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#304646 08/27/12 10:22 AM
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Stocked these 3 eating machines into my 1/4 acre pond this weekend.



I plan on puting in 5-10 more. Very predator heavy!! There is YP,BG,BCP,BH in this pond. Lets see how effective these beasts are at eating up my over populated 1/4 acre pond. There is no structure in the pond with very clear water.

Any predictions over the next 2 seasons?

mnfish #304649 08/27/12 10:30 AM
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IN a Pond that small I would just leave it at 3 and they might get some real size. 10 of them in a small pond , they will be pretty hungry after awhile and not get as large for you....IMO


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Good point Bobby. I should have stated my goal here.

My goal here is to raise and maintain a population of large BCP in a small body of water.

I want those pike to stay at a certain size so they target fish between 2-7" leaving the smaller forage for the BCP.

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mnfish - I doubt the NP will heed your advice and stay small. IMO they will eliminate your YP over the next few years especially the YP 8"-10" or sizes that you prefer to harvest. They are also likely to prey pretty hard on the BH which may be in your plans. BG and BCP will be the least favored prey but they will definately get consumed. Ideally you want male NP not females. Male NP stay smaller than females. If you had a choice of stockers IMO it would have been best to choose the runts (probably males) in the tank thus maybe getting closer to slower growing NP. Keep us advised of your progress. I am very interested in how your YP handle the NP introductions.

I always doubted the "eating machine" label the NP often get. Toothy yes, aggressive - maybe not so much. I doubt that pound for pound an NP eats more than a LMB. I've worked with NP and LMB and IMO you can't get much more aggessive behavior than a LMB. Granted a NP can develop a larger weight than a LMB. It is understandable that the larger weight predator will eat more than the smaller predator. It takes a certain amount of fish biomass to gain a pound of body weight, so unless a fish is adding more weight per year than another fish the amount eaten is probably very similar.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/27/12 11:00 AM.

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mnfish #304758 08/28/12 06:39 AM
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10 pikes in 1/4 acre pond? Oh, that's a short term deal...
At first I have to say that they won't stay at size you wish. Pikes grow fast and they eat much. After some time they will have consumed all of possible suitable fish and will eat your crappies. After that they will try to eat other pikes. In the first spring they will spawn and after that you'll get a pond of pikes... Most of them will be small and hungry (eating only some insects, frogs and other pikes).

Sounds like a horror story for you? I'll tell you a REAL story.

Sometimes I visit my friend and we used to go fishing crucian carps to a pond (~1 acre) - pond was full of them because these fish reproduce well (even better that that wink ). Once I asked him to go fishing but he replied that there is no point to go because of the lack of fish. I was surprised because last year I saw huge amount of fish, so I visited that pond.
Water was very clear and I didn't see any fish. Strange. After some fishing and watching I agreed that all those crucian carps were gone but where and how?
Nobody could catch all of them.
Predators couldn't be responsible for that because nobody stocked them.
After some thinking we decided that some irresponsible farmer in close neighbourhood used pesticides and fish died of that.

I visited the pond after some time and somehow I was lucky enough to see something like pike. I returned home, got my rod and soon caught a small pike. There were pikes, though.
That summer we both often went fishing to that pond. All we got were small and starving pikes.

I may imagine the whole situation. In the spring pikes managed to get into the pond. How? I think that's beavers fault. It travels from a nearest ditch to pond and back. Pikes like that ditch for spawning and probably fish eggs travelled to pond attached to beavers fur. If not beaver then maybe ducks did the same.
Some amount of them survived and started growing. Probably the first summer nobody could notice changes because pikes were still young and amount of crucian carps was sufficient. After some while they reached a bit more weight and started eating all around them. In the next summer I visited the pond and saw nothing...

What happens right now? Pikes are skinny and always hungry. Larger of them eat smaller ones and all possible live creatures - frogs, insects, some swimming mice and so on.

Too bad that I can't say how much pikes were there in the beginning. Maybe a great amount of them and that caused that rapid eliminating of those poor crucian carps. But anyway even 3 pikes (if not the same sex) could do the same but in a longer time.


Be careful with pikes in a small pond.

Last edited by Grundulis; 08/28/12 06:42 AM.
mnfish #304827 08/28/12 04:55 PM
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I was hoping Dr. Willis would comment. After reading his article about pike again, it got me thinking (which is usually not very productive). I know I'm playing with fire here with these pike but heck we will all learn something from this. smile

Dr. Willis wrote that pike target fish 33%-40% of their body length and will clean out a pond very quickley. My hope is to let them eat for two years and then remove by line and/or trap. My assumption and want is that they will not reproduce in a pond this small. Once removed, the BCP 8" or greater will once again be the top line predator with little competition for food.

How much can they possibly grow in 2 years with unlimited food?

mnfish #304828 08/28/12 05:02 PM
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Might it be safer, from the view point that a miraculous pike spawn would ruin your pond, to stock one animal of a few different species?

A big blue cat or flathead will absolutely turn things all Jack the Ripper in a little pond like that.

I might think about one of them and one northern and maybe one largemouth.


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mnfish #304831 08/28/12 05:22 PM
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I credit the few female NP in our 5 acre pond with improving the overall health of the pond's fish population.

We have many species in many sizes and they all continue to reproduce and thrive. I think different crazy and apparently our pond is different; it all works in harmony here.

I know that a 40" NP will eat a lot and 1 of those in a 1/4 acre pound would become lonely pretty fast.

I am not so sure they belong in that small of a pond. Maybe one?


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mnfish #304883 08/28/12 10:25 PM
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I can't wait to see how this turns out... Please keep us updated! I would like to research chain pickerel more. Similar to pike, they just don't get huge and thus only prey on the size class of fish most people want removed.

mnfish #304890 08/29/12 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: mnfish
My assumption and want is that they will not reproduce in a pond this small.


You may hope but be ready to find out that somehow they have managed to spawn... These aren't trouts and spawn easier.

Originally Posted By: mnfish

Dr. Willis wrote that pike target fish 33%-40% of their body length



They eat everything that's available. At first they might be fish with size you mentioned but after that all small ones and large ones too.

mnfish #304894 08/29/12 01:57 AM
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Don't pike bite people? (More than 33-40% of their body length.)


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mnfish #304908 08/29/12 07:44 AM
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About the only time pike bite people is when people stick their fingers in the pike's mouth.


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Bill Cody #304910 08/29/12 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
About the only time pike bite people is when people stick their fingers in the pike's mouth.


I have to agree with that! I grew up in North Wis. and in all that time I think we only had 1 or 2 Musky attacts on small kids and I think that was from reaction as they got to close to them or jumped into the water right on top of them. One of the kids had to have 60 stitches in her leg. (Very Rare Thing Though) I have NEVER heard of a Pike doing that. As far as what Pike will eat??? Man once they get to be 30, 40 inches long anything goes. All fish, snakes, baby ducks, small adult ducks. ( yes I have seen this in action myself) I think they are good eating also if you can get around all the Y bones when you clean them.

Last edited by RC51; 08/29/12 07:57 AM.

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Bill Cody #304954 08/29/12 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
About the only time pike bite people is when people stick their fingers in the pike's mouth.


Like RC51, I grew up in northern Wisconsin. From the time I was 3 or 4 y.o., I was fishing at every opportunity I had. I literally grew up with northern pike and musky out the back door.

Yes, I've drawn back a number of bloodied fingers because of pike and walleye. But, it was always my own fault, as I was trying to retrieve a hook or lure.

I've seen baby ducks get swallowed down by big musky. But in my 65 years I've never known any person to be attacked by a fish from the pike or perch family.

I'm more afraid of my hybrid sunfish, and their green cousins.

Ken


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mnfish #304974 08/29/12 06:44 PM
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Mnfish - here I am! As a first comment, I agree with thoughts of one pike per quarter acre might be enough?? If it gets to 5 pounds, that is 20 pounds per acre, which is a very high biomass for northern pike. I also agree with Dwight that pike in low abundance may not be a problem and likely will help with some predation. A good example might be a pond with a high density of small largemouth bass and BIG bluegills. A low density of,pike added to that pond can result in fewer, bigger bass, but still with the bigger bluegill. The few pike crop the abundant small bass so bass growth increases, but pike must also be eating at least afew bluegills and help keep them at the large sizes.


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mnfish #304987 08/29/12 08:20 PM
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Look for the next PB mag. It will have an article on Musky and how they interact with other species. After the research I think I would rather have Musky than NP.
















mnfish #305009 08/29/12 09:37 PM
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Here are my thoughts take em for what they are worth.

First Mnfish pond is not the typical pond and has no largemouth bass in it currently.

Second the man and his people fish this pond like crazy.

So what that means is he is capable and devoted to intensively manage this pupppy. Typically recommendations for ponds are based upon the what the owner is capable of, not what fish will do on their own once stocked.

In this situation I like Pike better than Muskie, because my experiences show catch rates of pike to muskie greater than 10 to 1. I stock lots of pike and muskie each fall and have the privilege of monitoring closely the fish populations of many of the lakes that get stocked with these fish.

So Im all for his original plan of putting 10 northerns in there instead of three and I love the attempt at keeping largemouth out completely! So for your situation just simply remove the pike when caught once it reaches about 28 inches long.

keep the total population at about 10 fish or under and simply put them in and take them out as needed. maybe you find out that you need to get some out and then just lower your size limit, maybe you find out you could add a few more. Find a good taxidermist to start decorating your cabin with home grown "trophies" or simply eat them.

put them in and take them out, you have control. Adjust the program as needed. no worries of ruining your pond, pike reproduction is extremely rare in situations such as yours.

going into fall of next year, maybe consider adding 50 lbs of trout to the mix to have some good fun ice fishing and to push some serious pounds on the pike over winter. (but then you'll have to take em out come spring!)

I have many experiments going with pike and muskie in small ponds and they are just alot of fun. people just catch the pike way more than the muskies in every situation.


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Thanks for all the inputs guys. Very helpful for me. Nate read my thoughts exactly. For my situation and goals, I defined the perfect predator:

1. I can put and take as needed. Maintaining the "right" size and numbers
2. Capable of eating a lot of 7" BCP or BG
2. Has limited or little chance for reproduction
3. Doesn't compete with a BCP preferred forage(s)
4. Inexpensive and readily available

NP!

Maybe, I don't know. Watch, I will have a freak pond and the NP recruitment will be huge! smile Now that would be one large mess of a pond.

Nate - I have 3 stocked now. You would take it to 10 and wait until they were 28" to remove. They are 18-20" now. How long to get to 28" assuming unlimited food?

mnfish #305042 08/30/12 05:12 AM
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maybe try to get 3-5 every fall and then literally probably sometime midsummer or fall of 2013 start removing the larger ones. More than likely these first three will have the fastest growth rates, and blow up into 26-28" very quick!

definitely keep this thread updated every time a pike is caught to monitor their growth along with your observations of the impact on your unique fishery as a whole!


mnfish #305051 08/30/12 08:16 AM
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I thought the goal was for the Esox to reduce the other species not to catch them. I would rather go with Muskie and not chance a hammer handle NP explosion.
















mnfish #305056 08/30/12 08:50 AM
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This will be a good learning experience for us about use of NP in small intensively managed ponds. Thanks for sharing it with us. Nate's experience and comments about use of NP make sense. I am interested in how the NP affect the YP population dynamics primarily as far as numbers and size structure. YP are fusiform and BCP-BG are rounder bodied. It will be interesting to see if the NP 'hammer' the YP more than the other panfish - BG, BCP, BH. Please try to keep some catch records of the sizes of panfish and numbers that you catch per hour of angling. Compare before or early NP introduction and after several years post introduction. Inquiring minds want to know.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 08/30/12 08:55 AM.

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mnfish #305059 08/30/12 09:17 AM
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I will be highly surprised if NP successfully spawn in this pond. They struggle to spawn successfully in 200+ acre lakes many times...

mnfish #305062 08/30/12 09:22 AM
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It only takes once. I am aware of several oxbow lakes under 30 acres where the NP have spawned and they are crammed full of 10 inch hammer handles.
















mnfish #305066 08/30/12 09:40 AM
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Just wondering if he will be able to use the Fyke Net to view/remove any possible reproduction of the pike.

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If they reproduce, its draw down time and ohhhhh the humanity of killing everything and starting over! There will be no netting smile

Like EWEST, I have seen my share of over populated lakes full of Jacks. It's a mess!

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