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Joined: Apr 2012
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OP
Joined: Apr 2012
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Trying to make it through my first Spring as the proud owner of a 3.5 acre lake--not so proud owner of a good half acre of FA. East Central, MO here. It feels like I've been in a non-stop pond management crash course since last July. Glad I found the forum. I've read agricultural extension publications, untold pages from departments of conservation, etc, etc, and more etc, but there's just no substitute for gettin' your hands dirty with some folks who've been there and done that! Will try to save the little details for the forum, but here's a bit of the big picture. Legacy from Grandpa. Lake is 30+ yrs old. Some intervening years of inadequate management. Dam end is 18', middle section levels up to 12', top section hits 8' and then levels out to 4' and 3'. Smallmouth bass, bluegill and catfish. Many and hearty. A few monster grass carp. It's been at least 25 years since the lake was professionally stocked.(I remember throwing pellet food into the lake as a kid. I was "big man on campus" because I got to row the boat for Grandpa.)The neighbor fished for an hour yesterday morning and caught seven 12" SMB and a "really nice sized bluegill." My 10yo nephew catches fish every time he's here and he's still in the random "cast it and pull it" stage. I'm now trying to do the place justice with proper management. I--had--no--idea--what--I--didn't--know. (Grandpa and I spent countless hours talking about many things, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have asked a whole lot more questions about the lake.) Anyway, here I am and I've got a little knowlege and an endless number of questions. Photos courtesy of the laptop under very cloudy conditions from the back deck.  
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Welcome to the forum glad you found us. We're here to help! There're lots of guys with knowledge in many areas. Interesting your pond has smallmouth bass(SMB) and not largemouth bass(LMB). Was it stocked that way many years ago?
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Joined: Apr 2012
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I really don't know. My grandparents kept receipts for just about everything--a double edged sword--and we are still putting the pieces together.
The family stories, neighbor accounts, and recent pulls have no indication of LMB. I really don't know if they were ever introduced. And, dead serious, I've got a lot to learn about balancing the fish population in this puddle.
I do know that you can see spawning sites from the shore and I can't take the boat out without seeing fry schools in the hundreds. I stop the boat to watch because I am so overwhelmed by the sheer number of fry.
Okay, back to the question...as far as I know there are no LMB. I have no idea if that is intentional, disrupted, or othwerwise. I'm at square one.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Not having LMB can be good or bad, just depends on how you look at it. So what are you seeking help with?
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Joined: Apr 2012
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OP
Joined: Apr 2012
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The FA is a real PITA.
I was overruled last summer and the lake perimeter was pretty much decimated. It was attacked with Shore Klear and a weekly hack and slash. (There's a lot of friendly, but earnest, debate around here over what a pond is supposed to look like.) Anyway, this spring the FA and Chara has just exploded and I can't help but think that the loss of so many higher order plants is playing a role.
Tried manual removal. Wasn't thinking and filled the boat so full of algae and water I had to pull it on shore with the tractor. Seriously ineffective. Sprayed it with liquid chelated copper. If brown mats are better than green, you could say it helped for a week. Then tried the granules. At this point I think it would be easier and just as effective to throw my wallet in the pond and call it a day.
Not a real big fan of constant chemical manipulation to start with. Hoping to find a longer term, more "natural" balance.
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Joined: Apr 2012
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Joined: Apr 2012
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The FA is a real PITA.
I was overruled last summer and the lake perimeter was pretty much decimated. It was attacked with Shore Klear and a weekly hack and slash. (There's a lot of friendly, but earnest, debate around here over what a pond is supposed to look like.) Anyway, this spring the FA and Chara has just exploded and I can't help but think that the loss of so many higher order plants is playing a role.
Tried manual removal. Wasn't thinking and filled the boat so full of algae and water I had to pull it on shore with the tractor. Seriously ineffective. Sprayed it with liquid chelated copper. If brown mats are better than green, you could say it helped for a week. Then tried the granules. At this point I think it would be easier and just as effective to throw my wallet in the pond and call it a day.
Not a real big fan of constant chemical manipulation to start with. Hoping to find a longer term, more "natural" balance.
I'm new, in my third year, fighting the alge battle. I took a page out of my salt water aquarium book and researched ecoprobiotics, treating the water with benefical bacteria to, if not eliminate, seriously limit nutrients in the pond. It's all natural, reacurring in nature, and totally safe to animals. I have used Bacta Pur Pond this spring, following a one time treatment with Bacta Pur Nutripac. I have used 1/2 reccomended doses (the stuff is pricey), twice a month since Mar. and the results are very positive. While it has not totally eliminated both fiborous alge and the surface alge, it has controlled it to a point that it is hardly noticeable. My water clarity is better than ever before and the color is awesome. I'm no expert, and the jury is still out, but you may want to look at this stuff. I don't have the link handy but just google Bacta Pur and you will find it. Good luck,...................Budster
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,534 Likes: 842
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent  Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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FA grows because of nutrients in the water. Vascualr plants use nutrients, and limit the amount of FA IF they are growing before the FA gets started. How many plants? That depends on the nutrient load. Nutrients can come from lawn fertilizer, accumulated organic matter, fish, fish food, etc.
FA can be controlled by a number of ways:
1) Reducing the amount of available nutrients in the pond.
2) Chemicals applied in the correct dosage and timing. (usually every 6 weeks or so)
3) Reducing the amount of sunlight that reaches the pond bottom by either coloring the pond with dye or establishing a photoplankton bloom (better than dye). T
4) Stocking (where legal) Tilapia on an annual basis in a sufficient amount to eat the FA. (I've had success when stocking at the rate of 40# per surface acre)
That is what I know works. I'm not saying that there aren't other ways to do it, that's just going from my experiences.
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Joined: Apr 2012
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OP
Joined: Apr 2012
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Thanks for the great replies!
Have lots of questions about Tilapia. Put in a call to R & S here in MO. (Tracked them down from Rainman's posts here.) Looking forward to talking with them and seeing if it's an option.
Going to work to expand the density of the greenbelt on the nearside of the lake.
Will have to learn more about water lilies. Before they were hit with Shore Klear last summer we had a good 200sqft of them. Not sure if they were a "good" kind or a "bad" kind yet, but they had large round floating pads and white lotus shaped flowers.
Hey Budster, that must be a killer saltwater tank you've got there! Have you looked into vodka dosing at all? If so, has it influenced your approach to using the Bacta Pur?
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Joined: Apr 2012
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Joined: Apr 2012
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Thanks for the great replies!
Hey Budster, that must be a killer saltwater tank you've got there! Have you looked into vodka dosing at all? If so, has it influenced your approach to using the Bacta Pur? I'm not sure I understand the question? The benefical bacteria present in the Bacta-Pur Pond solution are present in a Salt Water Aquarium naturally by the introduction and maintainance of Ocean "Live Rock". "Live Rock" is just what it implies, live with benefical bacteria, the same organisms that keep the Ocean Reefs pure and clean, so in the aquarium they are present naturally. Bacta-Pur provides the same benefits in a form that is added to the pond regularly. I am currently researching the posssibility of creating in the pond the conditions necessary to allow the Bacta-Pur Bacteria to reoccur naturally in the pond, after being seeded with the product. I don't know if this is possible but I will propose it on this forum and see if the experts have any ideas. AS far as dosing Vodka, my aquarium is in the early stages of cycling and I have no live-stock in it yet, thus no reason for addditional Calcium parameters, however I have used it sparingly in my previous Reef with good results....................Budster
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 7
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OP
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I received a reply call about the Tilapia. Apparently, you can't put Tilapia in Missouri water unless they go into an aquarium. Is there any other fish that might be helpful? Did I read somewhere that someone had used Koi?
As far as the vodka, I'm an expert at dosing myself but have zero experience dosing an aquarium. I do know that vodka dosing, or carbon dosing, is used in saltwater aquariums to boost bacterial growth and reduce nitrate and phosphate levels. The same nutrients we want to reduce in our ponds to keep algae under control.
The nitrogen cycle is ubiquitous and the processes are the same in both fresh and salt water. I believe there are different strains of nitrifers and denitrifiers depending on the salinity of the water, but they exist naturally in both. While great numbers of them exist on "live" rock, great numbers of them will also cover every surface in your established aquarium. The same biofilm that will cover your saltwater aquarium will also cover a freshwater aquarium. The nitrogen cycle is present in both, but again the strains of nitrifers and denitrifiers may differ (although they seem to be learning more and more about the little buggers all the time). You could "seed" a freshwater aquarium with a big rock from your pond in the same way you "seed" a saltwater aquarium with live rock. (Most people don't do that, of course, because there are safer ways to get a tank ready for guppies that don't include the possible unwanted introduction of detrimental bugs/parasites. The same reason most people wouldn't pick up a big rock in the ocean and just chuck it into a saltwater aquarium without proper preparation.)
At any rate, after looking at the Bacta-Pur site, I noticed they have a product called Bacta-Pur N3000 which they recommed for both fresh and salt water use (salt water up to 35ppt, right in the standard range of most saltwater aquaria). I didn't research to find out if they pack it with multiple strains of bacteria or if they found a strain that tolerates a wide range of salinity, but according to them, the same bottle has the same effect whether placed in fresh or salt water. And this will apply whether we're talking about aquariums or ponds or seas--it's all a matter of the amount of bacteria required by the nitrogen cycle.
In the end, so long as the necessary nutrients are available in the environment those bacteria will continue to reproduce and sustain themselves.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,534 Likes: 842
Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 28,534 Likes: 842 |
Pete, could you sink an aquarium in your pond? 
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Joined: Apr 2012
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OP
Joined: Apr 2012
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I have four nephews between 4 and 12 years old. If they are not building something they are tearing something apart. Can't keep their hands off a fish tank and they can't stay out of the lake. Frogs, turtles, and fish they catch all need a home at least till the end of the day. You can see where that kind of mischief might lead if you took a little too long resting your eyes after some bbq and a couple beers ....
Last edited by Pete Baxter; 05/01/12 11:42 PM.
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Joined: Apr 2012
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Joined: Apr 2012
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I received a reply call about the Tilapia. Apparently, you can't put Tilapia in Missouri water unless they go into an aquarium. Is there any other fish that might be helpful? Did I read somewhere that someone had used Koi?
As far as the vodka, I'm an expert at dosing myself but have zero experience dosing an aquarium. I do know that vodka dosing, or carbon dosing, is used in saltwater aquariums to boost bacterial growth and reduce nitrate and phosphate levels. The same nutrients we want to reduce in our ponds to keep algae under control.
The nitrogen cycle is ubiquitous and the processes are the same in both fresh and salt water. I believe there are different strains of nitrifers and denitrifiers depending on the salinity of the water, but they exist naturally in both. While great numbers of them exist on "live" rock, great numbers of them will also cover every surface in your established aquarium. The same biofilm that will cover your saltwater aquarium will also cover a freshwater aquarium. The nitrogen cycle is present in both, but again the strains of nitrifers and denitrifiers may differ (although they seem to be learning more and more about the little buggers all the time). You could "seed" a freshwater aquarium with a big rock from your pond in the same way you "seed" a saltwater aquarium with live rock. (Most people don't do that, of course, because there are safer ways to get a tank ready for guppies that don't include the possible unwanted introduction of detrimental bugs/parasites. The same reason most people wouldn't pick up a big rock in the ocean and just chuck it into a saltwater aquarium without proper preparation.)
At any rate, after looking at the Bacta-Pur site, I noticed they have a product called Bacta-Pur N3000 which they recommed for both fresh and salt water use (salt water up to 35ppt, right in the standard range of most saltwater aquaria). I didn't research to find out if they pack it with multiple strains of bacteria or if they found a strain that tolerates a wide range of salinity, but according to them, the same bottle has the same effect whether placed in fresh or salt water. And this will apply whether we're talking about aquariums or ponds or seas--it's all a matter of the amount of bacteria required by the nitrogen cycle.
In the end, so long as the necessary nutrients are available in the environment those bacteria will continue to reproduce and sustain themselves.
After using Bacta Pur this spring the one thing I can tell ya is bad Polish Vodka (the fish don't care) would be a whole lot cheaper than Bacta Pur Pond!.....Budster
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[quote=Pete Baxter] (Most people don't do that, of course, because there are safer ways to get a tank ready for guppies that don't include the possible unwanted introduction of detrimental bugs/parasites. The same reason most people wouldn't pick up a big rock in the ocean and just chuck it into a saltwater aquarium without proper preparation.)
That is in fact what people do to start the cycling process in a salt water aquarium eco-system. With proper circulation, temperature, salinity, and bio-load the system will over time develop the chemistry necessary to maintain safe levels, 0 ppm, on all critical parameters, Throw in a little Carbon (bad Polish Vodka) and a good protien skimmer, one can maintain 0 ppm across the board while controling PH balance as well, all from a piece of rock thrown in from the Ocean, including the "hitch hikers" both wanted and unwanted, although I probably don't have to tell you this, from your post above I would guess that you have probably "been there and done that".....Budster
Last edited by budster; 05/02/12 10:25 AM.
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Budster, I didn't mean to offend you. There's certainly lots I don't know.
Please note, I said most people don't use live rock without "proper preparation." The live rock people buy from their saltwater supplier has been cured and prepared for introduction to saltwater aquaria. You are right, their are certainly hitchhikers that make it through the curing and preparation process, but without it there would be many more.
You are also right that people can pick up a rock from the ocean and just throw it in their tank. It's certainly not the recommended practice.
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Joined: Apr 2012
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Pete: Don't mis-understand, you didn't offend me at all, I just didn't know where you were coming from, and still don't. Do you have hands on Salt Water knowledge? or are you speaking from an intellectual point of view, not that it really matters, it's just that until one manages a "Reef" they really don't understand the complexity. Any way like I said it doesn't matter, this is about ponds not Reefs and they surely has their complexity too.......Budster
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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Moderator Hall of Fame 2014 Lunker
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OK:.....................What's the point?................I'm not sure of the connection, my pictures clearly show my "pondweed" is not FA...........Am I missing something?.............Budster
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Joined: Apr 2012
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OOPS: I'm easily confused when I get into too many threads! Must be the old brains!
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