Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Feeding Purina Feed Choice for Bream & HSB

For three years, I have been feeding Purina Game Chow with CC getting most of it.

This year I hope to have CC numbers low enough and feed trained BG numbers high enough for the BG to be getting a significant (most, if I'm very lucky) part of the feed. And I will be stocking HSB, hopefully as soon as this coming Fall.

Accept the fact that I will be sticking with Purina feed for several socio-economic reasons (mill is 1.5 miles away, major and minor partners in the mill are my neighbors, wife goes there every week for horse feed and will pick up my fish chow for me). Which Purina feed would be best for the growth and health of BG, HSB, and (for an experiment) RES? I am thinking Aquamax Carnivore, which thread research here shows to be 40 or 41% protein. IIRC it comes in 400, 500 or 600, which are increasing pellet sizes. Which size would be optimum for BG? I can up the size when the HSB go in of that works out better for them, and if it's smaller than optimum for the CC, too bad.

Theo, I'm no expert on fish nutrition but I have been using Aquamax for my HBG because several hatcheries highly recommended the high protein. I started with the 100 when the fish were stocked at about 1 inch long. This is a sinking food. Then I moved to the 300 and eventually the 500. I still use the 500 for fish up to 10". I've noticed that the smaller 3 to 4 inch fish will sometimes spit the 500 out so it appears to be on the edge for them. I can't find anything on the Purina site telling which foods float and which ones sink which is odd. But I think the powder, the 100, and maybe the 200 are sinkers. The rest are floaters. The mill would no doubt be able to verify. I don't know how it compares to other brands but I noticed that the Purina floating stuff really floats, it will float for 24 hours or more. I've also used the game fish food and I've noticed that my fish seem to like the taste/smell of the aquamax better. I can put aquamax in the pond and all the fish for 50 feet around will get turned on. Don't know if they smell it or what.

Bruce may be able to provide some input as to what he found as a good protein content for his adventures of growing HSB.

Theo I think Aquamax will work okay for HSB and bgill. I used it to grow 27" HSB. However Aquamax has too much filler and chicken feathers for my "taste". The tiny silver flecks in Aquamax carnivoir pellets are caused by chicken feather meal. Chicken feather meals are added to boost protein levels but it is not digestable by fish! Go figure. If you are interested in a little better quality fish food, then contact John Bechtel Fredricktown Aquaculture Mansfield OH 440-892-2722. He uses and sells Silver Cup - the best fish food made. If you are producing fish that require quality protein for maximum growth and to meet schedule deadlines then Silver Cup is the food of choice. I wish I was closer to him I would use Silver Cup food. He may have some types with protein content up to 45%+. When feeding smaller fish, the general rule is to use a pellet size that is as big as the fish's eye diameter.

How far are you from Bechtol? I may take a trip over there this summer and stop by for a visit.

POSTSCRIPT - Aquamax mfg by Purina Mills is very adequate for just about all fish in ponds. Aquamax is made in two varieties Carnivoir - blue bag for bass yellow perch, trout, & bgill love it, and Omnivoir - green bag for Catfish, talipia, bgill.

Theo, as you well know – whenever Bill Cody speaks – we better listen….!

Silver cup is not available from any of our suppliers, that I know of, in our area.

We mix Aquamax 500 and 600 and have fed for more than 4 years with excellent results.
AQMX 400 would be a good addition to the mix if you stock fingerling HSB, which I do not recommend stocking in an existing pond with adult LMB.

I highly recommend this product - unless Silver Cup is available of course………

0ur BG and HSB are fat and happy – along with CC that we are removing.

George Glazener

Thanks guys, for the replies.

Chicken feathers. I am not really surprised. Much of the "raw protein %" that can be seen on the tags of large mammal feed is just chicken, well, manure.

OTOH I still eat Hormel Chili 30 years after first reading what all could be found in it.

Purina's web info on their fish food is rather disappointing right now. IIRC it has been disappointing to other pondmeisters in the past.

I think I will see if my local mill can get Silver Cup (have never seen it in feed/farm stores nearby, but the mill may have to order Aquamax if I go with that, so maybe they can order Silver Cup). If not, I'm think Aquamax Carnivore in the 400-500 range. I can break up small volumes for small fingerlings for special purposes. When I stock HSB they will have to be bigger ones (10" -12" desired) because of the existing bass population.

Bill, I am about 53 miles due South of Mansfield via routes 13 (to Mt. Vernon), 661 (to Granville), and 37 (last 2 miles). If you have some strange desire to add 2 hours to your drive when you go to Mansfield, let me know the date. I would be tickled to meet you, show you my pond and future pond sites, and pick your brain of all that I am doing wrong.

If it's any consolation I use Purina Aquamax for my fish as it's not economical to get Silver Cup. I'd have to drive 3 to 5 hours round trip to pick it up every few months. Can't justify that.

Right now all I have to do is call my local feed mill and they will have whatever Aquamax size and grade I want within a few days.

Silver Cup is the best, but not sure if it's that much better to justify the trouble for a recreational pond grower if a supplier is not in your area.

Where is Bruce on this topic? It seems that I protrayed a bad image of Aquamax Carnivore diet. Sorry for scarring the readers . As I mentioned earlier I have used Purina trout chow and now Aquamax carnivore for YEARS. I STILL use it when I have a hard time getting what I think is a slightly better fish food. By better I mean something with slightly higher protein and a little less fat content. Aquamax seems to grow fish just fine. However I have had some fish raisers that are pretty particular tell me that Aquamax contains too much fat and it contributes to fatty livers & clogged arteries and shortens a fish's life expectancy. Although this is not proven information to my knowledge; just an occassional fish disection. I think a lot of fish growers just grow fish big enough for a market and don't care about life span.

Theo - How about me picking your brain about all you are doing correct? You should tell your wife that I said you should take her out to eat twice a year(spring and summer)and maybe a movie to Mansfield. Your wife will love you more for that kindness. While out get a bag or two each trip of Silver Cup from Bechtel. Maybe try Silver Cup next year (2007) after you lived with Aquamax for a feeding season.

I guarantee you that you will not be able to get Silver Cup through the local feed mill unless you order one bag directly from Utah. If you do that, you might as well drive down to Bechtel's and get a bag cause it will be cheaper once you pay the shipping. UPS shipping will cost more than the feed! Yes chicken feather meal adds protein so when lab analyses are performed the protein content is consistant with that on the bag label. This seems to be a common fish food mfg trick. Zeiglers out of Pennsylvania appear to do this chicken feather enhancement. I also notice a small amount of the "silver flecks" in Silver Cup food so it appears they also do it to some extent. All my skepticism is probably just academic. I will tell you one thing for sure, when you switch over to Aquamax carnivore you will notice an increase in feeding activity of the fish.

If I forgot anything I will be back later on this topic.

Thanks, Bill.

The Missus would probably love a trip to the big city to see a Movie. Is it true that some of them are in color nowadays?

Learning.

I was going to ask the same question myself. I wish I knew more about feed. I am actually in the process of deciding what to feed this year. My bluegill seem to adapt to everything I throw at them eventually, but I am worried just a little about the lifespan issue.

BTW, my HSB went wild on the Silver Cup for years, but seem to like the Aquamax 600 just as well, which is what I fed last year.

Here is some general info on feed.

http://srac.tamu.edu/tmppdfs/7107322-121fs.pdf

Theo :

What type of info are you looking for ?

You have info on RES.

Here are several titles.

Effect of Diet and Strain on Growth and Performance in Hybrid Bluegills

Abstract.—Little is known about the diets and genetic strains that are optimal for the production of hybrids of bluegill Lepomis macrochirus. The objective of this study was to determine whether there are differences in feed, nitrogen and amino acid conversion, lipid deposition, liver lysine oxidation, and liver glycogen in two such hybrids ...fed five commercially available diets. The diets were formulated to the following minimum crude protein (CP)–fat ratios: 32/3, 38/8, 40/10, 42/16, and 45/20. Liver lysine oxidation and whole-body lipid deposition was not significantly different between strains. Consumption of the 42/16 diet resulted in increased growth, a better feed conversion (P < 0.05), and a better retention of specific amino acids than all other diets... Diet composition did not result in significant differences in liver lysine oxidation, liver glycogen, and lipid deposition, regardless of strain. These data demonstrate that genetic strain and diet have important impacts on bluegill production and that the most nutrient-dense diets do not necessarily lead to enhanced performance relative to diets of lower CP and fat.


Effects of Dietary Protein Concentration on Growth, Feed Efficiency, and Body Composition of Age-0 Striped Bass


Growth, Survival, and Body Composition of Largemouth Bass Fed Various Commercial Diets and Protein Concentrations

Evaluation of Practical Bluegill Diets with Varying Protein and Energy Levels

ewest - It is important to realize that most of these referenced studies used smaller sized fish. Reseach has shown that as fish reach larger sizes their nutrition requirements change somewhat similar to current theories for dogs and probably people. The vets always tell you that you are not supposed to feed dogs table scraps because it has way too much fat in it and it is unhealthy. What does that information tell you about most of our people food?

Yes Theo, color movies are all the rage now!

ewest:

I believe I have my answer - HSB do well on Aquamax, and BG should eat it no problem. If that's what I'm going to feed, that's what successfully feed-trained RES will have to learn to eat.

I'm sure the CC will continue to scarf up a lion's share.

Bill:

Amazing! What will Mr DeMille think of next?

Theo - Next is Ipods and Blackberries. Check them out you will be amazed again. Your daughter will coach you on this! Good news. I had one 11.5" redear eating Aquamax and it seemed to like it!

Theo and Bill :

At one source there were 360+- articles on formulated fish food. They cover all types of fish from CC to paddlefish to LMB to sunfish of many types and trout and baitfish. They cover protein %, lipids, carbs. etc. and results and bioenergetics and disease ie liver problems and many other side issues like sex reversal and drugs. A number of them list specific feeds/brands/formulations. The question was what aspect of all this was Theo interested in checking. My reply was directed to info mgt. overload!!

This thread has me wondering, for the first time, exactly what goes into making fish food. What is the actual relationship between quick growth/conversion rate and shortened life span? Okay, it has a certain protien count and, as BC said, some have more and some less fat. Something has to bind it. But what goes into the making of that protien count and is that the most important factor?

Since I don't really know what really goes into making a hot dog, this probably isn't going to keep me away nights. And, I would give long odds that it is "by products"; certainly not top sirloin or chicken breast. Chicken skin is pretty fatty and is a no-no on a low cholesterol diet. I can identify corn and if the protien is almost all vegetable based then there shouldn't be a price difference between different types. The growth stuff that goes into raising chickens and fattening cows at feed lots would turn anybody into a vegeterian and I'm not a vegetarian.

I've chopped up chicken feathers and added them to some of my experimental catfish baits as a binding agent. I've never thought of grinding them for any reason. There can't be much beneficial protien in them.

DD:

I can't remember which comedian had a routine about finding out that hotdogs contained beef lips. This kinda grossed him out - he always thought beef lips were the sort of "beef by-product" that went into dog food.

Then he realized that there must be a part of a cow worse than beef lips that went into dog food.

Dave :

Do you realy want to know ?

In one study :
Ingredient
Casein + gelatin (4: 1 )
Fish meal
Defatted soybean meal
Broken rice
Dried layer waste (DLW)
Vegetable oil
Vitamin C
Vitamin mixtureb
Mineral mixturec
Cellulose
Proximate composition
Corrected crude protein
Crude fat
Crude fiber
Total ash
Nitrogen-free extract


Here are some others listed :

Menhaden Oils
Fish Meal with Meat-and-Bone Meal, Flash-Dried Poultry By-Product Meal, and Enzyme-Digested Poultry By-Product Meal
Animal By-Products
Plant-and-Krill-Based
Dried Waste Egg Product
Cottonseed Meal
Cod Liver Oil
Insoluble Ash
Hemoglobin Powder
Corn Gluten
Potato and Corn Meal
Purified Fatty Acids
Dietary Androgen-Estrogen Combinations

We use growth additives in cows so why not fish ?
This list is from several studies . I am not saying these are what are in any formulated commerical fish food but you might want to check.

I wonder what DLW means? Sounds ominous.

I was talking to a consultant from a huge IT company who had worked on a contract at a large poultry operation. While being shown around the operation, she saw one chicken fall over and die. When asked why, she was told that they were fed so many growth hormones that sometimes the results were lethal. She didn't ask about the ultimate disposition of the fatalities.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I'm skeptical of the use of growth hormones in beef and poultry. (Not saying what Dave said is untrue but he may have been BS'd) Why? Because in the aquaculture industry where farmers grow out fish for consumption it is strictly forbidden. The FDA will shut you done. No bones about it. They take it very seriously.

So why would they allow it in the beef and poultry business and not in aquaculture?

We raised chickens on the family five oclock farm when I was a kid. I remember some of them growing so fast their legs couldn't support the bodies and they fell over etc. It was not due to hormones. They had been bred to put on weight as fast as possible.

BTW, the use of antibiotics and chemicals are also strictly regulated in the aquaculture industry. Fish farmers that grow out fish for consumption have very few that they are allowed to use. If they do use something they are not allowed to use they will be shut down.

Here is my quick 2 cents. It is about money right? Cecil breifly mentioned this but no one else has. I mean you have a budget so I think the question is what is the best food for Theo is what is best for bluegill and now hybrids. They require two diff diets. Do you go with the Best ( silver cup?) but at what cost if lots of it is eaten by bluegill that may not require the higher protein, digestiability, etc.

Even when just talking about bluegill for example they will grow with 32% cheap food, most pondowners in GA use this. It is about $10-$12 /bag. The growth is much better with 36% 5.5 % fat, so I sell that it is $16. However the growth would be even better if they bought our trout chow that is 44% proteint and 18% fat but it cost $23/bag. One client does simply amazing the size of the bluegill numerous legit 1.5 lb and he says he has them over 3 lbs.

However no way no how would I tell someone to use this the diff in growth is not worth the diff in price especially if not feeding to satiation across the whole pond. I should state the most of my clients enjoy bluegill but mainly they are there to grow to put pounds on bass. I have a hard time talkking thme into spending the extra $4 on 36% smaller pellets size food vs. cheap catfish food. however I think for the all mighty dollar it is the best choice. Get my point?

On another note I'm in the process of hiring a grad from Auburn who is jsut finishing doctoral defense on fish nutrition. If he does accept the offer I will get him registered here and he can gee whiz you guys all day about this sutff.

First Theo has the info so he can compare and decide based on all the factors.

Second DLW is chicken litter waste as processed.

Third there are many aspects to aquaculture grow out and all don't deal with human food consumption. The growth additives part is true but was added to liven things up. Don't worry about it because as CB1 says the food part is regulated.

Once upon a time another "CB1" (in this case, it stood for Caustic Bastard the First) unrelated to our own CB1 told me:

"You know what that white stuff in DLW is?
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It's DLW too."

Cecil, wrt growth hormones in the cattle industry, I can't tell you what is actually industry standard because I'm just a little guy selling 2 or 3 head a year. But it is a "given fact" (as opposed to a proven fact) among virtually everyone I have known with cattle that growth hormones are used by the big operations. Perhaps that is old news and it is no longer allowed???

I do know that 20 years ago, growth hormones were SOP in raising steer pool beeves for competition.

Cecil, that's good to know that the fish we purchase and eat are carefully regulated as a food item. I'm impressed and appreciate the information.

What that really means to me is that the aquaculture industry, in the US, is either in its financial infancy or is embryonic. My history as a lobbyist (and bagman)on the state and federal level has left me jaded. Funny how $ can help an elected and/or appointed servant of the people help them understand a position.

The beef and poultry industry don't share that same level. I could quote quite a few examples but Lusk has said stay away from politics here so I'll stop at this point. Send a PM if you want those examples that implicate both the blue and the red.

Of interest is that a cattle feed lot about 10 miles from my place uses tilapia to clean up a "catch" pond downhill from the approximately 40 or so acre lot. Urine and manure runoff create an environmental nightmare for these places and they have to catch it somewhere to cut down on potential pollution to waterways. In the fall, at tilapia die off time, they seine the pond and sell the tilapia to be ground up for fertilizer. At least, I hope thats where they wind up.