About ten years ago I designed our .35 acre/500,000 gal pond according to best practices. Treated turbidity with gypsum and achieved 8-10" visibility; first introduced perch, channels, minnows then 10 LMB and all was good for many years--water was translucent green--great vertical food chain--we had 1" freshwater shrimp. Recently a neighbor moved in next door; new construction sent torrents of sediment reducing visibility to near zero then they established a large pile of horse manure on our property line that drains straight into the pond. Recent testing shows e coli above state limits for human contact. Any suggestions for pathogen remediation that will not kill what fish are left? Pumping out and refilling is not an option since many in our area have wells at our depth going dry. Chlorine will kill what little algae is left to oxygenate but will not impact parasites. Thanks!
Yes, lots can be done. I wouldn't use any chlorine. I probably wouldn't suggest any chemicals.
I faced some similar issues a number of years ago at our place. I've been working with it for a few years at a friend's place, which is a horse rescue operation with varying amounts of manure close to the ponds. We aren't done at the friend's farm, but we are nearly there. We did a lot of simple earth moving, split the pond into three sections, and brought more clean water into the ponds. The small pond is to capture the nutrients with lots of plants and aeration. The second pond is the main pond, with huge bass, lots of good size bluegill, and a variety of other fish. The lowest pond is a nursery or grow-out pond, which is currently growing redear sunfish to eventually control parasite grubs in the main pond.
It will take some remediation on your part, but you can build some beautiful and productive ponds. The manure is both good and bad. Over a number of years, I've done a lot of digging to put in small settlement ponds (smaller than 10-ft diameter, and less than 2-ft deep). I've done a lot of grass seeding, and put in a lot of plants -- including horse radish that is finally becoming intentionally invasive. If you've got sun, watercress does real well in wet areas. We've put in a lot of other plants and organic materials to absorb nutrients. Basically, we've built our own wetlands that absorb nutrients.
Keep posting questions. Photos are also very welcome.
Thanks Ken; here are some photos. Subject manure pile is located in the corner of the neighbor's lot where all the water drains to, then down a swale and into our pond. Redesigning the pond into a waste water treatment plant for my neighbor's manure doesn't set too well with me. Any other ideas would be appreciated as I'm at a loss particularly if the manure pile stays in place. Thanks, Michael
Have you talked to him about the the E-coli issue? Also I'm not sure but I think manure run off into waterways has some regulations?? Could be wrong there.. I'd talk to him first if he's not willing to help contact higher ups about regulations..
I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..
If I was attacking this problem this is what I would try,(Water Hyacinth) especially since you live in hot Texas. They might take over your pond but that is what I would be after right now. ==================================================================== The most popular floater is the Water Hyacinth (Eichhornia crassipes). This rapidly multiplying plant develops a strong trailing root system which removes excess nutrients and pollutants from the pond. Due to their natural filtering ability, they are commonly used for water purification at treatment plants in the southern states. Occasionally hyacinths will develop a lovely orchid-like flower. ====================================================================== I also like the idea of water cress. I once went to the grocery and bought a bunch, then just push them into the edge of the pond with my fingers and they grew. And perhaps some submerged plants to help aerate the water.
I would talk to the neighbor first. Ask/tell him to dump that crap elsewhere. Then talk to County Health officials. Then the EPA. Stephenville Texas once had a lot of chicken farms. Their droppings was contaminating the local waters. Now there are no chicken farms there.
Then I would rent a dozer and block off the contaminants from my land.
Last edited by Dave Davidson1; 07/07/1207:15 AM.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
Thanks all for the comments. Early on I spoke with him and offered to purchase the materials and help build a suitable structure to contain the manure and to prevent water ingress/outgress (according to manure BMPs) and all he said was "I don't see that there is a problem" and walked off. I have contacted the state and county and they came out but concluded that they don't have any jurisdiction on private lands/waters and all it did was tick him off more when he heard about the complaint. I've spoken to a law firm (specializing in environmental) who tells me that there are civil violations that are a basis for suit, but man---we are talking a lot of money. And if I don't do anything the lawyers tell me that I have basically granted them the right to continue unchallenged in the future. Bluegill, I did have the lawyers send him a letter in which the e coli issue was specifically mentioned and the response from his lawyers was "the state and county were out and didn't see any violations so tough". I'm at my wit's end; we called our pond the crown jewel of our property and had many good times there but now we can't stand to look at it. Dave, the thought of building a berm has passed through my mind but the lawyers tell me that blocking drainage and causing back up on their property would be the basis of a suit against us. They also tell me that if I run a bypass and send it downstream to our next neighbor's pond they could sue us for contaminating their pond. I feel as though I am trapped in a nightmare. Michael
Michael, if you can't do anything to the neighbor about having your pond contaminated by their manure running into your pond, how can your neighbor do that to you if you make a bypass trench?
I think that backing up the water into your neighbor's property might get you in court to plead you case. I am guessing the worst that could happen would you being required to remove the blockage. However before you do this, you would be wise to ask IN WRITING for your neighbor to stop polluting you pond and creating as health hazard for you and you family. Also, IN WRITING, ask for help from the state department of environmental management and from the health department clearly stating how your neighbor's actions are impacting your property and risking your health. This documentation will be critical in court. If you are not comfortable representing yourself in court, bring someone that you trust or a lawer. I have never sued anyone, but I have been sued. They had a lawer and I represented myself. I was right and I won. But I am proficient at bringing evidence to bear on an issue.
essup,the last thing the state told us was "get a lawyer" so we did and we do have the basis for a civil suit. RAH, we did send the demand letter asking them to stop and all they said was "the state and county have been out here and found nothing" where in reality the state and county said that they had no jurisdiction on private lands/waters for this matter. Bottom line: We are up to $6,000 in fees for just sending a demand letter. The law firm can't even give an estimate for going to court (how can they?) and I have a son starting college in the fall. The thought did occur to me to build a berm--which would be cheaper than the demand letter!--and which would probably bring us into court as a defendant and still having to hire an attorney. The problem is so obvious, the solution so simple. I'm trying to make sure that I've covered every possible solution and knew you guys were the experts; I really appreciate your input. As a final comment, I have really enjoyed learning to farm with water--I think that I'll hang out here more often! Thanks a million, Michael
You know now that I think of it.. Back before I built my new house we rented a house with a sewer lateral system.. Long story short the sewer system messed up overflowed and ran down a hill off our property to the neighbors lake contaminating it.. He sued the landlord went to court and won the landlord had to pay clean up and all kinds of stuff nothing was ever cleaned up but he was paid for it.. So I know there's something you have to be able todo.. If you have a test showing E-coli and obvious changes in water quality with pictures documenting it then I'd go after the scumbag.. Today he has horse crap running into your pond tomorrow he has sewer running into your water.. Don't roll over for this guy.. My old neighbor (same one that sued us) had horses I hated them he kept them in a 100x100 cage right next to my yard instead of his 40 acre pasture.. So we built a 6' tall privacy fence 6' off the property line wnough space to grow buttloads of ugly weeds and dump all my trimmings and scraps.. OH THAT WAS SWEET REVENGE HE HATED IT AND I LOVED DUMPING IT WHEN HE WAS FEEDING HIS HORSE... I'd just wave and smile..
I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..
If you definately decide to sue, be sure to let him know so that he has a chance to resove the issue without cost to you and him. If it were me, I would get my documantation together and build the berm. You can always file a countersuit if he sues.
I have a couple of stories but I will only cite one and try to keep it short. Randolph county, IN. is mostly agriculture. A farmer next to me was spreading pig manure into his fields with a high pressure pump that made the spray look like an oil well gusher and stunk the whole area up. I complained. Another farmer took offence and saw a few illegal thistle weeds growing on my small farm (every farm in the county has them) and set in motion this chain of events. I received a notice from the county that a private mower would come in on a certain date and mow my 5 1/2 acre pond area and this could not be stopped except by the complainer. I had thousands of small trees planted in this area at no small expense. I searched for a law to stop this, national, state and local but couldn't find anything. A couple of times I went to the agricultural extension agency and they said why didn't you plant the trees in rows and they would be easy to take care of. I didn't want it looking like corn rows. One day I went in and another agent was there filling in and I told him my story and he said there was a law that said that small trees had to be allowed to grow and not bothered. Bingo! I went to the courthouse and ask for the name of the complainer and they didn't want to give it to me. I said if my trees are cut down I have to have a name to file suit against. Then I went to the farmer that complained and told him I was filing suit the day the trees were cut down. He backed down and stopped the action.
The area we live in has 5-10-20 acre home sites. The one thing that I've learned is when people move out here they think that they can do anything they want. One guy upwind cleared his 25 acre tract and burned huge piles of downed trees; the smoke was so thick that we couldn't see our property line so the first burn day we all stayed indoors. And the second. And the third. By that time I had things I needed to do; I don't mind a minor sacrifice but this was becoming ridiculous, so several of us complained and he developed a more manageable burn plan. Bottom line, IMHO: What you do on your property is your business, but when it comes onto my property it's my business. RAH, my first offer was to pay for the materials and help provide the labor---that is as low cost/no cost as it gets, and he refused. "What we have here is failure to communicate----some men, you just can't reach."
I understand that you tried to be freindly, but things may change when your neighbor starts to consider that he may need to hire a lawer to defend himself in court ($$$). It is also useful in court to show that a lawsuit was not your first choice of action. I am a little mistified that your state environmental agency and health department is so unconcerned. I too do not bother myself with what neighbors do until it overflows onto my place. My wife and I worked hard for our land, and we will not let others degrade it.
I have plenty to show that a lawsuit was not my first choice; this is why I made the offer, and why I called the state and county. I practically pleaded with them to come out and try to find some basis upon which they could write the guy a citation, he'd fix it, the end. I was encouraged when the state field inspector came out, saw the problem and said that he was going to have someone from the state manure management dept. come out and discuss manure BMPs. But when he got back into his office his supervisor determined they had no jurisdiction and the whole thing was dropped. I think a lot of it has to do with very tight state budgets, not enough personnel, too many demands, etc. It was at about this point where I asked them "so I am going to have to hire a lawyer to enforce state laws?" and they replied "yes".
I am concluding that no practical remediation is possible; the only recourse is a court order having them remove the pile, institute BMPs, and continual monitoring of the pond until the health risk abates. According to the "experts" this could be some time. In the meanwhile, with the pond in such a turbid condition I am concerned about available TDO and the health hazards involved with aeration; namely hooking my 3" 270 gpm pump up and shooting a spray of highly contaminated water high into the air where the aerosol can be picked up by the wind and breathed in by anyone nearby.
What about trying to tackle this from another angle? As large manure piles are prone to spontaneous combustion (especially in hot weather), any chance the fire department might be of help in getting this pile removed/relocated? 'Just trying to think outside of the box....
Another thought. If the water was tested surely e-coli would show up in it. A big health risk. The state might have to move on that kind of contamination. you might Google Texas and e-coli and see if any kind of precedents have taken place. When e-coli gets into the food chain the whole nations goes crazy trying to locate where it came from. .
John, we did---five samples. If I recall the max e coli level for wading/swimming is somewhere around 380; the pond clocked in at around 1200. The sample taken directly off the pile was 20,100. Spinner----that is brilliant; wished I'd thought of it myself. Only problem is we live too close to the big city. It would help if we lived in my wife's hometown, about 100 miles SW of here, where one day I read the lead story about some college students calling in a bogus order for 5 pies from the local Pizza Hut.
Have you checked for water contamination downstream from your pond? perhaps if you had other neighbors aware and concerned with what is happening to the ecology in your area there could be more action taken. It sounds like you have taken the proper steps to try and first ask the neighbor and seek agency help when that didn't work, but I would probably have to swallow my pride a bit and try and to set a face to face meeting with the neighbor and see if you can't successfully plead your case while also nicely insinuating that you have received clear indication from agencies that he is in violation and that you don't want to BUT WILL sue him resulting in high costs if you two can't reach agreement. If he is a horses ass that you already know is not going to respond to that approach, I would write a blog, or have someone you know write about the issue and distribute it to as many area newspapers as you can to see if someone will publish it. Area ecology groups may also want to take up your cause and get publicity to the issue. When your neighbor starts getting funny looks at the grocery store from the people in your area he probably will fix the error of his ways.
"Our Life is frittered away by detail. Simplify, Simplify" -Henry David Thoreau -
Cap, we're past that and my pride is not an issue; he is certified HA. As to the water contamination downstream from our pond, I would assume that it will be same as from our pond, which is.......very, very high. From the same county agency that "found no violations" I have a statement that based on the e coli report we should not engage in any activities such as "swimming, wading, fishing, etc." What he doesn't get is that because the state and county told him that he can store his manure wherever he wants, however he wants they did not give him permission to contaminate my pond. This is a major error on his behalf, but it has encouraged him to remain so resolute in his conviction that apparently now only a judge/jury can change it.
I don't know about the blog thing but I investigated and found that I can erect a large billboard on our property line, facing his property, that can say "WARNING--FECAL COLIFORM HEALTH HAZARD" for his and his guests visual enjoyment and discussion.
Well honestly it comes down to how much hell do you wanna raise. if it was my pond trust me the world would stop spinning for awhile and the manure would be moved.. So it's up too you to do something because it sounds like the county ain't gonna do $hit... Maybe other dept will..
I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..
It looks like the health department would stop this contamination of your property. In some of these states, individual rights comes before safety. Another thought is to put out a garden where the most water seepage is, but don't eat the damn stuff. Then have the food checked for e-coli. If it is not safe then maybe some department in TX would take action.
[/quote] Spinner----that is brilliant; wished I'd thought of it myself. Only problem is we live too close to the big city. It would help if we lived in my wife's hometown, about 100 miles SW of here, where one day I read the lead story about some college students calling in a bogus order for 5 pies from the local Pizza Hut. [/quote]
Even in a big city you have TV reporters wanting a story. This guy works somewhere, and folks know him. Media coverage is the last thing he wants and guv'ment folks don't like to be perceived as not doing there job in public view. Do you guys have a city/county manager? Squeeky wheel gets the grease! Tell neighbors downstream, they probably have children, and dogs who go to this creek. The dog gets in the creek, and comes back home to be rubbed by owners, and prob. plays with children. Show them the water and show them the test. Maybe some e coli facts. Video it, and put it on Youtube with his name. Something else-horses are easily scared by big booms, and noises. Nothing like trying to brush the horse down, and it getting spooked. Target shooting with a 30-06 is very loud.
Last edited by spinnerbait; 07/11/1205:38 AM.
"I have not failed, I have only found 10,000 ways that won't work" Thomas Edison
We were ground zero for about 20" of rain over a few days a couple of weeks ago. The pond was inundated; I think we had a complete turnover of water. Meanwhile, our neighbor has greatly reduced (but not eliminated) his manure pile and as importantly configured it so that it does not create a dam through which all his run off must filter through. Last Tuesday I ordered a new e coli test; results should be in shortly. Since we still have no acknowledgement from him that there is a problem based on the results I will file suit either in district court or local JP court; JP court will obviously be cheaper but I can't file for recovery of my legal fees which are stacking up. District court will be serious kaching but I can file to recover those fees. BTW; visibility is back to 10-12" which is encouraging but still no signs of my bass or perch; first step to rebuilding is of course to stabilize the situation. The whole thing is ridiculous; we should have resolved it talking over the fence. Thanks for asking.
Wow, I hope I never run into those kinds of problems, but then again I would have tried solving the problem this way: "Can I have that manure dumped into my gardens for fertilizer?" And set up some gardens where it doesn't get into your ponds. Apart from weed seeds, that stuff is golden.
Recent e coli test results: 5 samples taken: 248, 225, 206,166,461 mpn/100 ml geometric mean = 245
Results:
Almost twice above the state of Texas for primary contact recreation level for swimming, wading maximum of 126 mpn and no single sample above 399.
It is important to note that e coli is considered the indicator pathogen for a host of nasties such as giarda and cryptosporidium that do not respond to either chlorination or antibiotics.
Livestock manure is a biohazard; hundreds get sick every year from accidental leeching into fields of lettuce, strawberries, cantaloupe, etc. It should, IMHO, never be used as fertilizer unless it has first been properly composted. "Properly composted" is the operative phrase; this includes knowledge of how to properly handle, store, compost and distribute. Rule of thumb is the pile is driven twice to at least 130 F; even then you keep the pile away from creeks, streams, ponds, etc. because you can never kill all the nasties. One of the manure BMPs that I read had the statement "simply storing manure in piles IS NOT composting!" which says it all.
I hope you prevail. Gotta love the USA where you have to pay a lawyer through the nose to even have a chance to prevail. $6000.00 for just a letter? How do they sleep at night? I'm almost as mad at a lawyer for charging so much as I am at your neighbor.
If you don't mind I'd like to share a story with you of a situation that happened in the next county that could have been resolved if someone had been doing their job.
A retired gentleman that moved in from another county was being harassed by his much younger neighbor. The younger neighbor did everything from stealing his firewood to verbally bullying him. The local cops thought it was funny and didn't do anything. One day the elderly gentleman had had enough and shot and killed the guy.
Upon his sentence to prison where his background was reported in the media, the local cops were flabbergasted to find the elderly gentleman was a decorated law enforcement officer in the second largest city in the state. If only someone had been doing their job...
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 08/04/1204:24 PM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
Still a lot of money to a poor slob like me. I can write a good letter but sure as heck wouldn't charge $6000.00 to do it.
I got a couple people fired after I sent a letter to the oil company corp they worked for. No sympathy as they very poorly represented their workplace and were way out of line. Lets just say they made fun of what I do for a living at the counter.
I also fired a letter to a chemical company regional and national headquarters after their local supplier refused to sell me fertilizer and told me I was crazy for trying to fertilize a pond. They made him apologize.
Last edited by Cecil Baird1; 08/04/1204:36 PM.
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.
Howdy neighor. Just now noticed your post - and feel badly for your plight. Here's a suggestion for your dilemma.... Check out the hyperlink below; study the statues (due diligence) - then contact Joe Ballard (TCEQ~CAFO Div/Stephenville, TX), describe your scenario & request his input/assistance. His email address is: joe.ballard@tceq.texas.gov (I'm hesitant to post his ph#) SMALL CAFO (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operation) Any AFO may be designated a small CAFO by the executive director because it is a significant contributor of pollutants into or adjacent to water in the state. Any AFO that is designated a small CAFO must obtain written authorization from the TCEQ. If you do not qualify for the general permit, then you must obtain an individual permit.
Thanks all for the comments. Early on I spoke with him and offered to purchase the materials and help build a suitable structure to contain the manure and to prevent water ingress/outgress (according to manure BMPs) and all he said was "I don't see that there is a problem" and walked off. I have contacted the state and county and they came out but concluded that they don't have any jurisdiction on private lands/waters and all it did was tick him off more when he heard about the complaint. I've spoken to a law firm (specializing in environmental) who tells me that there are civil violations that are a basis for suit, but man---we are talking a lot of money. And if I don't do anything the lawyers tell me that I have basically granted them the right to continue unchallenged in the future. Bluegill, I did have the lawyers send him a letter in which the e coli issue was specifically mentioned and the response from his lawyers was "the state and county were out and didn't see any violations so tough". I'm at my wit's end; we called our pond the crown jewel of our property and had many good times there but now we can't stand to look at it. Dave, the thought of building a berm has passed through my mind but the lawyers tell me that blocking drainage and causing back up on their property would be the basis of a suit against us. They also tell me that if I run a bypass and send it downstream to our next neighbor's pond they could sue us for contaminating their pond. I feel as though I am trapped in a nightmare. Michael
If you were in Missouri, your neighbor is trespassing by piling the manure in an "unnatual" way....blocking water that backed up onto his property would be tresspass on your part....you could divert the runoff without backing it onto his side, but I imagine your crown jewel would dry up. Allowing the neighbor's continued tresspass without giving him permission to do so for whatever length of time is required in Tx, could conceivably be some form of adverse possession..(legal theft of property)...giving him written permission to let his pile of crap drain onto your property is the way to prevent adverse possession.
As for bringing in lawyers...the horse crap I wrote above was the result of my 5 year, $75,000 legal "education" that now has me owning 60 acres I cannot legally set foot on...
Hey John I just read your post about adding water hyacinth. I think it is illegal in Texas to add it to your pond? Eric what does adding lime to the water do? This is a really "crappy" neighbor what a jerk!
James lime is a cleansing agent assuming you don't have high alkalinity. In its hydrated form it is used in some septic systems. I think lime works just like in your pond - helps the natural chemical processes break down organic matter to useable nutrients. Hydrated lime used in septic clean up will kill many organisms by raising the pH to lethal limits.
I will think about your problem. I raised a bunch of Paddlefish when I was in Florida. Part of the experiment was introducing horse manure into the small pond to inspire the Daphnia to bloom, and it did but the Paddlefish ate them way to quickly. I soon gave up on them as a fish food source in Florida. However there was a sharp increase in the amount of Algae and Algae is a good food for Paddlefish. Considering you could easily have several hundred fish stocked for next to nothing and the value of the fish is about $10,000 each after 6 to 8 years because of the warmer water in Texas, then your neighbor might want his cut.
Another approach might be spray on some humic acids that will ionically charge the suspended particles and cause them to drop to the bottom, Plecostomus are wild in Texas and you could stock your pond with them to forage the bottom. Your picture shows an over flow pipe. You would need to screen the pipe for the Fish and Game people. They don't know anything about Plecos in Texas and think they are an invasive species.
I am not sure about Texas since I have not spent much time there. I remember seeing them in a canal next to the Zoo in San Antonio way back in 1969 when I was in basic training there. I have read about them being in Texas. Florida is full of them and I figured there must be 6 different types scattered throughout the south including Mexico. I did a study on them once because the Florida people thought they were invasive. I figured they came in water tanks on early ships but discovered that none of them were the same as South American types. Therefore I deduced that they were in fact wild in Florida and throughout the south. Just never classified as wild fish. Most will get between 1 ft and 2 ft long. They like to dig into banks and under rocks for a nest. We spent many a day hunting for Pleco balls on the Florida canals to hatch out on the fish farms $5.00 each ball.
Here are some links for Paddlefish if you are interested: http://www.paddlefishfarming.com/ Talk to Steve Mims, nice guy http://www.osagecatfisheries.com/ OK guys but tight http://aquacultureofkentucky.com/ Super nice old man not sure about fish There are a few more but you can probably find some through KY university and Mims. The only time you can get them is in May when they hatch. You will need a 15 ft pool to raise them in to 1 to 2 ft. They will eat flake food and pellets as long as it floats.
Not hardly, do you believe every thing anyone says? The fish will avoid any steel at all cost. It messes with their sensory units in their head. He must have been netting them or it was just a big fish story.
I saw them being caught on Ky. Afield. It dates back to the late sixties or early seventies. It was the first time I ever saw one. I believe very little what people tell me but you seem to be an exceptional person so I think you could research this on the internet and find out it is true.
Two ponds, 13 and 15 acres on the Mattaponi River.
Loren, I am pretty lame on puter as I started using one in 2011 while I was sitting around doing chemno. Check a video on internet by JMMAC 32, it looks like a spoonbill on a trotline to me. I found it by punching in spoonbill catfish on Ky. Afield. It could have been blind,sick or just a dumb country hick that didn't know what it was supposed to do. Well I am off to kill some crappie.
Two ponds, 13 and 15 acres on the Mattaponi River.
Loren, on the same page there is a fishing regulation for commerical fishermen for Nov. 2008. They have to pay 500$ to collect paddlefish and the method they can use( only method listed) was a trotline. The reason I don't believe hardly anything I am told is that I am a landlord. Some people have buried their parents several times and couldn't pay their rent. After they bury their father over three times in a year, I kick them out. They can bury their mother as many times as needed. On a brighter note, it was a cold,raw day but we did eke out 31 croppie. Take care and good luck to you.
Two ponds, 13 and 15 acres on the Mattaponi River.
Kenc: I can certainly understand what you are saying about the renters, I do maintenance on rental property from time to time. As for the Fish and Game, I have a problem with their stupidity and have come to expect such things. Sounds like you made a killing on the crappies. When you get a chance, please check out my new invention. I can stand to get some criticism since nobody around here has the slightest idea about what I am trying to do. [b]Bob deleted the website link for now...Loren, rather than put in the link, take a few minutes and explain what you are trying to invent, how it works and how it benefits pond owners.[/b] I think it is finally starting to settle into my 2 sons. [/i]
Loren, I hope you do well with your product. We have no electricity at our farm so we won't be able to try one out. I didn't understand your comment about F&G. They tax users to collect products. Spoonbill catfishing is a good moneymaker for fishermen in Ky. Lake. I have personally seen videos of people catching lots of them on trotlines on Ky. AField. You may need to work on your bedside manner a tad. You need to have a product that people need and if they don't have the "slightest idea" about the product they will not try it. I hope you do well with your business, as I have laid awake many times trying to have some idea on how to pay my bills. This is the curse of self-employment so I have empathy for anyone trying to make it on your own. Good luck.
Two ponds, 13 and 15 acres on the Mattaponi River.
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I can write a good letter but sure as heck wouldn't charge $6000.00 to do it. 
Lets just say they made fun of what I do for a living at the counter. 
[/i]
