Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Stocking new pond

Starting to fill my new 1.3 acre pond with fish, its in southern ontario canada, for forage i have only been able to find golden shinners , spotfin shiners and emerald shiners. Will these be suitable ? Are any of the dace minows any good ? The ponds main fish will be lmb.,is yp a good fish to add ? Or should i be looking to add something else ?

Thanks

Are the spotfin shiners really spot fins or spot tail shiners?. Spottails will have a dark spot back by the tail. Try some redbelly dace if you can find them. Bluntnnose minnows are usually common in many of the Ontario streams and lakes. Skip the LMB and use smallmouths or walleye with the yellow perch.

Sorry i meant spot tail, are they any good ? Why smb over lmb ? Seems like everyone goes with lmb. My pond is average 6ft deep with some deeper at 8ft and the center maybe 12ft but its maybe 15% of pond at that depth. Will smb do well in this pond ? I have been reading lots on this forum and have found tons of helpfull information.

Thanks. Luc

YP will do much better long term with SMB as predators compared to LMB. See all 5 articles in the link below. Best YP ponds IMO rarely use LMB. LMB will much more likely eliminate all your minnows and shiners, not as much with SMB unless smallies become abundant and there is minimal cover/habitat.

If your pond has lots of weeds them LMB would probably be a better choice. LMB have larger mouths and at 14"-18" long will consume more of the larger 7"-9" YP compared to SMB who will not be as big as fast as the LMB. LMB reproduce easily and well thus creatig lots of small bass who overeat the food base. Smallies will spawn less and focus on consuming the smaller 3"-5" YP that should be heavily thinned to get best growth of the YP. SMB will do well in your pond if you don't have winter kills which would also kill the LMB.
http://www.bassresource.com/fish_biology/growing-smallmouth.html

Spotails could spawn in a pond. No one has done much work with this species in ponds. I've always wanted to try them and you can provide some research for us. Spotails reportedly lay eggs on sand or on masses of filamentous algae. If your pond has both,,, spawning could be successful. Try to collect some bluntnose minnows and add them. They spawn like fatheads under rocks, concrete, etc. A bait shop that collects their own minnows may be able to get you some bluntnose minnows and or redbelly dace? YOu willnot need lots 20-50 would be okay and allowed to spawn before bass are added. I would add some crayfish before the smallies. YP and SMB eat crayfish.

Emerald shiners will not reproduce in a pond. IF you learn how to do that you will become rich. Goldern shiners will lay their egg in shallow water on algae mats and shallow weeds.

Thanks for the link to the great article. I think i will try the smb, are the yp easy to catch in a pond ? I was adding them as forage for the smb and as something for my 3yr old daughter to catch. Or should i use something else ? How many smb and yp should i put in ? These will be fish caught in our local river.
Thanks for all the help

YP are very easy to catch and make great panfish. My preferred baits are worms or minnows live or dead work okay for me. With proper management and not allowing them to become too abundant YP should easily grow to 10" and likely 12". Pellet feeding them makes the YP grow fast and large. It is best but not necessary to start with pellet trained YP as stockers. Since you are stocking juveniles and adults of mixed sizes the numbers to add could be tricky. It is not an exact science. First get your forage minnows introduced and spawning. Then after they populate add your YP and SMB. You want the spawn of your YP and SMB to survive. Have you read topics here about creating good spawning habitat for SMB? My one SMB article described good nesting materials for SMB. One benefit to first stocking smaller YP and SMB is they wont eat as many and as large of the minnows as larger stockers OF YP and smallies. This will give your pond extra time to develop more minnows and natural shoreline emergent vegetation to serve as cover for forage fish. Read past posts about beneficial plants for ponds.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=226443
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=212891#Post212891

I have spottails in my pond. So far, I cannot tell if they pulled off a spawn this spring or not. I stocked about 100 adults many of which were gravid females.

Hopefully CJ and luc can get their spottail shiners to spawn. The stage is set. If they get some success, we will have another shiner beneficial for pond stocking. I think the correct habitat of some clean sand bottom or some patches of shoreline or bottom growing FA will be key features to spawning success for spottail shiners. GSH also will use the same type of habitat for spawning.

For number of YP and SMB to stock, I have had good luck with first allowing the YP to spawn then add the predator of YP and minnows. Numerous things depend on the success of this plan. Several are cover-habitat, timing, pellet feeding, numbers and sizes stocked. Manual removal of YP eggs and young are often necessary to maintain balance. Theory is that the predator SMB will have YP and minnows to eat not just minnows as when SMB & just larger YP are stocked together. Small YP and minnows as forage will take some predatory pressure off the minnow community and hopefully allow more breeder minnows to spawn next year. One problem you will never have is too many forage minnows and shiners. If or when you are not seeing adult breeder minnows-shiners in the spring, that generally means you have too many predators, and or there is not enough cover or habitat as refuge for prey fish; often both contribute. One solution is to significantly thin the predators. Both SMB and adult YP are predators on the minnows-shiners. It is difficut to try and re-establish minnows and shiners once the predators become too abundant and take control. One suggested standard rate is remove 10:1 YP:SMB; this depends a lot on composition of the fish community, but usually the YP will outproduce the smallies. Sometimes a 30:1 or more YP removal rate is necessary. A small group of smallies can eat a lot of minnows-shiners. Consider adding a few walleye to prey on YP and SMB. OR you be the predator of the SMB. Management and fish balance is key to the success of all fisheries.

A few (10-30) mixed sizes of YP in one acre can produce several thousand will small YP which could be too many and result in an overpopulation. When selecting stocker YP remember, female YP are larger than cohort male YP. Possibility of early overpopulation is why it is best to start with balanced numbers of fingerling sportfish for an initial stocking. It provides a better chance of a blanaced predator-prey community. I would add the first wild caught SMB when the first spawn of YP are 2"-4" long probably in late summer, fall. Try to add at least 10-20 wild smallies 6"-12" long for the initial stocking. You should see some SMB young the first spring after the bass stocking. Male and female SMB are generally the same size at the same age.

Don't forget to add some native crayfish 1 yr before adding the smallies. Allow them to reproduce which occurs in spring, early summer. Provide crayfish habitat as shoreline piles 1-3ft deep of broken concrete, broken cement blocks, tile, or native rocks. This habitat helps numerous other pond inhabitants besides crayfish.

Thanks everyone for the great suggestions, forage minnows shouldn't be a problem theres a fairly large creek about 2 minutes from my pond and i just caught over 800 common shinners , golden shinners and a few red bellied dace to add to pond. Is there anything minnow wise that i shouldn't put in ?

Just be careful you don't introduce parasites, diseases, etc. Depending on the stream, it may contain some unwanted species. Just the other day while collecting forage fish to introduce to my pond, I caught several small goldfish. The friend with me had no idea what they were and almost placed them into the collecting bucket thinking they were shiners.

I would not add creek chubs if you can recognize them. They won't be a big problem but they won't spawn to rrecruit small chubs and they will compete for food with the larger minnows, YP and smaller bass. Creek chubs have a relatively large mouth and able to eat small minnows and large insect larvae.

Common shiners don't spawn in ponds to my experience. I have a few up to about 7" in my YP pond.
With the fish that you are collecting I think bluntnose minnows should be a fairly commonly occurring species in your collection sites.
http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/species_...66/Default.aspx


I would avoid sticklebacks, suckers, small redhorse, sunfishes, madtoms, bullheads, andof course carp. I think mudminnows (Umbra limi) are okay. Most shiners species will survive, however most will not reproduce in the pond habitat.
Try to avoid long term additions of fish from wild sources the longer one uses the wild stock the odds increase for introducing unwanted parasites and diseases. Parasites and diseases can be introduced through many sources. Try to minimize them.

Check to see if there are any pellet trained YP fish farms within 3 hrs of you. They are worth the price and time to drive and get some 200-400.
The above stocking numbers are purely suggestions. Others are very welcome to provide input and put ideas up for discussion.

found lots of these in a friends pond, can someone ID these for me we are arguing about what they are

CJ should see this. Interesting fish. I can't see the snout very well. Picture is slightly out of focus. It looks like it has a rounded snout withaslightly underslung or inferior mouth??. It appears to be some sort of shiner. Diamond shapes scales indicates maybe smaller common shiner?? Does the pond have stream access? Are there larger ones? If they are reproducing in his pond put some in yours. I doubt they will ever be a problem. Common shiners are not known to reproduce in ponds.

The pond is 1/4 acre and was dug 2 years ago , he never put anything in it and we figure they got in there when the ditch floods every spring. There is thousands in it, we put a trap out with bread and there was a hundred or so swimming around it. We also caught some small sunfish and catfish in the trap.

My bet is on it being a brassy minnow, Hybognathus hankinsoni. They are common in southern Ontario, can be found in small streams, but will also do well in ponds with no or limited predators. Great forage fish, however they evolved much like FHM to be in habitats where predators, especially large aggressive ones are limited. So they may not fair well in a small pond once predators are stocked. They are closely related to the eastern silvery minnow which I am currently working with as a pond forage candidate. They are adapted to slower cold streams and ponds in northern areas, often ones that are boggy and acidic. Brook trout are probably their biggest predator in the wild as both can be found in the same habitat.

As an interesting note: Brassy minnows as well as eastern silvery minnows have a very long gut. An adaptation allowing them to feed and utilize algae as a major food source of theirs.

As far as species to consider, I would definitely utilize the brassy minnows. It will be interesting to see how they fair once predation occurs. Northern redbelly dace, Phoxinus eos are another option. They spawn on mats of FA. Again, they may not fair well under heavy predation. Finescale Dace, Phoxinus neogaeus would be another species found in your area preferring similar habitat.

I think the key here is to allow a reasonable amount of aquatic vegetation to cover your pond. 30%-40% would allow refuge for your forage. Then limit the amount of predators and never allow them to become too abundant if you wish to utilize these native forage species.

Thanks for all the help, i transfered about 200 of these brassy minnows to my pond, they seem to be doing well in his pond, only predator would be sunfish in it. How are small mouth bass in a pond, fishing wise? I've ever only caught them in deep water while fishing for walleye, will they bite on topwater lures, spinner baits ?

SMB in ponds are a great predator and usually easy to catch very similar to LMB. SMB bite a wide variety of lures and live baits. They do become hook smart with frequent angling pressure similar to LMB and BG. SMB usually do not produce an over abundance of small bass common for LMB. This can be good where better and easier predator control is desired. SMB like LMB both have benefits depending on ones goals and needs of the fishery for good balance. I would look for some hardy hybrid water lilies (garden pond nursery?) and plant a few in your pond so they can become established before the predators are introduced. Hybrid Lilies are noninvasive spread relatively slow and are good open water season cover for minnows. Avoid wild white water lilies, spatterdock, and water shield. With SMB in the pond you will need a significant amount of vegetation cover to provide small minnows enough refuge to protect some breeders for the next spawning year. Predators can easily become too abundant when just smaller sized minnows are the main forage fish.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=110943#Post110943

Good identification by CJ for the brassy minnow.

Just to confuse us, the academics have changed the Phoxinus genus to Chrosomus recently.

Wonderful... Ichthyologists seems to have too much time on their hands with how often they change the genus of fish. HAHA

how about this guy , verry shiny almost mother of pearl like

or this one

Bottom fish is 100% no doubt a male FHM. The top fish is a bit washed out... However it sure looks like a small GSH to me.

This one female gsh ? funny how this one small pond has so many different kid of fish, and only way i could see anything getting in it is from a small ditch that maybe flooded in spring melt an ran over dam into pond.

That looks like a female GSH full of eggs to me!