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ewest #307349 09/24/12 12:26 PM
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Goal is to have nice overall fishing, with as much as possible for table fare. My thinking is the easiest way to achieve this for my circumstances is BG. That would lean it towards a trophy BG pond. If I could get BG in the 10"+ range (or close to 3/4 pound??), that would be nice. Seems like all their offspring that needs culling should provide alot of table fare. I will add Red ear too.

Then add into the mix CC/LMB. I was thinking of trying to have enough CC to control the BG as it seems some past topics elude to them possibly doing it( no one has deliberatley tried this that I know of), and of course they provide table fare. They would eat the small BG, and I would thin out the mid size range of BG that get past the CC. But, if that doesn't work I'd go with LMB.

I may throw in a few HSB for sport since the LMB would never be allowed to get to any size. Possibly add in new HSB and take out larger ones for table fare. Other things that would be fun to play with is SMB and trout. Something like adding 6 SMB. I know they won't flourish or even reproduce, but just a rare variety that may be caught.

SO, considering that, if what hatched now is BG (or not), then what?......
1) Should I add BG from a fishery to start getting the genetics better?
2) Should I just let these BG(?) alone to flourish and grow as fast as possible, removing the parents(if possible) so more spawns won't compete with them?
3) should I still try to get some FHM going before the BG(?) are to big. Or is it better to just let the future predators of the BG be hungry so they thin out the next generation of BG?
4) If I need to keep these BG(?) controlled at this point, would adding trout now be feasable?

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If they are BG and you are sure there are a lot of them then I would add the LMB and CC and see the results. If there are not enough of them you can add some adult BG next spring. FH now would be good. Trout would also work but not to control the BG but to grow over winter and eat next year.

Even if they are GSF the same plan will work but you will need to add adult BG next spring.

Last edited by ewest; 09/24/12 01:35 PM.















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Update so far;

Fished and have not caught any adults yet.

I talked with the folks who I will probably get my stock from. I asked about RBT. They have them, and I asked what they eat, etc, etc, without telling them my situation. Otherwise they had no reason to tell me what they did. He said that RBT loves FHM (I pretty much understood that) and they also like BG under an 1.25" That they have gutted some in the past and found up to 50 BG in their stomach. They may be an alternate solution to my problem. I wonder if a 3/4" BG will grow another 1/2" in two to four weeks when I would stock RBT?

Also on a side note, he said they have some of the nicest SMB that they have had in years.

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I can't think of a better way to turn a nuisance into dinner than RBT! A person can always stock year round fish but how often do you get to have some RBT action? RBT would be my answer to the problem! That, some cold beer and a pack of potatoes, sweet peppers, onions, corn and garlic; season and wrapped in tin foil to sit over the coals beside the RBT! sounds like a good fall day!

Pit Fisher #307986 09/30/12 12:53 PM
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Netted another one today, slightly larger than the last catch. They have a much more vibrant blue/purple when out of the water, which is leaning me towards regular BG of some sort. But what do I know. I am only now starting to closely examine detials that I never considered before. Before PondBoss, they all looked like BG! blush shocked





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Those new pics and slightly larger fish are now looking more like GSF to me. Upper jaw or mandible extends slightly past the front of the eye which can be seen best on the 3rd picture - you have to look close. I looked at some GSF that size today and mouth structure appeared the same. The upper jaw of the mouth of a BG does not extend backward to reach the front of the eye. If I could post pictures better I would mark the picture with a vertical line showing the upper jaw as related to the front of the eye.
One benefit to the GSF and trout is the GSF are not as tall bodied as BG so the trout would be able to swallow the GSF easier compared to BG. If trout will gorge on small insect larvae the smaller size of your GSF should be no problem of the trout eating them. It is doubtful that the sunfish have to be in the 1.25" range for the trout to eat them.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/30/12 03:49 PM.

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Also the fin structure is GSF not BG as is the body shape. Not sure the genetics are pure or there could be some local adaptation.














Last edited by ewest; 09/30/12 04:09 PM.















ewest #308015 09/30/12 06:28 PM
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I can't rule out HBG, but the more pictures I see, the more I lean towards GSF.


www.hoosierpondpros.com


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
Bill Cody #308019 09/30/12 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
It is doubtful that the sunfish have to be in the 1.25" range for the trout to eat them.


I take this as the trout will eat 1.25", or even bigger? I just want to make sure I am understanding it correctly. I have never even seen a RBT (first hand), so I wouldn't know a thing in regards to them.

If I were to stock RBT to knock these back, should I not stock other forage fish, like,FHM, so the RBT hammer these unwanted fish harder?

The fish farm said the trout are 10-14", with most 11-12".

Last edited by fish n chips; 09/30/12 06:37 PM.
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Trout 11"-12" will consume fish up to at least 1.5" long. Adding FHM now in fall with the trout will take some of the predation influence off the sufish. I would wait till late June when trout are dead or close to dying to add the FHM. Adult sunfish will spawn again in June so you might want to consider adding two sizes of bass 2"-4" and 4"-6" along with the FHM. Or skip the FHM and let the bass feed heavily on the hewly hatched sunfish and last year's hatch of sunfish.


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Do not stock FHM, you want the trout forced to feed on the GSF. If they have FHM to feed on them, they will focus on the easier to catch and feed on prey, instead of the GSF.

The bigger size RBT will be more effective predators, but even the 12" and maybe even the 10" will hammer GSF, particular if other food is limited.

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I see that F-n-chips has added bass. You might want to just add some 4"-6" bass in the spring to help control remaining sunfish from 2012 hatch. No one answered your question about cost of rotenone for 1.25 ac.
A rough estimate of chemical will be about 3 gallons and retail cost of chemical could be around $300, labor to apply it may take 2-3 hrs.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 09/30/12 07:39 PM.

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Bill Cody #308033 09/30/12 07:52 PM
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No, I have not added bass. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that.

And thank you for the estimate on the rotenone. I have seen alot of users for it, but didn't have a clue to what something like that costs. Not bad for a good solution to a problem, however I will try to combat nature with itself.

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Would it be safe to say that whatever this fish eventually iD'S as,
that it is NOT appearing to have good BG traits? In other words, good BG stock of this size would be looking different already?

Ps. What would be AWAG to the number of trout to go after them? Aprox 1.25 acres. At first I was guessing there were 200 little BG/GSF. A group of 20/30 here/there. Today, I think I was noticing more. And then there is the old saying "for everyone you see, there are a dozen more". I just don't want to be overerly cruel to the RBT with overcrowding.

Last edited by fish n chips; 09/30/12 08:11 PM.
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Your goal should not be concern of cruelty to the trout but the need of heavy predation of the small sunfish. Without predation in 1.2 ac there could easily be 50-100 more than your guess. I see the bass fingerling pictures on page 1 were fish stocked by esshup.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/01/12 08:32 AM.

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Bill Cody #308182 10/02/12 08:56 AM
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So I am getting a plan together for stocking next week:

October 2012:

30-40 RBT 10-14" -- Plan on taking out aprox 10 before christmas. Since I have them I want to have a little fun while I'm at it.

150 RE 3-4"

50 LMB 2-4"

Catch whatever problematic adult sunfish I can.

Spring 2013
300 BG ? Size

50 LMB 4-6"

100 CC 4-6"

Start feeding Program

Keep trying to catch problematic adult Sunfish.
-------

Any thoughts or comments?

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First are you sure what fish are available ?

50 RBT

RES - ok

25 6-8 in LMB now and spring

Adult BG early spring

Long term that is to many predators (LMB & CC) - harvest will be critical.

Doing reworks is always a challenge requiring mgt based on as much info as possible.

Last edited by ewest; 10/02/12 09:25 AM.















ewest #308195 10/02/12 11:26 AM
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I agree with ewest, but I'd think about stocking all the LMB now, and here's why. You have a population of unknown sunfish in the pond. Your goal is to grow large BG. The unknown sunfish will pollute the gene pool of the BG once spawning starts. I'd want the LMB in the pond this year, and stock them large enough so they can start preying on the unwanted sunfish. Stock RES, but make sure they are large enough to avoid predation by the stocked LMB. When ordering fish, bank on many of the ones ordered to be at the smaller end of the size range, so keep that in mind with regards to your management plans.

On a personal basis, I like to stock Golden Trout in my pond because I like to see the fish swimming around, and watching them come up for food. I've found that the Goldens are more agressive towards lures than RBT when stocked in the same pond. A couple of years ago I stocked 75 RBT adn 25 Goldens in my pond. I caught the Goldens 3:1 vs the RBT even tho their population was lower.

If you want a source of Goldens, try calling Crystal Springs Fish Hatchery in Mi. John Nelski. I know he has Goldens health certified for stocking in Indiana and Illinois, I didn't ask about Ohio.


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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).
esshup #308208 10/02/12 12:31 PM
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Ok. So here are some of my thoughts and more details and we'll see if I am thinking right/wrong.

I have checked with the supplier, and all of the sizes, amounts and types are available...except HSB.


I am worried that if I go with LMB 4-6" they will go after some of the RE 3-4". Is this wrong? (edit)-- Also, my thinking on the smaller LMB was that they could get into tighter areas to feed on the smallest of unwanted sunfish.

In the spring of 2013 I will start feeding. Before renovation, I was experimenatal feeding and it seemed like the CC were the biggest eaters. So I thought that they might easily go for the feed instead of natural forage. ??? I can include a dose of FHM in the spring, but thought it would be better to keep the predators going after the unwanted sunfish. I have thought about going with just larger CC and no LMB, but is that crazy? It would be an experiment at best....


Last edited by fish n chips; 10/02/12 03:24 PM.
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fish n chips,if this was my pond i would have added 1 or 2 nice lmb as soon as I saw the fish.I'd then probably have waited till temps where in rainbow territory and added them,all the while keeping a eye on things.While playing around as soon or if the rainbows start to look skinny I'd fire up a feeder and or add fat heads in order to have table fare come spring.

Depending on things that happen,come spring I'd eat well on the rainbows and have rethought my plan.and more then likely depending on the lmb I added I'd try and prevent a spawn.

but that is me and i'm far from a expert,although unlike the experts I don't believe in killing off ponds unless absolutely unavoidable.

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Continued.....

Originally Posted By: ewest

Doing reworks is always a challenge requiring mgt based on as much info as possible.


I like challenges, but it does get the head spinning with all the different things to consider. smile sick confused



Originally Posted By: ewest
Adult BG early spring



I can get 4-6" BG in the spring, but that seems small for adults? I am tossing around the idea of building a cage, buying BG 2-4" to grow out to ?inches . The cage would also let me go after the unwanted sunfish with heavy predatation. But, I still am up in the air on this. If I did do this I could catch a larger LMB and put it in to go after some of the unwanted sunfish that made it thru this winter and got larger. But,it probably would eat my RE too. Sounds like trouble to me. Probably need to just fish it hard to catch the current spawners and any that escape the predators this winter. And possibly set up a trap...


Originally Posted By: ewest

Long term that is to many predators (LMB & CC) - harvest will be critical.


I am striving for a hungry predator to go after unwanted sunfish. Then transition to a good BG pond. I thought that I want it to be LMB heavy (and CC should help this too ?). Since the CC would take to pellets before LMB, I thought they would do this rather than starve, leaving the LMB to still go after the sunfish and possible CC spawns.


My head is spinning now. Time to take a break...........Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

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Robert-NJ, I was typing as you replied. We think alot alike. I feel sorry for you laugh

I too like the idea of big LMB to take care of everything. I am just afraid that I couldn't catch 'em, then I would have to add really large stockers. I could grow the BG out in cages, buy big enough CC, but what about the RES ? It may be too late in the season for the LMB to do much good now.

I don't like the idea of a total killoff either. I do like challenges, and trying to think outside the box is a fun part to me. Nature has decided to throw me a curve ball, and I want to see if I can manage to work with it.

Last edited by fish n chips; 10/02/12 04:41 PM.
esshup #308225 10/02/12 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: esshup
I agree with ewest, but I'd think about stocking all the LMB now, and here's why. You have a population of unknown sunfish in the pond. Your goal is to grow large BG. The unknown sunfish will pollute the gene pool of the BG once spawning starts. I'd want the LMB in the pond this year, and stock them large enough so they can start preying on the unwanted sunfish. Stock RES, but make sure they are large enough to avoid predation by the stocked LMB. When ordering fish, bank on many of the ones ordered to be at the smaller end of the size range, so keep that in mind with regards to your management plans.

On a personal basis, I like to stock Golden Trout in my pond because I like to see the fish swimming around, and watching them come up for food. I've found that the Goldens are more agressive towards lures than RBT when stocked in the same pond. A couple of years ago I stocked 75 RBT adn 25 Goldens in my pond. I caught the Goldens 3:1 vs the RBT even tho their population was lower.

If you want a source of Goldens, try calling Crystal Springs Fish Hatchery in Mi. John Nelski. I know he has Goldens health certified for stocking in Indiana and Illinois, I didn't ask about Ohio.


Scott,

If John (Crystal Springs) is good to go in Indiana he should be good to go in Ohio as far as testing. I also know he's sold trout in Ohio. The only slight impediment is he may need a "pre-entry" permit but that is doable.

I know Michigan and Indiana need '"pre-entry" permits on top of the health testing, but not sure about Ohio.

Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 10/02/12 04:50 PM.

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The LMB and BG with help from RBT should , over time, take care of the unwanted sunfish. That is with your help by harvest/removal. I would spend the time and effort looking for adult BG and RES and larger LMB (8 - 10 in would be great). 50 - 25 now and 25 in spring - or all 50 now would be good. You could use a cage to grow out fish but you need BG that will spawn this spring and produce lots of babies. Another idea is to seine out as many of the sunfish as possible. Check to see what all your fish source options are as that will be your biggest problem.

Last edited by ewest; 10/02/12 08:21 PM.















ewest #308262 10/03/12 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: ewest
The LMB and BG with help from RBT should , over time, take care of the unwanted sunfish. That is with your help by harvest/removal. I would spend the time and effort looking for adult BG and RES and larger LMB (8 - 10 in would be great). 50 - 25 now and 25 in spring - or all 50 now would be good. You could use a cage to grow out fish but you need BG that will spawn this spring and produce lots of babies. Another idea is to seine out as many of the sunfish as possible. Check to see what all your fish source options are as that will be your biggest problem.


I do have the possiblity to catch nicer size fish out of a lake nearby. However, questions that arise from that are:

1) Are the RES of a 6-8" able to make the move succesfully?

2) The largest BG I have caught there are 7-8". They are the nicest size BG around in any BOW near me. Is this a bad idea because they may not be a good strain of BG for stocking? Would they eventually have offspring that can get bigger?

3) What is the reason I want to make sure the good BG spawn this spring?

4) Everyones defination must vary on this, but what is adult BG size? Common sense tells me adult is when they are large enough to spawn, but isn't BG able to start doing this at a small size.

I apologize for what is simple questions. I have been following PondBoss for aprox 3 years now and have read alot. I was planning on spending my whole winter reading more and formulizing a stocking plan. I just feel now I have to act quickly.

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