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#295945 - 06/16/12 09:39 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
Rainman Offline
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Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 6976
Loc: St Louis, MO area
Jwwann, a pond won't "seal" on it's own. As the water flows in a leak, it takes soil with it and erodes a larger and larger path. A rock or something may eventually shift from soil loss and plug the leak temporarily, but will eventually make the eroded paths even larger.

Are you finding much soil in the wet areas behind the dam? Your "dirt guy" SHOULD do the repairs on his dime to save his Rep. Unfortunately in Missouri, many dirt guys have so much work they don't care if a few get screwed.
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#296489 - 06/21/12 10:29 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
If I dump a pallet(1 ton) of bentonite in leak area will it still be good for sealing if it fails. I gotta get this leak fixed. Don't want my well to burn up or go dry. How is the bentonite after you put in water and let dry. Will it recompact good? Just curious.
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If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
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RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#296494 - 06/21/12 11:21 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
Ryan Freeze Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
All ponds/dams leak but they should not get worse in the weeks/months following construction.

Excavation is basically bid on how much material will be moved. If more material needs to be moved, it makes sense that there would be an "extra" charge, such in the case of a core. I think this is merely the contractor justifying costs to the customer. No contractor knows exactly what they will encounter before they start digging. Test holes can give you a good idea but there are always surprises. Most excavators will give you an estimate as opposed to a guaranteed price. The estimate is usually loosely based on cost per cubic yard and their estimated time. If you want a guanteed lump sum price for a leak free pond...expect it to be double or triple that of an estimate.

Are there written specifications for the dam/pond? Did the excavating company build the pond in compliance with the specification? Was there any guarantee that the pond would be leak free or for workmanship?

Having clearly written plans, specifications, and a contract with a lump sum price and provisions with a pre-established per cubic yard unit prices for extra work outside of the plan is most fair for all parties involved.

It is also a good idea to have a capable quality assurance person without any vested interest in the project to give the owner assurance that the contractor is performing the work in accordance with the plan and specification and too look for potential problems that can be addressed during construction which will be less costly for both the owner and the contractor to correct during rather than after completion.
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#296524 - 06/21/12 05:06 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
liquidsquid Offline


Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1935
Loc: East Bloomfield, NY USA
I always wondered what the possibility of creating a new core behind the dam, and fill with good material from somewhere nearby to make a short dam with a pipe or breach all set for draining. Then breach the old dam, let the water out, then move the old dam plus new clay/bentonite into the new dam location. It would then prevent machinery from spending too much time in the muddy bowl of the pond. It would have the additional benefit if enlarging the pond which we all hate.
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#296566 - 06/22/12 08:13 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
Ryan Freeze Offline
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Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
May be easier to grout it if the leak is small.

http://www.grouters.org/rockgrout/Dams%20Usage.htm
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#296645 - 06/22/12 08:39 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
Just got done dumping a hole pallet of sodium bentonite around dam 10 foot past base. Waiting game now. Another $468 gone. It swelled up around 8" deep. Only time will tell.
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#296650 - 06/22/12 09:05 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
ymurf Offline
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Registered: 06/01/09
Posts: 24
Loc: Missouri
Im in Mo also.And I had a 1 acre pond dug 4 years ago.Had seepage at toe of damn and I can tell you from experience they do not seal themselves. Tried everything.Even bentonite.Now with the drought we are having this summer I may lose everything.Chalk it up to a $5000 mistake.

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#296653 - 06/22/12 09:18 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
I hope not.
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#297061 - 06/25/12 09:02 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
The leak has slowed for now. Let's see what happens?
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#297208 - 06/26/12 09:43 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: ymurf]
liquidsquid Offline


Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1935
Loc: East Bloomfield, NY USA
ymurf,may be a great opportunity to fix the pond if it dries up! You can re-work the soils in the entire basin with a sheeps-foot compactor making a clay liner.
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#297623 - 06/30/12 12:45 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
Pondbuilder217 Offline


Registered: 06/30/12
Posts: 1
Loc: Central Illinois
I am a contractor in Central IL. I specialize in ponds and no pond seepage is normal. I also think the contractor you have is on the wrong page beacuse I have never and will never charge extra to put a core in. I put a core in every pond that I build beacuse without one, they ALL leak. It is always included in the price. When the contractor says give it time to "seal" that is supposed to mean so the water doesn't seep into the ground. Eventually the ground will stop soaking up the water and your water level will rise. It doesn't mean it will stop leaking past the levee. It could take up to 2 years for your pond to maintain the highest level. But your levee will never seal. You have a problem and it needs fixed. Also, keep in mind that on hot summer days it is normal to lose an inch a day to evaporation.

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#298168 - 07/05/12 05:13 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
The pond quit leaking for now.


Edited by Jwwann (07/05/12 12:44 PM)
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#301766 - 08/03/12 07:15 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
Filled pond up past bentonite and have 3 wet spots on back of dam. Need to call dirt guy and let him know. I would like to wait till fall and my catfish are big enough to eat. I saw my first school of FHM today about inch long. I hate to drain. Should I wait till fall or get him here now. I can always put fish in my uncles pond. I'm stressed.
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#301809 - 08/04/12 12:06 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24029
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
How many CC?
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#301813 - 08/04/12 04:44 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
50
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If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
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RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#301860 - 08/04/12 02:05 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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If you wanted to keep the CC and restock them in your pond, you could build a cage, and hold them in your uncles pond in the cage until you pond is done, then return them to your pond.

You'd just have to feed them in the cage.
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#301913 - 08/04/12 07:39 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
Alright just taked my dirt guy and he wants to haul in clean rock free clay. 10'loads for $1000 or just try to repack clay I got for free. Got 2" inch stream running out back of pond. He wants to put 18 inch of clay on bottom of pond then heal the rest around inside of damn without cutting into it too much. Does this sound like good idea. He said he thinks my clay had too much clay gravel in it. Should I go ahead and have him cut out whole core and start from scratch? Will having thick layer around the inside of damn really stop leaks. He said he has a source of rock free red yellow clay.
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#301914 - 08/04/12 07:46 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
sprkplug Offline
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Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 6945
Loc: Freedom, Indiana
That 2" stream scares me.... I'm sending positive thoughts your way to try and ensure you don't wake up tomorrow to a bigger stream.
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"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.

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#301932 - 08/04/12 10:31 PM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24029
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
As long as the equipment will be there and the ground tore up anyway, I'd re-do the core too. I prefer to go the belt and suspenders route rather than have to re-do it again later.

If it was my pond, I'd feel better if there was an 18" thick to 24" thick clay liner all over the pond. from bottom to above the high water line. Plus making sure the dam core is good and tied into good soil at the ends of the dam.

If only the bottom of the pond is lined, what is stopping the water from escaping above where the bottom clay liner stops?
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#301940 - 08/05/12 01:53 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
He said he would put clay around the inside of bowl. I'm thinking the start from scratch method too. Is this red yellow clay he talks about worth a $100 a dump truck load. I've never even heard of it. This will put my pond over $6000 for under half acre.
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#301943 - 08/05/12 04:54 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
If I just have him repack the clay I got in core now with a sheepsfoot roller do you think it would stop leak or should I go the safe route and pay extra$$$ now to play it safe. Im not sure how much it cost to rent small roller. This has been a nightmare and I need it fixed.
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#301950 - 08/05/12 08:39 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
spinnerbait Offline
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Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 390
Loc: NC
I'm with esshup. I'd back up and start over. A 2 inch stream will get bigger, and eventually you will have to redo the core anyway. My builder did my core three terex pans wide, and it hasn't had a leak yet in the 2 years of being built.
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#301958 - 08/05/12 09:36 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: spinnerbait]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24029
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Jwwann:

I know the $ is adding up, but if he just does the core, and the pond still leaks, what will it cost then?

I'm not inferring that good pond builders won't have problems too, but your pond problems are why we say that there are many dirt movers out there, and anybody can dig a pond, but only the true pond builders can dig a hole that will hold water.

If he says the clay will seal the pond, and he will come back on his dime if it leaks, then I'd say it's worth it.

I for durn sure would have the clay placed all the way up the sides of the "bowl" so that it ends above the emergency spillway elevation.

Here's why I say it that way:

Go to your kitchen. You probably have a double sink. Take a bowl that is slightly shorter than the divider between both sink halves. Place it in the sink. The bowl is the "bowl" of the pond. The divider between the sinks is the dam and emergency spillway. If he just covers the "bowl" of the pond up to the normal high water level, then it'd be the same as you trying to fill up the sink with the bowl in it. You'll never get it to the emergency overflow because once the bowl is full it'll leak out the drain.
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#301963 - 08/05/12 09:58 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: John Wann]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
So you think let him put the clay around bowl without tearing into core and see what happens? Then if it starts leaking make sure he will come back on his dime to fix. I wish would of found this forum sooner. Prob could of got good recommendation on pond builder. Water under the bridge now.
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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#301971 - 08/05/12 10:51 AM Re: New pond seepage. Is this normal? [Re: spinnerbait]
John Wann Offline
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Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 1674
Loc: Phelps county, Missouri
Ok I think I see what your saying. I'm at work trying to read this from my iPhone. So essup and spinnerbait. You guys are saying have him repack core then put clay liner around inside bowl or just let him try his method of lining bowl with his clay?
_________________________
If you ain't gonna fart, why eat the beans?
.
RES,HBG,YP,HSB,SMB,CC,and FHM. .seasonal trout.

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