Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Feeding Aquamax differences?

I bought a fresh bag of AQ500 today, and when I went to feed this evening something looked different. The new feed was darker, smelled different,and the pellets looked slightly larger, and had a "coarser" texture to it. The HBG seemed to eat it much the same as they always have, so I didn't think too much about it.

I always hydrate the feed for the other ponds, and when I went to feed those I noticed that the pre-soaked feed was noticeably bigger.... it always swells when wet, but this was bigger than normal.

When I returned home I compared the tag off of the bag I picked up this morning, with the tags from my last four bags....yes, I keep them...you never know...

The list of ingredients, as well as the guaranteed analysis, was exactly the same on the four older bags, but the new one was different. Crude protein has always been 41%, the new feed shows 41.3%.

Crude fat min. was always 12%, now it's decreased to 10.7%. Calcium has increased, along with ash. Sodium has decreased.

The first ingredient on AQ500 has been fish meal, as long as I've been paying attention anyway....now it's ground corn??

Anybody else notice a difference?

I have to buy feed next week, I'll look at the label on the AM600 then.

Forgot to mention...it was slightly more expensive also. That could very well be due to a yearly, planned price increase, or an amount tacked on by my local dealer however.

My 500 and 600 has jumped from $30.00 to $32.50. The dealer said it has to do with grain prices. I thought the grain being used is most likely from last year though?

Aquamax reserves the right to change ingredients and I believe it says so on the bag.

I guess I'm mostly concerned that any such changes don't impact my original reason for choosing AQ feed in the first place.. That being it contains a protein source derived primarily from fish meal, and not plant based.

Will check mine this weekend.

My purina dealer told me to expect a major hike next year, so did the guy who delivered my fish.. $7-$10 per bag.. I'm looking for a new product I'm pretty much disgusted with purina and I have to pick up 6 bags tomorrow. I think we need to start a thread on competitive products I know it's been talked about but not a specific thread on it..

I hear you. Considering the lack of communication from them on this website (and those here that have contacted them including myself with no response), and the explanation they gave on the overdose of Vitamin D (nothing to worry about in fish just for those that resold the feed for other types of animals) I could understand a healthy skepticism. My response to that is why the expensive recall then, and why worry about people repackaging it for other animals when it shouldn't be something a manufacturer is responsible for.

Would we really know if it was mostly grain now without analyzing it? Really?

I purchased 4 bags of AM 500 from Fenders fish farm at 34.00 per bag back in May. In July I purchased 4 more bags from a guy that has ponds to grow fish for meat sale and paid 32.00 per bag for AM 500 and same for AM 400. I noticed the feed was made last week of June and it was darker and larger also then the feed in May on the AM 500 that was left in the feeders. It would be nice to have another company to provide the 41% in differant sizes.

Iceman

Just picked up 4 bags of 600 same ingredients as always.. But a $1.05 cheaper weird.. Haven't examined the contents yet.. The tag is different paper and color everything else seems the same

sprkplug, does your tag say D505?

Well, all of my tags, old as well as the new, say 5D05. The old tags were printed on two sides, while the new tag only has printing on one side. All of the old tags I have also say Grower 500, as does the new tag.

The old tags say: "Food for trout, HSB, YP, Red Drum, Catfish and Tilapia".

The new tag says "Feed for starting fry fish"

All tags have the same numbers below the bar code, 27613 00047

The new tag also has a very noticeable "Extruded", in vertical lettering superimposed over the rest of the writing.

The date on the new bag is Aug 04.

As in august 4th or 2004?? The tags have definitely changed... Now I wished I'd kept tags lol..

August 4th...sorry

sprkplug -I've had the same concerns for AM 600 for the last 8-12 yrs that you are seeing with AM 400 & 500. I wonder about their Quality Control, My concerns have even been present even before they remained their trout chow and tweaked the formula to Aquamax. I've talked to company reps several times about the inconsistant pellet size, pellet color, and the way it absorbs water. Each bag in my experience is a little or noticably different as Sprkglug is saying. I get excuses from Purina such as availability of raw products and when the extruders that produce the pellets have been cleaned last. I think some other manufacturers have better quality control and a more consistant which is why some professional trout farmers prefer brands other than Purina. Purina has invited me to vist the pellet manufacturing plant in Richmond IN. They evidently give tours.

So, what are our best options for fish food? It seems I gravitate to Purina because of availability. Even feed stores that don't stock it can get it delivered with their other regular shipments so convenience seems to be my biggest reason for buying it.

I'd be curious what brand fish farms use, because of 1, the volume they feed, and 2, their desire to grow their stock as fast as possible to get them sell ready. I know Todd Overton has pallets of food stored, but I didn't want to start rummaging through his stuff last trip down. I'd hate to get shot at a fish farm over being nosy.

Any of you fish farm guys want to chime in?

Bill, I'm glad to hear you say that. By virtue of my desire to hand feed, I've got my fingers in this stuff every day. I've opened new bags that were a slightly different color before, usually darker, but I always just assumed that the color variation was due to freshness....so much for what I thought I knew.

This last bag however, is markedly different. Different color, different texture, different smell, different labeling, different qualities during hydration....

I just think I've handled too much of it to not notice a change. Something's different. Now I just want to find out if this change will impact my fish, and to what degree.

Fish farm feed is not necessarily the best for long term feeding as they have different goals ( for example like feeding baby animals very high fat milk while adults don't need and don't use it well). Each species is different as to optimum requirements. We had a detailed presentation at the last convention on this topic.

Purina has an explanation on its web site about this question and Bill covered it - bulk ingredient differences can cause appearance differences ( http://aquamax.purinamills.com/aqua_faq_1.html ). I am not concerned about what is noted so far as the product is tested for variance all through the process (see the recall for slight increase in amount of D and E).

I am concerned about their apparent careless approach to customer service ( addressing concerns and questions). IMO we need to get past the sales reps and talk to the scientists at Purina.

IMO food quality from products of the major producers when the ingredients and amounts are close are not material to BG , CNBG ,RES , HSB , LMB and YP requirements in supp feeding. For example even supp feeding of 30 % catfish food is much , much better than no feeding for these fish species. With the CC food you likely get 75% of the value/result while the others may give 95% . So IMO with the similar type/quality foods by the different producers there is only a percent or two max difference when viewed in the light of nutrition requirments in supp feeding. If you are after the last few % of max results then there are several other matters much more important than what producer to use. If so then consider learning a lot more about each fish species and its nutrition requirments and look for producers of specialty feeds. Trout and other cold water fish are somewhat different and have special/different feeds.

ewest, so am I missing something by not looking at all the numbers on the food and just focusing on protein levels?

I have to admit I haven't really compared anything but protein levels, because I just assumed higher protein meant more productive food.

Ewest I hear you and I agree. I don't want to jump the gun and start switching feed if I don't have to. But that still leaves the most important question unanswered: Has the source of the protein in AQ500 changed any at all?

Ground corn is now the first ingredient listed on the tag. Is the majority of the protein still based on fish meal, or has a plant taken on more of that role?

What about the vitamin content? Where's it at?

New tag on left, old tag on right. Side "A"



New tag on right, (blank), old tag on left. Side "B"

Here's the tag from mine yesterday

After three days feeding out of the new bag, I can tell I'm using slightly more feed. When I throw out a handful, not as many pellets hit the water. I can't get as many in my hand. Also, the feed I hydrate doesn't go as far, even though I'm using the same containers I always have. The feed is physically bigger.

My label looks different but says the same thing. Will post a pic.



This was July 24 2012 date.

Just my luck to get the only bag that was different!

Maybe I'm part of a top-secret test program...

Well yours is 500 ours are 600 maybe the difference is only in 500

I always thought it was the same formula, just run through a different sized extruder.

I'll bet the difference has something to do with the date. Anybody have feed with a date of Aug. 4th, or later?

Where's the date printed?

BTW not sure it's important but Purina Mills farms out some of it's feed production. I was told by a distributor in Ohio some of the starter feeds are farmed out. I think he said Zeiglers.

Right below the stitching, on the bottom of the bag.

Ok I'll check tonight.. You think it's got anything todo with 500 vs 600

Not sure but would not think so.

SP Very good questions ! I would like to know as well. Also looks like the fish oil (catfish oil) has moved up in the list and been specified as to source.

I have queried Purina, but have not heard back....and from what I've read on here, there's a good chance I won't.

I can accept a change in some aspect of the feed I'm using, but when the feed is larger, smells different, hydrates differently, has far more "dust" in the bag than usual, AND carries a tag with additional changes noted on it, I tend to think there is in fact, something different going on.

Greg Grimes mentioned splitting hairs in another, similar thread, and while I agree that it may happen here from time to time, I truly believe that there IS a change in my new feed.

At this point, my primary concern is the source of the protein used in the feed....has it changed any at all??

Have asked that it be checked on and will report any news.

SP note my comment to Greg on that other thread.

SP my guess is the protein source is still the same mostely fish meal as adding a little more corn (enough to move it up the list) would not result in the increased protein amount ( up to 41.3 from 41%). Note the lipids (fat) went down which I suspect is from the increased corn and less animal protien (beef , chicken , blood) and or soy. There is evidence that too high of lipids long term is not good for several gamefish species. A lot of guessing on my part here until we get the facts.

"Just the facts mam just the facts."

I'm Joe Friday and this is my Partner Bill Gannon.

will purina be at the PB conference?

Yikes, I just bought 2 bags of AQ 500 for $80.25 with tax, and even that was hard to find, having to drive 25 miles to get it! Would have gotten 3 but they only got 4 in today and 2 were already spoken for.

Phoned Purina plant (Land O' Lakes) here in Lincoln and was told they only sell to dealers and even then orders are two weeks out as it's not manufactured here.

The only thing found locally is Sportsman's Choice Trophy Fish Feed, 25 lb bag for $12.99 at Tractor Supply. I'm having 100 6-8" HSB delivered and don't want to feed them chicken feathers (as I've heard some have).

Reading through this full post I can only agree on the availability and pricing fluctuation regarding Purina and Aquamax (customer service doesn't sound too good either).

Sorry to whine about driving 25 miles as I've seen many on PB that would probably love to drive only 25 miles to get it.

A quality alternative would be nice, or better availability from the local Purina feed dealers!

Silver Cup is great but is only sold by the pallet.

Unless you find someone that wants to be dealer or can combine orders. At least that is what they do up here, but to far from me to make it worthwhile. My nearest one is 2 hours away.

Some aquaculturists here tried to get Silver Cup to open a plant as Purina Mills wasn't very accommodating but they declined.

Cecil, what's Dr. Miller feeding?

I was trying to arrange a pick up of silver cup but I hear UTah is not a good state to get semi's loaded out of.. My father in law owns a trucking biz and he told me Utah just ain't good but all southern states are easy pickins so that's why I'm leaning towards Cargill..

Last I heard it was a special formulation of Zeiglers.

I received an email today from a Beverly Fischer at Purina. She informed me that the 5D05 is made in Richmond, IN, as well as Macon MS. From the information I provided to her, she believes my bag came from MS. She told me she was contacting their nutritionist, and would let me know what she found out. She apologized for taking so long to get back to me.

I would like to publicly thank Ms. Fischer for taking the time to respond, I greatly appreciate her efforts to assist me.

SP did she reply to an email you sent or just send you an email? Bob shook the tree and I want to know if this is a result of his action or a prior email you sent.

Eric, it was a reply to an email that I sent to her.

Scratch that... I sent an email to Purina itself, NOT her in particular... My bad.

I've been watching this post for some time with great interest. I too have noticed my AM 500 is different, especially when hydrated, it seems to grow to a larger size than in the past. I didn't review the tags on my AM, so I don't know if the formula was tinkered with, but something is definitely different with my 500 at least. I have no clue if the differences are positive, negative, or benign - just saying I too notice a difference in the physical characteristics of my most recent 500 pellets.

It does have one redeeming feature.... I can throw it a lot farther!

I just bought two bags of Aquamax 500 that I will be getting today or tomorrow, that the dealer just received. If you all would like I would be happy to post photos of the nutrient labels or whatever you would like to know about them.

I just had 100 HSB delivered yesterday in my newly restored BOW :), (along with 100 LMB), so the feeding is new to me but for all of the help I've gotten from the great people on PB, I want to do whatever I can to help.

Post them

Yes post the pics.

I sent the scan of the two tags (old vs. new) to Ms. Fischer at Purina yesterday. She thanked me, and let me know they were investigating the listings and would be in touch with their findings.

Did we ever get an answer if Purina is going to have a booth at the PBoss Conference?

As soon as I get the two bags I'll post the photos

It'd be interesting if Cargill, Silver Cup and Zeiglers all had booths at the PB Conference, along with Purina.

I wonder if the PB office contacted them and told them about the conference???

Photo of AM 500 label attached. Sorry I haven't figured out how to include the picture in the post, I'll work on that.

The AM 500 was delivered to the store on 8-30-12 and I picked it up 9-2-12.

$40 per bag including tax

Lovinlivin has the new tags/formulation? also.

Thanks. Let's hope for an answer soon.

If there's any other info on the bag that you'd like to know about, let me know.

What is catfish oil?

This whole Purina thing has got me wondering if I should change.

My feed store, which has always been able to supply me weekly, has been short ordered and now unable to get my Purina products on a weekly basis.

So, I'm trying another store first, but need a smaller pellet for my CNBG pond. So, is Aquamax Grower 400 the correct feed for my 1" to 4" CNBG? There's no Purina reference to any LMB or BG products other than Game Fish Chow and Aquamax Largemouth.

I'm going through this larger AQ500 at a much faster rate, so, not knowing what else to do, I dropped by my local supplier to order another bag this morning. Another surprise: my local dealer is now ordering only every two weeks, AND, this morning was the order date. I just missed it. Now I'm looking at the 19th before I can get feed.

She asked if I wanted to order multiple bags, to accomodate their delivery schedule, but at this point I'm unsure of what I'm going to do. I'll try another supplier first, and see how that goes. I don't know if the delivery schedule change is due to Purina, or my local dealer, but either way it's aggravating.

Hopefully, I can get some answers soon and base my decisions on what I find out.

Delivery to your dealer is no doubt up to the dealer and his sales volume with Purina. Purina would deliver daily if requested.
IMO going through feed faster is probably due to better flavor and fish eating more of the feed and some due to more fish eating feed. Be careful to not allow fish to become overly abundant. IMO it is better to have fewer larger fish compared to more smaller and or larger fish who may be too crowded. Crowding results in problems - often unseen or unrealized problems.

I need to pull the tags from my 500 and 600 bags as well and see what they say. I also have a 400 bag I could post to see if it has changed as well.

My lead time at where I get food is 2 weeks but they told me that is what they were told from where they get there food. Plus I think they have either a 2 ton or 5 ton min order they have to send in.

I ordered some AM Dense 4000 for my tilapia does anyone know if that formulation has changed any?

FireIsHot see if this helps. 400 should work.

http://aquamax.purinamills.com/aquamaxproductlist.pdf

ewest thanks. I'll save it.

Just ordered 2 bags of 400 and 2 of 500 locally. This is the second large feed store that was less than thrilled with Purina right now. They didn't complain about their products at all, just said Purina deliveries can be problematic.

Apparently Aquamax products are a special order around here, and that puts them on a 2 week delivery schedule. Livestock products are no problem, and they can get them quickly if they're not in stock.

If any of you Dallas/East TX guys are interested, I may want to split a pallet next Spring. I'll check on prices then, and repost if it seems financially feasible.

I'm sure you are correct Bill, I have noticed an increase in consumption in the HSB/CC pond where I hydrate the feed. Interestingly, in the HBG pond where I do not hydrate, they seem less interested in feeding, which is unusual behaviour for them. They still feed, but I have cut back on the daily amount.

Also, the old feed required a much longer amount of time to hydrate fully. I use a gallon ziplock bag, add the water and lay it out flat, turning it over after about 10 minutes time. If the concrete where I lay it out was hot, it would soften much quicker. Now, temperature doesn't seem to matter nearly as much. I fed this past weekend, in the rain, on a cooler, overcast day. The old feed would still be hard as BB's after five minutes hydration, but the new is nearly paste after that time frame, in spite of the cooler temps.

It smells remarkably like dogfood to me, and seems to spoil? quicker... As an example, I have fed the same way for three years. Dispense the hydrated feed from the ziplock, and return the empty bag to the bulk feed container. There would usually be a little residue left in the bag, no liquid present, just a few remnants. Repeat process the next evening, with the same ziplock. No problems ever, and no smell. I could use the same bag for a couple of months.

Now, I replace the bags every couple of days. The smell of soured feed inside that bag is terrible. It draws insects to the storage container, which I never had a problem with before. I'm sure this all sounds strange, but it's what I have experienced. I'm just looking for answers.

I have found that fish eat hydrated pellets better than dry hard pellets. But if they have never eaten hydrated pellets they will and appear to eat dry food very well.

I don't hydrate pellets in bags, that is a CB1 method. IMO bag hydration tends to be too messy and you have less control of what you are doing and how the pellets are hydrating. I prefer a 1.5 gal fairly rigid plastic container with snap lid. When the container collects some dried residue I simply wash it. With the proper amount of water, I basically get a dry container when I am done feeding the pellets. There should be no residue after feeding. With residue try using less water to hydrate. EAch batch of pellets will often require slightly different amounts of water to pellet ratio.

You are very correct in observing that the pellets hydrate faster if warm or at higher temps. I sometimes put them in the microwave after they have absorbed all the water as sit for 5-10 min. This fairly quickly gets water to the center of the pellets based on pellet diameter. I have pellets soaking now at 1:15pm for the evening feeding. Soaking the day before also works for me. I can store uneaten food in the frig for 1-2 days without it molding. After day one the AM pellets will usualy not mold into shapes, but Zeigler and Silver Cup pellets will still mold okay. Dr Griffin from Purina told me that was probably due to the amount of gluten and the heating process of making the pellets.

AquaMax® diets were recently manufactured in Macon Mississippi because of capacity issues at Richmond Indiana.
I talked to the nutritionists at Purina® Animal Nutrition and they said the color of AquaMax® 500 and 600 may show a slight change because these products were recently manufactured at Macon, Mississippi until they can bring all production back to Richmond, Indiana, AquaMax’s home. The change in color is due to a shift in grain source from primarily wheat and wheat products to corn. Grain is required in floating fish diets for proper manufacturing. Without starch, they can’t extrude the feed to make it float. When shifting production from one manufacturing plant to another, slight changes in the formulas are sometimes necessary to compensate for slight differences in the availability, source of ingredients and their nutrient content. The actual amount of grain between the old and new formulas is very similar. In the case of the fish food produced in Macon, instead of splitting the starch over several grain products, all starch here comes from corn, because that’s what they have. The amount of fish meal and other animal proteins are also very similar to the original products made in Indiana. The ingredient statement on the labels/tags listed corn as the first ingredient because the amount of corn in the diet is actually slightly more than fish meal. However, if you add up all the animal-protein ingredients, they are well over half the formula and considerably more than twice the level of corn. AquaMax® contains over 40% protein. Since corn only contains approximately 7.5% protein, there is much more animal protein ingredients in the diet than corn. The formulas have been adjusted so that Fish Meal will be listed as the first ingredient on future production runs of these formulas, when the grain products are again a mixed bag. Purina® Animal Nutrition apologized for the confusion.
So, here’s the bottom line. Purina asked another of their mills to help keep the supply chain moving. That mill doesn’t have the same grain ingredients as the AquaMax home mill in Indiana. As soon as they catch up with their supply chain, the manufacturing of AquaMax® diets will be moved back to Richmond and the appearance will return to normal. The color change is because corn is lighter color and wheat is darker. That’s it…they haven’t changed the backbone of the formula, especially what’s most important to us…fish meal.

Thanks for the information Bob, it is much appreciated. I'm going to gather my thoughts for a little while, then I'll likely have a comment or two.

Perhaps the skeletal structure is intact, but there's definitely been some changes to the internal organs that makes the thing tick. In the end, my fundamental question has been addressed, if not outright answered. Hopefully, all will be well when production shifts back to Indiana. The difference in color, while probably the characteristic most likely to be noticed by the average user, was only one of the changes I noted, and arguably the least consequential. I am not well educated in these matters, certainly not so much as many here, so if Purina tells me that the differences in smell, hydration qualities, physical size, and the sheer amount of loose "grit" in the feed is due to an influx of corn, then I am bound to accept their explanation. At least until a better sounding one comes along.

I do have a problem reconciling their grain explanation with the missing data on the label, but as I am endowed with a cynical, somewhat suspicious disposition, I am willing to concede that the problem I perceive with this issue probably lies strictly with me.

I have absolutely no doubt that a formula exists within Purina that specifies that when (X)amount of wheat is removed, then (Y)amount of corn should be added (along with other ingredient changes) to compensate. And I'm sure it looks good on paper. I wonder though, if any of this new formulation was tested in a real world environment, by folks who handle this feed everyday, and not just by a well meaning group of nutritionists. I knew the second I opened that bag that the feed was different. A heads up from Purina beforehand, would've been nice.

Bob, thanks again for getting to the bottom of this issue. Personally, I'm still undecided which direction I'm going to go, but at least I'm not worried about feeding this stuff in the meantime.

My local Purina distributer here in central Louisiana has been having difficulty receiving my AQ order as well. They also have it as a special order and make that order biweekly. I'm not sure if this is beneficial to any others but I make my order 300,400 & 500 and once I receive it, I wait a short period and make another order which offsets any delays that may happen as we are seeing now. I continue the process keeping a steady supply of AQ on hand but monitor closely not to have the food more than a couple of months.

by Sprkplug "if any of this new formulation was tested in a real world environment, by folks who handle this feed everyday, and not just by a well meaning group of nutritionists."

While not on this product there has been lots of testing of the basic contents as they relate to proteins , carbohydrates and lipids in pond fish. We had a presentation at the last conf. on that.

I have done a good deal of checking on the topic (and gave the presentation) for the same reasons you are asking. I can tell you that I have no concern with these changes as to feeding my fish.

Carbs (the source of your question) are not beneficial to most pond predator fishes (LMB ,BG , etc) . From a nutrition point of view it is the protein and lipid sources that are key and the fish meal source is key. HSB can use carbs and the data shows that they can use even low quality sources. HSB can get obese in tanks fed the same diets as the other predators because they can also use the carbs.

See this http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=266697&page=2

Thanks Ewest, the reassurance is most appreciated. I do hope the concern, as well as the diligence I expressed in looking for answers to these questions has not been a source of aggravation to anyone.

Glad you brought up this matter as we all needed an answer as to what was going on. Most of us had the same questions.

I wanted to revisit this issue just to let everyone know that I heard back from Ms. Fischer at Purina. She affirmed what Bob has stated, that the additional corn was added to meet the required energy content of the feed, and that production is expected to move back to Richmond, whereupon the feed will revert back to the older, more familiar formulation.

I think it is important to note that Ms. Fischer tried a few times to call me with this information, but as it was apparently after my shop office hours, she responded via email.

I greatly appreciate her efforts in this matter.