Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose 1 acre, HSB/SMB - With a geothermal?

Thinking about all the different stocking options i can go with when i eventually get my .75-1 acre pond makes me wonder about HSB. My dad and i spend about 30 days a year in the dead of winter fishing for them and i think it would be cool to have them in a pond.

The goal at the moment is as close to 1 acre as i can, and hopefully 15 feet deep for as much of the depth as i can.

Uses for the pond will be swimming and fishing. I really want a active bluegill fishery for the ease of the catch, but want to have that excitement of catching bigger fish.

Is a HSB in a pond that size sustainable? How good of a fishery can that small of a pond become?

What forage fish to stock and will they sustain themselves as the HSB get bigger?

I can aerate

I can feed although i dont neccessarily want to.

I can wait as long as i need to in order to establish forage fish. Years if neccessary.

I do not have the pond yet.

I should also add that this pond will be a part of a geothermal system for an approx 1800 square foot house.

Do some research here about geothermal systems and loops in the pond. There has been several discussions / topics here about that, but I have not followed them since I don't think it is a good idea to have the loops in a pond for fisheries. My loops are in the ground (6'-7') and my fish are in the pond. IMO bottom aeration interferes with geothermal efficiency esp in mid summer when at our latitude a well aerated pond will have bottom temps of 75-84F - depending on compressor run times. Deeper ground temps are around 50F whereas winter temps of the pond will be 39.8F.

HSB can be raised easily in a pond as small as 0.2 ac. Feeding pellets to HSB results the their fastest growth and biggest sizes when raised in ponds. They can be raised without feeding, its is just they will not excell as fast without pellet feeding. BG as main forage for HSB is not the best choice. Often other fish shuch as LMB or CC have to be included to get good population control of the BG. HSB & LMB work well together. Consider GSH as an open water dwelling forage species with HSB. There are ponds near me with YP and HSB that seem to 'work' pretty good.

A few links to forum discussions: Others here may help provide other links.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=245030
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=102683
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=95204

Would an open loop change anything with this? or if i decided to go w/ SMB instead?

I have HSB in my 1 acre pond and they seem to be doing fine. I bought 30 of them a few months ago. They are feed trained though. I also have BG and RES for them to eat if they can as they get bigger, but they sure like that AM5and600! I have not caught one lately but my water is so warm I think thats a good thing. I know they don't do to well in warm water if they are caught. Specailly if they are 3 lbs or bigger. So right now I am just trying to avoid them till it cools down some!

What about RES, HBG (in moderation), SMB, and HSB along with a variety of forage fish that would be sustainable. I could take as long to implement the plan as needed to ensure lots of forage.

I could also forgo areating as its the main reason for the pond. or possibly just aerate 24/7 in the spring and the fall when the water isnt needed for the geothermal as much. that could help keep the water clear and organics down.

At the moment this looks like the pond might be put into a VERY heavily wooded area with lots of 80ft mature hardwoods. Does that bring anything else into consideration?

If i make it an open loop system it probably wont raise the temps as much in the summer and if anything might keep the temp of the pond cooler, allowing me to aerate year round. and preventing lots of fluctuation of water levels.

Well I am no expert but here is what I see wrong with this. RES and HBG do not spawn enough to help sustain your forage base for SMB and HSB. You can put tons of forage in there if you want to but if you have enough SMB and HSB that forage won't last to long I don't think. That's why Bob Lusk always preaches that the BG are the backbone of the food chain, cause they spawn 5 or 6 times in the summer and have LOTS of little guys!! Your plan I don't think would last more than 2 years before you start running out of forage again depending how many SMB and HSB you have of course. And don't forget both larger RES and HBG will eat minnows also.

As far as the wooded area where the pond will be I can tell you a couple of things. That's is where my pond is now surrouned by trees.

Here are some pros and cons of that.

Pros,
Shade, not as windy and looks pretty in the fall that's about it.

Cons,
Trees drink a LOT of your water! All their leaves fall into your pond and turn into muck. If your starting from scratch you don't want any trees near your levee area!! This will just create issues later on down the road with roots and all.
Not sure if you have this problem but Blue Heron's like to land in trees and then drop down on the shore and then go fishing. So less trees right on your shore the better when it comes to that too.

I am not sure about your loop system I do not know anything about that. Hey good luck and keep us posted as to what you do. Show us some pics eventually.

IMO the main problem is not the fish combination for this pond, but pond temps due to summer bottom water temps due to aeration and the default winter water temeratures. How much are you saving by putting the loops in the pond vs ground? Personally I wouldn't want that snarled tube mass in the pond to 'attract' fish lures. If tubes ever leak you got bigger trouble than if they were in the ground.
According to Cecil Baird1 he would not use the open loop system again.

One option as I see it is to dig a wide (8'-12'wide) trench down to 20-24ft in the pond's belly and put your loops there and then just aerate the top 13-16ft by placing the diffuser at the depth where you want water mixing down to. To do this by begin aerating each year after the pond has stratified in mid-late May or June. Then the recirculated warmer surface will only mix down to the depth of the diffusers due to the thermal properties and differences in the density of water. Below the mixing depth it will be cold (55f-65F) and anoxic with lots of acidic hydrogen sulfide which will slowly corrode metal. Strong full pond aeration 24/7 can easily bring bottom water temperatures within 1-2F of mid-summer surface temps which can be 85F-90F.

RES-HBG-HSB-SMB can work but IMO the competion of the HSB will not allow the SMB to reach their potential of top end of 4-5 lbs. Two to 3 lbs would be likely their top size after 5-8yrs without pellet feeding. Pellet fed smallies as with HSB grow fast and big.

Be advised that HBG are biters of swimmers using floaty things. I've got grandparents complaining that the larger HBG will draw blood from grandkids when nipples and moles are bit. This is probaly not a problem with regular active swimmers- teenagers -just with smallest kids sitting and playing in the beach. The green sunfish contributes to the aggressive behavior attitude of the HBG.

RC1 has good points about the trees near the pond. A pond in a woods is aestetically pleasing but it is usually a big management problem. Look at the amount of leaves under the trees in the woods in late fall then think of what it will be like with all those leaves in the pond plus those blown in leaves from other parts of the woods. This can amount to at a minimum of 1 ft of leaf accumulation per year on the bottom of down wind areas of the pond. Some have told me they get 2 ft of leaves each year in their pond. Yikes!!! When people come to me and complain about the bad problems they are having with their pond in a woods,, I tell them and you, that a pond in a wooded area is your worst nightmare. All those leaves composted in a garden will make plants grow great and in a pond they provide lots of organics and nutrients to make huge amounts of all sorts of extra unnecessary vegetation grow that consist of submerged plants, filamentous algae, and later in life bluegreen algae (Cyanobacteria blooms) and duckweed -water meal. Reseach here about the complaints pond owners have about duckweed. How long this degredation process takes depends on the rate of leaf accumulation. Annual nutrient accumulation is what ages ponds - the more they get the faster they age - eutrophication

ok, so lets look at a geothermal burried in a trench (possibly covered) below the deepest part of the pond.

Aerated at a depth a 5 feet or so above the geothermal depth.

I would stock all of the sustainable forage fish possible.

BG, RES, SMB, Crayfish. and possibly a VERY small amount of HSB and CC.

the CC would just be there in case i wanted to sink a worm and drink a beer. If i have NO bottom feeders it would be pointless, but having a few in there would at least give me some hope. Same thing w/ the HSB, and they would be able to eat some of the larger BG keeping that population in check a bit better.

Can i stock any shad? or any other minnow that will be sustainable for the SMB?

I could feed if its important and will not cost to much, nor affect water clarity.

1. Don't bury the geothermal in the bottom of the pond. Lay it on top the sediment. Covering the coiled pipe with dirt will result in very poor heat transfer due to the closeness of the coils in the dirt. Dirt is not a good transfer of heat. Pond loops and sediment loop fields are built-laid differently due to them being in different mediums - water vs dirt and heat behaves differently in each.
2. IF you put them in dirt trenches bury them at least 6-7ft deep 12" to 2ft apart for supply and return lines. My geo guy just told be that those buried shallow 2-4 ft in this hot dry weather have return fluid coming back at 80F and too warm for good air conditioning. He was glad he put mine in deep and measured return fluid coming back in the 60's.

3. Lots of forage is important to growing fish. It is just not about numbers but forage type should be matched to the predator so each complement each other in behavior, reproduction, biomass, recruitment and habitat type. Initial high numbers of proper forage is usually not the problem. Most have trouble maintaining dense forage sfter the fish have reproduced for several years - usually at pond post stocking age of 4-6. The predators usually over eat the food source for various reasons. Situation problems are usually for different reasone.

4. CC are okay but I don't like them unless one plans on eating them. IMO each one takes the place (in foods eaten and pond biomass) of one predator. I would rather have a SMB over a CC ANY day. CC easily become food hogs esp when 26"-32" long. My 32" CC were sly nuisances. IF you have CC I suggest that you never catch and release them. Harvest each one caught. Members here are tagging them and finding that most of them can not be recaught once they are caught once or twice. They get hook smart FAST. If you want to "sink a worm & dring a beer" use chicken liver and catch HSB instead. More fun and more action. I hope your not one who thinks that CC clean the bottom and eat leaves and muck. Won't happen. IF they did everyone would use them and ponds would not be mucky with slop. All ponds get mucky esp those with lots of leaf inputs.

5. Don't count on HSB to eat larger BG, at least BG larger than around 4.5" for the 22"-27" HSB. HSB have small mouths compared to LMB thus HSB are gape limited and usually rely on smaller usually fusiform forage items such as shiners and shad. Something with biomass yet long and easier and quicker to swallow. Surviving as a fish predator it is mostly all about swallowing quickly so kleptoparasitism is minimized.

6. BG have proven here to be a problem of control for HSB and SMB. But you can try it and see what happens in your situation. Think about fusiform YP instead of BG. IMO it is better to use HBG with low reproductive potential compared to BG for HSB and or SMB.

7.Threadfin shad will not survive winters in your latitude. Gizzard shad will grow too big too fast and take up too much valuable fish biomass to be good forage for HSB and or SMB. I suggest GSH (golden shiners) and get them to at least 5"-6" so you have good large GSH broodstock before stocking predators.

8. Feeding can take various forms from heavy daily feedings to light feedings of 2-3 times a week. Essentually the more you feed the more fish and bigger fish that you grow. Proven many times here. Heavy daily feedings will increase the phytoplankton bloom due to increased nutrient inputs. Clear water with 4ft-8ft visibilities grows few fish pounds per acre with out daily feedings. Small scale daily feedings can range from 1 pint to 1 gallon per day. You are the manager you decide what is best for your situation.

We did a lot of research before we put in our geothermal system. We went with two 300-foot sealed wells.

Using the pond is not really advantageous for a number of reasons. One is that during the summer, your pond water is warm. In the winter your pond water is cold -- just the opposite of what you want. It may be better than a standard heat pump working with outside air temperatures, but you lose the efficiency of the earth's rather large heat sinking characteristics. Also, there apparently is a tendency for the pond elements to freeze up during winter, thus trying to float up to the top, and damaging them through stress.

We've had our system for a little less than a year. I'm impressed. Generally, our electric bill this time of year would be around $200-$250 per month. It is running about $65 per month. Our summer propane bill has been cut considerably also, as the geothermal system provides most of our hot water in the process. The propane usage was really cut during the winter heating season.

By the way, wells for geothermal are not anywhere near as expensive as water wells. The biggest difference is that no casing is needed. Our two 300 foot wells were drilled and plumbed within about six hours of the time the well drilling truck backed into the yard. They came back the next day and filled the holes with bentonite. I don't remember the cost, but it was under $2000 for the drilling.

Dwight has his geo coils in his pond and it's kept his house heated in very cold temps without the backup element kicking on.

I think the biggest thing is finding a geo installer/expert that knows what he's (or they) are doing.

My neighbor had a heat pump installed about 2 years ago, and for most of the first year he saw higher utility bills. Compressor problems and other issues that could be traced back to the installer and the person who spec'd. out the unit.

Catmandoo provides very good information about geothermal loops. Thanks for the great information. Do the research before installing geothermal loops. Some furnace guys may be biased as to their way of doing the install. There are options,, explore them before committing. Good homework can pay good dividends.

Same guidelines apply to building a pond. A pond that leaks can cost more to try and fix the leak than the original cost of the pond! And still the leak is not fixed. Get a good contractor that guarantees his work and get in writing as to how he defines a leaky pond so it is easy for the judge to make a desision.

I'm coming to this discussion a little late. Sorry. My wife and I did a lot of research on geothermal heat pumps when we purchased our house. We looked at all of the options and decided to go with the open system. We pull water out of the same well that we get water for the house from, and dump the water into our 2 acre pond. It took us 2 years to save up for the change over, but in the 8 years that we have run the system, we have more than paid for the cost of the system in electric bill savings. We have had nothing but good experiences with the system.

My folks have geo coils in the ground adjacent to their house. It's amazingly efficient.