. I think he means stock the male BG after the first HBG are gone. It is a lot of fun planning ponds and thinking through the choices. Good luck.
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Eric has caught one of the crazy flawed aspects of my mind. The safe (& sane) way to do Male-only BG following HBG is indeed to wait until the HBG are all gone. Draining and seining a small pond (although maybe not a deep one like Chuck's smallest) could likely be used to hasten this transition. If not, rotenone mixes with deep water.

Eric, I have a running thought experiment for my future pond #2 (may not get built until my kids are through college, years away at least, will probably be 1/4 acre at most) which starts with HBG and transitions to male-only BG. Here's the crazy question: Can I successfully transition without having male BGxfemale HBG crosses being a significant presence? Can I hold the numbers of such offspring down to the ignore 'em level with a combination of lots of small LMB from the main pond, seining, and/or trapping? Hopefully someday I will get to the point of finding out.

My REALLY crazy scenario for the small future pond starts with HSB, HBG, and RES, moving significant numbers of RES and HSB to the main pond as they become large enough to escape predation there. Then transitioning from HBG to male-only BG, with a small but reproducing population of RES. I know, this could get me BGxRES crosses, but I would like some of those. We have seen some gorgeous, great big Bluegill-Redear hybrids pictured here, and both theory and experience lead me to believe this cross should result in the biggest possible Lepomis sunfish.

I should mention two qualifiers for these possible pond plans: 1) I already have HBG genes in my main pond, and therefore do not have a pristine BG gene pool to worry about messing up, and 2) I trust and count on you guys to review my plans before implementation and tell me if I've gone through the looking glass (completely crazy, not just regular Theo crazy).

And then ewest replied:

"Theo :

I was not sure I knew where you were headed with the HBG part of the second pond. Can we copy your question to a new thread and go from there. If we put it here we will detract from Chuck's thread and we may have a hard time finding it again. I think there may some people who would like to join in a discussion on HBG and how to transition from them. I do think your plan will work and is not at all crazy. In fact you are describing one way (other than killing the pond} to shift from HBG to other lepomis."

Theo :

I think you can transition from a HBG pond to a other lepomis pond without killing the pond. It may take some time and may never be 100.000% pure other lepomis (BG , RES etc.).

HBG are not only a high % male they have low fecundity (reproductive rates) when compared to BG. Because of this you could over time overwhelm the HBG by the application of higher BG fecundity.

There are a number of ways to reduce the HBG in the pond prior to adding other lepomis, including fishing , traps , seines , predation (followed by reducing the predators to then put in BG/RES or others). We do not worry about BG x RES in our ponds. If they happen great. I agree with your assessment of them above. I will need to check on possible HBG x RES crosses and report back. I will have to track down the info. But look at the #s below wrt the GS part of the HBG equation as to RES. Much higher % female.

If you want BG x RES crosses then pick out a small pond or RAS and add male of one and female of the other and you will have them. If in a RAS you could then remove the brood fish and feed the offspring to size and away you go.

From Dave Wills's post on the Childers study.

"Here are the sex ratios (percent male) that he got with various hybrid crosses. The male parent is listed first. When he had more than one trial, I put the number in parentheses following the average.

Redear X Bluegill 97 (3)
Bluegill X Redear 97
Redear X Green 69
Green X Redear 48
Bluegill X Green 97
Green X Bluegill 68 (2) ...."

I have heard and think it may well be true that in lepomis crosses it matter which parent is which. In the above study both BG x RES results were the same. But look at the differences of males in mGS x fRES and mGS x fBG. It would seem to make a big difference which mix you got if you were buying HBG (GS x BG). One way you get 97% males the other 68% males. This could account for some of the differences in the studies results (66% - 97%). Obviously the difference would have an effect on what you are considering. The more females the harder to get rid of the HBG xs by out reproducing them.

I do want to include in this post that some of the studies on HBG and the various lepomis crosses are at odds and that means more uncertainty.

In my opinion, you can make your transition without the back-crossed hybrids being a major presence, in particular due to the fact you'll have good numbers of predators present. I would seriously consider creating the basin of your .25 acre pond with future dewatering/seining in mind. Keep the structure on the fringes so that you can run a seine without hanging up after you've lowered your water level. I'd also think you could use your creativity that would make the pond visually appealing, but also seine friendly. Reproduction will be much less of a concern, and actually may be something you end up desiring. That way you can bail if or when you need to without killing some of your best fish, which you will invariably grow. I have full confidence. The way you approach this kind of process is the same way in which I do. That is to say that I play through each possibility over and over, sometimes for months. Not so much to figure out what good can happen, but more to envision worst case scenarios and avoidance.

I would also like to have a pond with bluegill/redear crosses. I don't think this is crazy at all. Well, come to think of it, if I had the same idea, it must be crazy. This will be a big sunfish, that should survive cold winters better than straight RES and will likely use pellets. It's an awesome possibility. This could make your pond a one-of-a-kind.

I'd like to think that when you build your pond and want some pristine bluegill genes that I could give you some Condello strain as a gift. I would benefit as well because of your superior powers of documentation. I'd like to see how my fish perform in your pond. Consider it a standing offer.

Thanks, Master! Due to the distance, we may have to transfer those Condello strain BG in stages. I think a stop in Ligonier, Indiana would be a good place for them to catch their breath.

My current plan for this small pond is to have NO permanent structure. HSB being open water fish, I figure they should be more efficient predators in an empty pond. I have been thinking of converting an old round bale feed ring into a piece of portable structure that can be rolled into the pond to concentrate fish for hook & line work, then pulled out by hand or by tractor when desired (at least once - if this feed ring was particularly sound structurally, the cattle would still be beating up on it).

The pond will be roughly 1/2 excavated and 1/2 dammed, as the lay of the land won't let me get enough depth for overwintering using just a dam. I think at least 3/4 of the perimeter can be set up for seining (a high % percentage of a small area of shallowish water shouldn't be too bad for weed control). There should be enough elevation drop on the land below the dam (going back into my woods) to permit siphoning if I ever need to.

My current favorite WAG at stocking numbers would be to stock FH for 1 year (trapping and/or seining some off for the main pond), followed by 400 HBG, 100 RES, and 100 HSB per acre, all small fingerlings. I would pellet feed the HBG and HSB. RES and HSB would be removed as they are caught once they reach a safe size for the main pond, which is only about 100 yds away (should be an easy transfer in small buckets 1-2 fish at a time).

I figure a breeding population of RES will remain in the small pond despite my best fishing efforts. As additional predators are needed for sunfish fingerling control, I can add more HSB or transfer smallish LMB from the main pond. Then as the HBG become depleted, I plan to replace them with male BG from the main pond (or Nebraska ) unless I have been REALLY pleased with the HBG. I could always restock more of those. Either way, I keep feeding (H)BG and what HSB are in the pond.

Well, crazy minds think alike. I just LOVE the big earflap on the RES/BG across. Awesome fish.
I believe the HSB in small pond with little structure will efficiently prey on the RES and HBG. Sounds like a plan. It goes without saying, your documentation will be flawless.

Good Luck

PS...I feel intimidated, 3 moderators and a moderatee on the same thread. Be gentle. :p

One thing I have been thinking about in regards to grow out areas and pond division for smaller ponds is a product call rigid plastic netting ( I think that is correct). It is what offshore fish operations use to form pens. It comes in all lengths and heights and net sizes. It will far out last a net and gives you the ability to partition your pond. You can use it like a seine to push fish away from an area thus leaving the part behind empty. Then set the net and you have a partition. A week later you can advance the net/fence further and change the size of the partition. It could also be used like feed lot fencing to have multiple different divisions. Think about the possibilities.

Safe haven FH breeding area, for one.

Eric, that's you who used rigid plastic netting as a temporary isolation area for feedig newly introduced CNBG, isn't it?

Theo :

I use/used blocking nets not rigid plastic netting. But in looking at the nets I encountered this material. Here is a link :

http://www.internetplastic.com/pdf/AQUACULTURE_BRO.pdf


BM where did your post go ? I did not know anyone around here made offshore fish pens. Where are they and who ?

I like that, especially the clip-on plastic grommets they offer.

Hey, Ewest, my post must have gotten moderated. No, really, I deleted because I didn't want to post on top of your good info.

To paraphrase, for us cheapos, Home Depot. has a lot of gray plastic hardware cloth on sale. As little as $1 per roll. For heavier duty use, the orange barricade material used at construction sites can be used.

Eric, call Dixie fish farms in Liberty and try and talk to Paul Picard. I have read that he is getting into offshore cages. He may can give a good source. It maybe tough to get him; him staff is somewhat underwhelming.(they may have changed their name to Delta.)

Has anyone had any luck getting this idea to work.I have a small forage pond about 1/10 acre that will be drained this fall. Would 15 male re with 15 female bg work or what should be stocked or should I just go with bg. Croppie and ps get in this pond no matter what I do.How they get there I do not know.

Nice old thread. Still good info.

What is your goal kenc.

Another member of PB Larry McDavid lives in a colder part of Va. and has cnbg and re that have crossed. I would like to have this hybrid as I love the way they look and believe they would be better then hbg. By the way has anyone else received a pm for Miss Edith looking for a true friend. Since deer season is around the corner I have many friends now. If anybody is lonely shoot me a pm and I will fix you up. ken

You could try a few CNBG and see how they do.

Edith has gone away and yes many got the same message.

Dadgone Ewest you shouldn't have killed off Miss Edith. Haven't you seen some of the mugs and read many of the posting on this forum? Now a lot of guys are going to have a very lonely holiday. Shame on you.

Kenc it was not me - but I would have if not beaten to the punch.

That was a blast pm . I have more faith in the abilities of the guys here to find companionship.

That was me Kenc and I do apologize. I will send you were email address and tell her to anticipate your message.

Thanks Omaha but I have a woman already and my religion forbids another one. I was trying to help some of the unfortunate souls that need a real companion.

Uh oh. Damage already done. This could get awkward.

I miss Theo.

Dnn't worry about it,I don't go to church every Sunday and I will check through the bylaws it might be a win win for everyone.