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#293683 05/28/12 06:09 PM
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If your gonna change up your blog and write stuff like you just wrote, I'm gonna need to be able to make a few comments about it somewhere....just sayin'


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Hey Bob Just a thought about your blog topic from a newbie. genetics has got to be high on the priorities for fish we stock because without them then the fish never have the potential to become large. But perhaps more important based on some of your comments about the first stockings doing the best would be the conservation of energy those fish enjoyed by being the top dog there whole life. Never having to waste energy running and hiding, no stress worrying about being someone elses lunch. All they have to do is eat and get big. Perhaps that might be "the missing link". No other fish put in after the original stocking would have that care free life style. Just a thought....

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Nate -- how about if I post Bob's post here so that people can comment? I think Bob's post can really open up some great discussions and observations by the many regular members, such as you, who are managing for major private waters customers.

Regards,
Ken

Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
Typically, I write about travels and what I do. While that's pretty interesting, it seems some blogging about pond management is also pretty interesting. Over the past year and a half, some things have happened which have begun to change the way I look at fisheries management, especially managing largemouth bass.

For this blog session, I'll toss out the clues which have begun to make me think even more deeply about what I do, which is to help people be better stewards of their land and water.

First clue, the state record for largemouth bass in Texas is 18.18 lbs, caught in Lake Fork in 1992. 1992! That's 20 years ago.

Then, a meeting with Texas Parks and Wildlife fisheries guys last summer showed me beyond any doubt that they are only interested in private waters if they can have a perpetual lease and total control of the lake...and it must be several hundred acres. (The reason this is significant is because of their work with largemouth bass genetics). They are mandated by law to take care of the natural resources of the state of Texas, not private waters.

Part of the interest in this meeting is because one of my clients owns the first lake ever stocked with pure strain Florida bass in Texas in 1972. About that time, several private lakes received Florida bass, to see if they could be adaptable to Texas waters. In 1981, one of the lakes which received those fish yielded a new state record, which was soon broken by the same angler. If memory serves, that fish was larger than 15 lbs. After that, the state record fell regularly, until 1992.

For several years (at least 10), I've been thinking about the actual impact of genetics on largemouth bass fisheries. While it's obviously significant, is it more significant than all the other variables in a lake's fishery, such as water quality, food chain and habitat? But, I'm not in the research business...I'm in the "results" business. My clients pay to have the best fishing lakes they can have, not necessarily for me to figure out this stuff.

About that same time last summer, a visit to LL,2 by Dr. Dave Willis and Dr. Brian Graeb set the wheels in motion to do some practical investigations about these genetic things. We brainstormed to think of a practical research project that could involve fisheries students and help figure out the significance of genetics, long term.

Another thing that has my mind rolling is the "box" of largemouth bass. Inside that box are these factoids.
1) Inevitably, largemouth bass become overcrowded, which makes them tough to manage. Harvesting intermediate-sized bass is a must. But, most people simply won't do it.
2) They are cannibals, eating anything which will fit into their mouths. This is significant because it allows us virtually no control over genetic selection or their number...see #1.
3) Once in "balance", catch rates become less predictable, making these fish less desirable.
4) Bass have only so many heartbeats, therefore only so much time. If they have the best genetics and the best food chain, what can happen?
5) Only females can grow large. That means 50% of the bass in each hatch don't stand a chance to grow very large.
6) Bass tend to reproduce like crazy, with little survival of young, compared to the numbers hatched...even though they tend to become overcrowded.
7) As bass grow into different size classes, their behavior changes. Big bass tend to eat big meals.

So, trying to grow giant bass is not only difficult, catching them can be difficult, too, especially for less-experienced anglers.

Other clues are: A Bass' food chain ebbs and flows. They are opportunitistic cannibals. What they have available to eat in April and May is quite different from what they'll have in July and August, which will be different than what they'll have in October and November.

So, as my mind has begun to wrap around these different clues, I'm wondering what it will take to methodically figure out the significance of genetics, how to fill the gaps inside every single natural food chain and how to be more selective about what fish are harvested from a lake and what fish should remain behind to ensure a strong pool of recruited fish into that given fishery.

When I think of genetics, here's what goes through my mind. A great dog breeder can take his best male, say a black lab, with lineage of royalty, the attitude of the best hunter, a great disposition...the best dog ever...and breed it with a female of like lineage and character. When she has that litter, will all the puppies have the same great qualities of both parents? I think that answer is a big "No". There will be a "pick of the litter" and puppies which are passive, some aggressive, some timid, some not...

Now, look at bass. That great female, say a 13-14 pounder, obviously has the genetics to grow so large. But, when she breeds with a random male or several other males (even if they are hand selected), will all her babies carry the same potential? Right now, I can't believe they do...until someone proves me wrong. If that female lays 30,000 eggs and they all hatch, what happens next is what makes me think the odds of growing a giant bass via natural reproduction in an existing lake are greater than the odds of being struck by lightning. 15,000 are disqualified simply because they are males. The other 15,000 will have genetic diversity similar to those puppies. Some will be aggressive, some won't. Some will grow fast, others won't. Throw in the fact that they are hatched into a system where there is an active population of predators and their survival rates are nearly zero. So, IF the best bass are able to survive, AND they have the genetic potential to grow huge, will they?

Here's another clue. That long standing Texas state record is 18.18. 1992. The final closure of the gates on Lake Fork was 1980. For several years prior, ponds in that watershed were dismissed of their fish and restocked with Florida bass, so when the lake filled, it would have a jump start with its bass. If you look at the top ten bass in Texas, 7 are from Lake Fork, all caught prior to March, 1993. The significance of this clue suggests that the biggest bass caught are the ones originally stocked into that lake. I see a parallel occurance in private waters. The first stocked fish are the ones which stand the best chance to grow well into double digits. If a Florida bass lives 12-15 years, as purported by those in the know, then the records in Lake Fork were those originally stocked bass reaching their end gain. That begs the question, "Why hasn't there been larger bass caught since 1992 in Texas lakes?"

Is it really simply a question of genetics? Or, is it a question of genetics AND opportunity?

It will be interesting to watch Falcon Lake over the next few years. It has many of the characteristics of a new lake. It was extremely low for several years and then rapidly filled. What has followed has been an explosion of growth of forage fish, followed by rapid growth of bass. If those bass have the "best" genetics, some of them have the potential to grow to sizes larger than what has been seen in Lake Fork.

Here's the rub in my brain. What will it take to ensure a lake has the opportunity to recruit the "best" genetics into its mature fishery, enough to have the next generations have the opportunity to grow larger, beyond the last generations?



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That seems to me to be a tall order. Trying to manage for the best possible genetics in what amounts to a wild population of fish? I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to these matters, but it would appear to me that falling back on the basics of water quality, food, and properly determined harvest practices, are the only variables open for manipulation, once the initial stockings have taken place.

I suppose one could tag every single LMB upon stocking, then maintain fanatical records for the next few years concerning every single fish caught, fish heavy, conduct frequent and routine electroshock/ sampling sessions, comparing those fish against an established benchmark, eliminating those individuals who didn't exceed that benchmark. That would seem, in my mind at least, to hold the best possible chance of retaining quality genetics. A very tall order to say the least, and there's certainly no guarantee that the fish spawned from those genetics would exceed the potential of their parents. Sounds like an uphill battle, as well as a near impossibility to implement.

A put and take LMB fishery would give you more control over genetics, but surely the costs and timeframe involved would render it unfeasible.

Just some ramblings from an interested amateur observer. I look forward to reading the more informed opinions.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Bob/Nate:

Just want to be clear, are we talking about larger private ponds/lakes where fishing pressure/harvest and fishing techniques/fish handling rules can be implemented, or public waters?

Bob/Nate, what size BOW's are we talking about? I'll be reading this with interest, as I know of a 35 ac private pond that has different year classes of great genetic Florida LMB in it. The owner is managing it for large LMB. There's a 70+ ac "pond" on the property too........


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Bring on the comments!


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He can teach to catch fish...
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Bob, great topic! I think we all will learn from this one! I for one will be very interested. I have learned so much from pondboss in the last year that I think I am ready to learn at a higher level this year.

Nate, kodos for wanting to keep this going for us all.

I for one think you have to start with the water and work from there. The food chain backbones are next and then genetics are right behind. But no matter what we do, there are no guarantees.

I look forward to this conversation!!!


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The easiest way to select for large fish would be to create an inbred strain. Take two prize individuals and breed them in isolation. Raise the fry to adult size, select the largest individuals again, and breed them together. Repeat. In just a few generations you will have your monster bass. The thing is, you will have created huge fish, but you will have compromised their genetic fitness by inbreeding.

One problem with selecting for any particular trait for LMB that then are released into ponds is the different type of selective pressure present in the pond. Those 30,000 fry in your pond from your prize pairing selected for huge size are going to be subjected to intense selection for fitness, which is not the same thing as large adult size. There will be genetic variability among those 30,000, and over time, natural selection will inevitably work against you. The selection could be maintained in cages of fish carefully fed and monitored as a 'purebred' stock, but once released into a pond and allowed to reproduce (even as the sole LMB strain) the selection would be lost over time.

Put simply, the "best bass" from among those fry will likely not grow the largest in the wild. Nature is selecting for those individuals best adapted to surviving that environment, not for those most likely to be hung as trophies on the office wall.

Best case scenario, there would be genetic 'herds' of purebred LMB carefully maintained somewhere. Fish from these ponds could be planted and grown out, but long-term maintenance of this phenotype in a pond would be difficult.

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Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
Bring on the comments!

Bob, if we use Lake Fork as an anology - I know a lot about Lake Fork begining from the first stage stocking ponds with Florida Bass that spread when flooded. Fished all three rises until so many boats you could walk across lake without getting your feet wet... grin Betcha DD1 as well...

Simple for me - those fish have been caught and released so many times they have seen every lure and bait ever made - that's where C&R was invented. Many easy fish caught and released likely died and hard to catch Florida survivors remain.

In the beginning 100 fish days were common - then slot limit rules came along. It became so commercial, Lake Fork ruined bass fishing for me.



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Originally Posted By: Bob Lusk
If you look at the top ten bass in Texas, 7 are from Lake Fork, all caught prior to March, 1993. The significance of this clue suggests that the biggest bass caught are the ones originally stocked into that lake. I see a parallel occurance in private waters. The first stocked fish are the ones which stand the best chance to grow well into double digits. Is it really simply a question of genetics? Or, is it a question of genetics AND opportunity?


Genetics AND opportunity IMO. Phenomenal growths rates usually occur across the board when fish are first stocked into new waters even when the best genetics were never part of the plan. Setting the stage for that initial stocking becomes extremely important, add in good genetics and a management plan and you are on your way.

If I were breeding fish I would breed the least choosy eaters and cull highly "picky" eaters. With angler harvest usually the opposite occurs.



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Originally Posted By: Bocomo
The easiest way to select for large fish would be to create an inbred strain. Take two prize individuals and breed them in isolation. Raise the fry to adult size, select the largest individuals again, and breed them together. Repeat. In just a few generations you will have your monster bass.


I wanted to say that I totally disagree. It may sound good in theory but practice never proves that. Why do people forbid marriage between brother and sister? Why do sheep-farmers every year take another ram? Reproduction among close relatives after some generations lead to degeneration. You won't get healthy and huge bass but little and probably not very healthy ones.
That's why NEW BLOOD is needed to improve genes.

By the way:
Some polar nations have a tradition to offer sex with their wives to any guest. Sounds weird? Do you think they are filthy pople? Not at all. As they live far from large cities, they have no chance to avoid making children between close relatives. So they try to use any chance to improve quality of possible child. Being degenerate would lead them to death.

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Bob's blog was most intriguing to me because I have been studying exactly that daily. To see the results from Lake Fork which I know little about was interesting for sure.

Those first 2-4 years of life are very hard on a small largemouth bass out in the "wild". The whole feed trained bass phenomenon in smaller bodies of water the last few years has led to some very interesting observations in which normally we have been stocking adult sized feed trained bass. Had it not been for that it would have taken a long time to figure out the ramifications of stocking adult or midsized bass into lakes and ponds of various sizes.

Anyhow my 30 acre lake for example produces monster fish, but they are all virtually stocked fish! (all the BIG fish are stocked fish) I cant get a fish to grow to a trophy that has been hatched and lived its whole life in my lake, across the board, it just doesnt happen very often, not in my lake and not in very many other peoples lakes as well. I can grow NICE fish from day one, but not trophy fish. So what I do is I either raise fish in cages for a year before releasing them or I raise them in hatchery ponds before releasing them or I buy them big already. All of those fish turn into BIG fish.

I have applied this same concept to many many other bodies of water with TREMENDOUS results. Now keep in mind there are many many other limiting factors unique to each situation that need addressed, but across the board it is very hard to grow a fish that is born in your lake or pond into a TROPHY. Nice fish is easy to do, but trophy is a different story.

Just think about all of your pond and lake fishing experiences and trophy caliber fish you have caught, where did that fish originate from?


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So perhaps a put-and-take scenario for trophy LMB is not as farfetched as it sounds? I am curious though, as to what the "cutoff point" is on a stocked fish? In other words, how big do the stockers need to be before they can be considered potential trophy fish? Taking into account the other limiting factors referred to.

What do you want to see in a LMB before you would consider it a candidate for trophy status?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I am going to wait a while before wading in on the issues.

I have a question and thought.

Has anyone seen/verified a 10 lb + LMB that is a feed trained LMB (raised and survives mostly on pellets) ?

Two basic approaches to ponds (waters under 25 acres +-) that will produce big healthy trophy LMB by fishing - the hamster wheel or the deferred gratification approach. There is a lot going on in this area and time will add to the knowledge base. Sustained compensatory growth while balanced on a knife edge of variables is a difficult job.
















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Wow, this is some good stuff. I'm not qualified to add anything significant, so I'll just sit back and enjoy the ride.


Just do it...
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Nate, so what I'm seeing you say is that if a fish, when small gets good nutrition, and minimal stress, they start growing quickly, and if that is carried out in their life for the first years, then they continue to do so?

Do you have any ponds that have "trophy" fish that are not on pellets now?


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This is a very interesting topic and I love the analogy of balancing the variables on a knife edge ewest. Taking into account all of the variables present ie, genetics, feeding, proper forage, water quality, and fish status. I think it is nec. to achieve the highest quality of each, however, perhaps the one that is most difficult to replicate (assuming all others are of highest standards possible) is the fishes status during the initial stocking. Like I mentioned above that status of being on the very top of the food chain no matter what the species of fish. Looking at nature as a whole it is replicated in all species of animals over and over until deterioration from old age.Ie; the buck that grows unmolested in the suburbs, the alpha male wolf in glacier national park, That herd bull elk in yellowstone, the bruin bears of the kodiak . We find all of our "trophies" in nature occuring in situations where they can capitalize on conservation of energy allowing them to live longer stress free lives. Some of those areas may not have the best genetics or the best forage or the best quality of habitat. But the one thing they do have in common is the best possible scenario to achieve status. So perhaps as n8ly and others suggested the key may be in growing your select species of fish in a stress free environment and releasing it once it is big enough to maintain an alpha status.Perhaps that would work in ensuring a larger than home grown fish. I'll be quite and listen now

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I am not talking pellets at all here, in fact not even talking largemouth bass, but rather pretty much most species of fish. I mentioned pellet trained bass because that is what got me to start stocking larger sized fish in general.

for my lake in particular its alot of bluegill that I am raising very large and those are all stocked fish that are getting big. The bluegill that are raised in the lake just simply dont make it or when they do they dont make it to trophy.

even taking small fish from a lake or pond and putting them into utopia (hatchery pond or cage) for as little as 6 months turns those fish into much bigger fish than they would ever become on their own out in the real world for their whole lives.

think way outside the box here and look at the data from the texas state record largemouth bass again. then look back at all of your own fishing experiences and fish stocking experiences.

If you dig deep enough and look back hard enough you will find that most truly big trophy sized fish were not hatched and raised their whole life in the same lake or pond in which they were caught from. Nice fish, yes. Trophy fish, No. When a trophy fish is caught, more than likely there is more to the story....

Prove me wrong...Anybody?


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Esshup,
If I had to put a number on percentage of lakes I help manage with and without pellet feed programs, I would have to say that less than 20% use pellets.

I can almost always grow large trophy sized fish without pellets when stocking a new body of water.


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So if I understand this correctly, a new BOW has one initial shot at producing not large, but trophy sized fish? And after that initial stocking, the best chance at further trophies will come from supplemental stockings of fish that have had, shall we say, a priveledged start, vs naturalized offspring born to fish of great genetics, in that BOW?

I hesitate to ask this, as surely I'm missing something here, but it sounds like you're saying genetics has little impact on producing trophy fish?

I don't want to appear blunt, or disrespectful to anyone, just want to make sure my limited grasp on the subject doesn't slip any further.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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Even I confuse/contradict myself without clearly defining trophy, big, nice, large, etc. Also not saying anything is absolute and more would like to hear from others experiences so we all can better grasp what truly goes on with fish populations. What does it take to produce TROPHY fish? I regularly observe that the typical common pond stockings/management does not produce trophy fish.

Initial stockings is much easier to produce big fish.

Anybody ever caught a monster crappie or other abnormally large fish out of a body of water that the people didnt even know was in there or wasnt supposed to be in there?

Anybody have experiences with trophy or large caliber of fish they can add to the discussion?


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Nate, I'm behind the curve. I have SMB/YP in cages now that I'm feeding, and have plans to dig a couple of production ponds on the property to do just what you have done already with regards to giving them a great start on life. One clients pond was stocked last year with LMB that has a large forage base and not a lot of competition from predators. I'll be monitoring growth this year and report back.


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What is considered a Trophy fish? There have been several 8+ and a 10 pound LMB caught out of my pond. Crappies 2.5 pounds are caught. The pond was stocked 12 years ago and has not been managed since then. Mostly catch and release. The fish are not fed or no new stockings have been done. I do not know anything about pond management, just lucky to find this place.
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Thanks KingRace! Hopefully more people will add their experiences. Maybe someone will chime in with the definition of trophy too. In Kansas I would sure classify 8-10 lbs as a trophy. Being stocked 12 years ago would support our theory that those big fish caught over the years were more than likely not produced from your pond, but rather stocked into it.


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Bob and Nate -- thanks for starting this. It is one of the most interesting threads ever.

With an empty new pond at full pool, and several new brood/grow-out ponds at full pool, I'm really interested in hearing a lot more about this subject.

Ken


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by esshup - 04/18/24 10:02 AM
Buying LMB
by esshup - 04/18/24 09:56 AM
Braggin Time
by Dave Davidson1 - 04/18/24 07:12 AM
How many LMB to remove?
by Foozle - 04/18/24 05:59 AM
Opportunistic Munchers
by Snipe - 04/17/24 11:25 PM
EURYHALINE POND UPDATE
by Fishingadventure - 04/17/24 10:48 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
Eagles Over The Pond Yesterday
by Tbar, December 10
Deer at Theo's 2023
Deer at Theo's 2023
by Theo Gallus, November 13
Minnow identification
Minnow identification
by Mike Troyer, October 6
Sharing the Food
Sharing the Food
by FishinRod, September 9
Nice BGxRES
Nice BGxRES
by Theo Gallus, July 28
Snake Identification
Snake Identification
by Rangersedge, July 12

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