Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Feeding Aquamax differences?

Post them

Yes post the pics.

I sent the scan of the two tags (old vs. new) to Ms. Fischer at Purina yesterday. She thanked me, and let me know they were investigating the listings and would be in touch with their findings.

Did we ever get an answer if Purina is going to have a booth at the PBoss Conference?

As soon as I get the two bags I'll post the photos

It'd be interesting if Cargill, Silver Cup and Zeiglers all had booths at the PB Conference, along with Purina.

I wonder if the PB office contacted them and told them about the conference???

Photo of AM 500 label attached. Sorry I haven't figured out how to include the picture in the post, I'll work on that.

The AM 500 was delivered to the store on 8-30-12 and I picked it up 9-2-12.

$40 per bag including tax

Lovinlivin has the new tags/formulation? also.

Thanks. Let's hope for an answer soon.

If there's any other info on the bag that you'd like to know about, let me know.

What is catfish oil?

This whole Purina thing has got me wondering if I should change.

My feed store, which has always been able to supply me weekly, has been short ordered and now unable to get my Purina products on a weekly basis.

So, I'm trying another store first, but need a smaller pellet for my CNBG pond. So, is Aquamax Grower 400 the correct feed for my 1" to 4" CNBG? There's no Purina reference to any LMB or BG products other than Game Fish Chow and Aquamax Largemouth.

I'm going through this larger AQ500 at a much faster rate, so, not knowing what else to do, I dropped by my local supplier to order another bag this morning. Another surprise: my local dealer is now ordering only every two weeks, AND, this morning was the order date. I just missed it. Now I'm looking at the 19th before I can get feed.

She asked if I wanted to order multiple bags, to accomodate their delivery schedule, but at this point I'm unsure of what I'm going to do. I'll try another supplier first, and see how that goes. I don't know if the delivery schedule change is due to Purina, or my local dealer, but either way it's aggravating.

Hopefully, I can get some answers soon and base my decisions on what I find out.

Delivery to your dealer is no doubt up to the dealer and his sales volume with Purina. Purina would deliver daily if requested.
IMO going through feed faster is probably due to better flavor and fish eating more of the feed and some due to more fish eating feed. Be careful to not allow fish to become overly abundant. IMO it is better to have fewer larger fish compared to more smaller and or larger fish who may be too crowded. Crowding results in problems - often unseen or unrealized problems.

I need to pull the tags from my 500 and 600 bags as well and see what they say. I also have a 400 bag I could post to see if it has changed as well.

My lead time at where I get food is 2 weeks but they told me that is what they were told from where they get there food. Plus I think they have either a 2 ton or 5 ton min order they have to send in.

I ordered some AM Dense 4000 for my tilapia does anyone know if that formulation has changed any?

FireIsHot see if this helps. 400 should work.

http://aquamax.purinamills.com/aquamaxproductlist.pdf

ewest thanks. I'll save it.

Just ordered 2 bags of 400 and 2 of 500 locally. This is the second large feed store that was less than thrilled with Purina right now. They didn't complain about their products at all, just said Purina deliveries can be problematic.

Apparently Aquamax products are a special order around here, and that puts them on a 2 week delivery schedule. Livestock products are no problem, and they can get them quickly if they're not in stock.

If any of you Dallas/East TX guys are interested, I may want to split a pallet next Spring. I'll check on prices then, and repost if it seems financially feasible.

I'm sure you are correct Bill, I have noticed an increase in consumption in the HSB/CC pond where I hydrate the feed. Interestingly, in the HBG pond where I do not hydrate, they seem less interested in feeding, which is unusual behaviour for them. They still feed, but I have cut back on the daily amount.

Also, the old feed required a much longer amount of time to hydrate fully. I use a gallon ziplock bag, add the water and lay it out flat, turning it over after about 10 minutes time. If the concrete where I lay it out was hot, it would soften much quicker. Now, temperature doesn't seem to matter nearly as much. I fed this past weekend, in the rain, on a cooler, overcast day. The old feed would still be hard as BB's after five minutes hydration, but the new is nearly paste after that time frame, in spite of the cooler temps.

It smells remarkably like dogfood to me, and seems to spoil? quicker... As an example, I have fed the same way for three years. Dispense the hydrated feed from the ziplock, and return the empty bag to the bulk feed container. There would usually be a little residue left in the bag, no liquid present, just a few remnants. Repeat process the next evening, with the same ziplock. No problems ever, and no smell. I could use the same bag for a couple of months.

Now, I replace the bags every couple of days. The smell of soured feed inside that bag is terrible. It draws insects to the storage container, which I never had a problem with before. I'm sure this all sounds strange, but it's what I have experienced. I'm just looking for answers.

I have found that fish eat hydrated pellets better than dry hard pellets. But if they have never eaten hydrated pellets they will and appear to eat dry food very well.

I don't hydrate pellets in bags, that is a CB1 method. IMO bag hydration tends to be too messy and you have less control of what you are doing and how the pellets are hydrating. I prefer a 1.5 gal fairly rigid plastic container with snap lid. When the container collects some dried residue I simply wash it. With the proper amount of water, I basically get a dry container when I am done feeding the pellets. There should be no residue after feeding. With residue try using less water to hydrate. EAch batch of pellets will often require slightly different amounts of water to pellet ratio.

You are very correct in observing that the pellets hydrate faster if warm or at higher temps. I sometimes put them in the microwave after they have absorbed all the water as sit for 5-10 min. This fairly quickly gets water to the center of the pellets based on pellet diameter. I have pellets soaking now at 1:15pm for the evening feeding. Soaking the day before also works for me. I can store uneaten food in the frig for 1-2 days without it molding. After day one the AM pellets will usualy not mold into shapes, but Zeigler and Silver Cup pellets will still mold okay. Dr Griffin from Purina told me that was probably due to the amount of gluten and the heating process of making the pellets.

AquaMax® diets were recently manufactured in Macon Mississippi because of capacity issues at Richmond Indiana.
I talked to the nutritionists at Purina® Animal Nutrition and they said the color of AquaMax® 500 and 600 may show a slight change because these products were recently manufactured at Macon, Mississippi until they can bring all production back to Richmond, Indiana, AquaMax’s home. The change in color is due to a shift in grain source from primarily wheat and wheat products to corn. Grain is required in floating fish diets for proper manufacturing. Without starch, they can’t extrude the feed to make it float. When shifting production from one manufacturing plant to another, slight changes in the formulas are sometimes necessary to compensate for slight differences in the availability, source of ingredients and their nutrient content. The actual amount of grain between the old and new formulas is very similar. In the case of the fish food produced in Macon, instead of splitting the starch over several grain products, all starch here comes from corn, because that’s what they have. The amount of fish meal and other animal proteins are also very similar to the original products made in Indiana. The ingredient statement on the labels/tags listed corn as the first ingredient because the amount of corn in the diet is actually slightly more than fish meal. However, if you add up all the animal-protein ingredients, they are well over half the formula and considerably more than twice the level of corn. AquaMax® contains over 40% protein. Since corn only contains approximately 7.5% protein, there is much more animal protein ingredients in the diet than corn. The formulas have been adjusted so that Fish Meal will be listed as the first ingredient on future production runs of these formulas, when the grain products are again a mixed bag. Purina® Animal Nutrition apologized for the confusion.
So, here’s the bottom line. Purina asked another of their mills to help keep the supply chain moving. That mill doesn’t have the same grain ingredients as the AquaMax home mill in Indiana. As soon as they catch up with their supply chain, the manufacturing of AquaMax® diets will be moved back to Richmond and the appearance will return to normal. The color change is because corn is lighter color and wheat is darker. That’s it…they haven’t changed the backbone of the formula, especially what’s most important to us…fish meal.

Thanks for the information Bob, it is much appreciated. I'm going to gather my thoughts for a little while, then I'll likely have a comment or two.

Perhaps the skeletal structure is intact, but there's definitely been some changes to the internal organs that makes the thing tick. In the end, my fundamental question has been addressed, if not outright answered. Hopefully, all will be well when production shifts back to Indiana. The difference in color, while probably the characteristic most likely to be noticed by the average user, was only one of the changes I noted, and arguably the least consequential. I am not well educated in these matters, certainly not so much as many here, so if Purina tells me that the differences in smell, hydration qualities, physical size, and the sheer amount of loose "grit" in the feed is due to an influx of corn, then I am bound to accept their explanation. At least until a better sounding one comes along.

I do have a problem reconciling their grain explanation with the missing data on the label, but as I am endowed with a cynical, somewhat suspicious disposition, I am willing to concede that the problem I perceive with this issue probably lies strictly with me.

I have absolutely no doubt that a formula exists within Purina that specifies that when (X)amount of wheat is removed, then (Y)amount of corn should be added (along with other ingredient changes) to compensate. And I'm sure it looks good on paper. I wonder though, if any of this new formulation was tested in a real world environment, by folks who handle this feed everyday, and not just by a well meaning group of nutritionists. I knew the second I opened that bag that the feed was different. A heads up from Purina beforehand, would've been nice.

Bob, thanks again for getting to the bottom of this issue. Personally, I'm still undecided which direction I'm going to go, but at least I'm not worried about feeding this stuff in the meantime.

My local Purina distributer here in central Louisiana has been having difficulty receiving my AQ order as well. They also have it as a special order and make that order biweekly. I'm not sure if this is beneficial to any others but I make my order 300,400 & 500 and once I receive it, I wait a short period and make another order which offsets any delays that may happen as we are seeing now. I continue the process keeping a steady supply of AQ on hand but monitor closely not to have the food more than a couple of months.

by Sprkplug "if any of this new formulation was tested in a real world environment, by folks who handle this feed everyday, and not just by a well meaning group of nutritionists."

While not on this product there has been lots of testing of the basic contents as they relate to proteins , carbohydrates and lipids in pond fish. We had a presentation at the last conf. on that.

I have done a good deal of checking on the topic (and gave the presentation) for the same reasons you are asking. I can tell you that I have no concern with these changes as to feeding my fish.

Carbs (the source of your question) are not beneficial to most pond predator fishes (LMB ,BG , etc) . From a nutrition point of view it is the protein and lipid sources that are key and the fish meal source is key. HSB can use carbs and the data shows that they can use even low quality sources. HSB can get obese in tanks fed the same diets as the other predators because they can also use the carbs.

See this http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=266697&page=2

Thanks Ewest, the reassurance is most appreciated. I do hope the concern, as well as the diligence I expressed in looking for answers to these questions has not been a source of aggravation to anyone.