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#28993 02/10/06 09:41 AM
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The question is will redear sunfish (RES) eat/thrive on artificial feed/pellets. The usual response ( not mine) is no. Read this (which I have had for a while but withheld so as not to start a :rolleyes: ). Since it was brought up by Bob (We seined a pond which covers about a quarter-acre... and we caught 40-50 feed trained redear that didn't appreciate the coolness,.... ) in his report of Bruce's seining party, now is a good time.
-------------------------------------------------

Potential Feed Conversion of Redear Sunfish Fed Nutritionally Complete Formulated Diets
S. Bradford Cook and G. Don Scurlock Jr.

Department of Biology, Tennessee Technological University Cookeville, Tennessee 38505, USA

Abstract.—Intensive culture of redear sunfish Lepomis microlophus has been difficult because these fish do not readily accept formulated diets. Many fish culturists have continued to raise redear sunfish in ponds on formulated diets, but it is uncertain whether the fish are effectively using the provided feed or the feed is simply adding nutrients to the pond. We examined the feed conversion, relative condition, and body composition of redear sunfish fingerlings fed three nutritionally complete commercial formulated diets in recirculating-water, biofiltered aquaculture systems. Redear sunfish accepted all three diets after an initial training period of 3 weeks. Increases in total length and weight were noted for all three diets; however, condition factors only increased for fish fed two of the diets. Proximate body composition appeared to be related to composition and particle size of the diets. Feed conversion ratios for fish fed one of the diets were similar to those reported for hybrid sunfish (bluegill L. macrochirus × green sunfish L. cyanellus). Redear sunfish feed conversion ratios were higher than those reported for channel catfish Ictalurus punctatus or Mozambique tilapia Oreochromis mossambicus but were similar to those for rainbow trout Oncorhynchus mykiss and common carp Cyprinus carpio.

Received: October 15, 1996; Accepted: July 18, 1997

Two things seem clear 1) small RES will eat pellets and do well and 2)Bruce's RES continue to eat feed to adulthood and do well. New food for thought !! \:D
















#28994 02/10/06 10:16 AM
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Notice that 2 of the 3 diets worked and they aren't saying which.

#28995 02/10/06 10:43 AM
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Dave :

The study has the info (not by brand as that makes no difference)but by its composition. Not hiding anything there. I will dig out and post. What is interesting is the results were as good or better than HBG ,CC and m.tilapia .
















#28996 02/10/06 11:51 AM
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This topic has got me thinking of keeping some RES indoors to train and experiment with, possibly through all of next Winter, in a Condello Po'Boy RAS (CPBR). I can get sufficient numbers of small RES fingerlings (3/4" to maybe 3") for this purpose out of my pond from Summer seinings. I can (fingers crossed) catch larger juveniles (last year, 4" - 6") via line & hook infrequently later on in the year.

Questions for Bruce and general discussion:

1) If one were to put small RES in a CPBR, what size would be optimum for feed training?

2) How much time should one allow for indiviual RES to "learn" to eat pellets? I wouldn't want to lose any larger RES juveniles by holding them indoors too late in the Fall/Winter to safely return them to the pond if they don't "get" pelleted feed.

3) Do you think floating or sinking feed would work best? Obviously you would be able to observe the % utilization of either type in an indoor CPBR.

4) Other than basic crowding issues, does anyone have an idea if a combined number of RES and BG would be harder to keep together than an equal number of either species separately? I have the space and almost all the equipment for one CPBR in the basement, but would be hard pressed to find space (or spousal consent, for that matter) for a second one. I really want to feed some BG through next Winter and see what growth they can achieve in near room temp water (and to just be able to see my fish daily all Winter). I am perfectly willing to kill some BG on my first trail, but am reluctant to subject many RES (especially larger ones) to an equivalent risk due to their lower numbers in the pond.

Perhaps I should try training some small RES fingerlings (and maybe BG as well) starting mid-Summer. If I could get some RES feed trained before the point of no return, they would at least be assured of being able to eat all Winter. Does that sound plausible?


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
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#28997 02/10/06 12:59 PM
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Theo :

One inch , 3 weeks, 90 days , sinking pellets. You can do this see mail!!!! \:D


Here is some info. In error I stated that the brands were not listed , they are. Note that all 3 worked as length and wt. increased but that K slightly decreased for one brand.


Fish fed all three diets increased in total length
and weight (Table 1). Condition factors increased
for those fish fed Biodiet Starter number 3 and
Zeigler Salmon Starter number 4 but slightly decreased
when fed Fry Feed Kyowa B-250 (Table
1). Feed conversion ratios for redear sunfish
ranged from 1.33, for the Zeigler diet, to 3.28 for
the Biodiet (Table 1).


TABLE 1.—Mean feed conversion ratios (FCR 5 weight
of food fed/weight gained) and changes in total length
(TL), weight (W), and condition factor (K 5 105[W]/
[TL]3) for redear sunfish fed three different commercial
diets in 50-d feeding trials. Values in parentheses are SDs.
Variable
Biodiet
Starter
number 3
Fry Feed
Kyowa B-250
Zeigler Salmon
Starter
number 4
FCR 3.28 (1.42) 3.21 (1.78) 1.33 (0.69)
TL (mm)
Initial
Final
Difference
61.67 (4.12)
69.22 (5.07)
7.56 (4.03)
64.33 (2.92)
73.67 (4.27)
9.33 (3.54)
61.11 (4.37)
77.44 (7.68)
16.33 (5.10)
W (g)
Initial
Final
Difference
3.11 (0.60)
4.57 (1.22)
1.46 (1.08)
4.02 (0.90)
5.84 (1.24)
1.82 (1.24)
3.34 (1.06)
7.91 (3.03)
4.57 (2.48)
K
Initial
Final
Difference
1.32 (0.20)
1.35 (0.14)
0.02 (0.18)
1.49 (0.21)
1.44 (0.12)
20.04 (0.25)
1.45 (0.31)
1.63 (0.16)
0.18 (0.31)
















#28998 02/10/06 10:49 PM
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Here's how my redears came into being.

A wealthy landowner that I know had a huge garden pond, but no interest in fish or fishing. What he did have was a ton of snails in his pond. He asked me if I knew of any fish that utilized snails and I advised him to try redears. He proceeded to purchase from one of those traveling fish caravans about 300 RES. His snail problem disappeared in about fifteen seconds.

Since the redears had nothing to eat I told him to buy some Purina game fish chow. About 75 of the redears thought this was a good idea and proceeded to outgrow the garden pond. The "pond" is about 10,000 gallons.

After the redears became too dense he asked me if he could just throw the fish into an area lake. I, of course, told him that this was an illegal practice.

Somehow the fish then found their way to my pond for babysitting. He delivered them in the dark of night.

These redears now silently wait...preparing for the right moment to rise up and take over the world!! Mothers, watch you children. The time will come when no one or no thing will be safe from their wrath!

There are those who feel this story is just a myth...a story told for generations over campfires by boyscout leaders trying to strike fear in scouts gathered 'round the fire. \:\( But just when you think it's all just a story--just empty words....a shadow sneaks up behind you! A slightly downturned mouth and pectoral fins the size of a vultures wings!

Be oh so careful. You know not the day or the hour..........


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#28999 02/10/06 11:16 PM
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MY GOODNESS IN ADDITION TO CANNIBAL YP AND CONDELLO STRAIN TOOTHED BG WE NOW HAVE VULTURE PEC-WINGED RES. THIS SOUNDS LIKE A HORROR MOVIE!!! \:D \:D :p
















#29000 02/11/06 05:56 AM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by ewest:
MY GOODNESS IN ADDITION TO CANNIBAL YP AND CONDELLO STRAIN TOOTHED BG WE NOW HAVE VULTURE PEC-WINGED RES. THIS SOUNDS LIKE A HORROR MOVIE!!! \:D \:D :p
Ya, a CHEESY movie, in the vein of "Snakehead", "Gator", and "Skeeter". You yell "DON'T GO IN THE WATER!!! But they always go in the water anyway...

#29001 02/11/06 08:38 AM
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NIGHT OF THE LIVING REDEARS

Starring Christopher Lee and Jamie Lee Curtis
with Dennis Hopper as "Dr. Frankenbruce"

Directed by George Romero

See one man's attempt to save the world from snails go horribly awry. See hundreds of hungry giant Lepomis microlophus storm the Purina Corporation's annual stockholders' meeting. See a madman torn between his love of a beautiful woman and his love of a bunch of fish.

Do to it's extremely graphic nature, absolutely no one will be admitted during the French Restaurant scene in the closing 10 minutes of the film.

Rated "R" for Redears (and pirates!)


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
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#29002 02/11/06 09:19 AM
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\:D \:D \:D LOL

Who gets to be the stunt doubles that go into the water with the terrible trio -- YP subs.- cannibal, BG subs.- Condello & RES subs.- vulture pec-winged. \:D
















#29003 02/11/06 09:39 AM
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Feed trained fish...fun stuff. Here's my experience training untrained soon to be feed trained fish. Several species of fish readily come to feed in a pond. Goldfish, koi, bluegill, fathead minnows and golden shiners readily come to feed in a pond. Aquaculturists "teach" catfish to feed in troughs, as fry, before releasing. But, those fish are easy.
The next level are fish that must be trained inside, in tanks. Yellow perch are pretty easy, and bass can be. But, the culturist starts off by "tricking" young fish into eating what's presented. In order to do that, our fish person uses the fish's instincts against it. For example, teaching bass to eat is often a matter of presenting a mixture of feeds, starting with krill, then mixing krill with earthworms, then mixing a paste of earthworms into tiny pelleted feed, then adjusting the ratios of palatable, soft food to pellets. A certain percentage of fish adjust to this Pavlov dog's conditioning. Another 'secret' to this process is frequency of feeding and density numbers of fish. The more fish, the better they feed, as long as water is kept clean. Then, there's the next level, the most difficult to train. Those are crappie and redear sunfish, to name two. These fish need intense attention, and of these two species, crappie are easiest. I watched one tank of crappie, a 5,000 gallon round, recirculating tank. Around 1,500 crappie, 2.5-3" long, were electrofished from a 90 acre lake and brought indoors. It took a month of presenting chopped earthworms to these fish to begin to entice them to eat any pellets. Less than half the fish finally became feed trained, and the still are, to this day. Here it is, almost a year later, and these fish are pushing 10" in length. Redear, on the other hand, are tough...real tough. One recirculating system I saw had big biofilters, with a solids settling chamber in front of filtering media. Inside the media, snails showed up, and developed a thick population. The enterprising culturist brought in some redear, and began feeding snails from the filters into the redear tank. Redear chomped down. Then, the culturist mixed some tiny pellets with each batch of snails. These redear snubbed the pellets, ate the snails. So, the culturist threw some snails into a blender (don't tell his wife)and frappe'd them into a paste, which he rolled into the small pellets (coated with vegetable oil). Some of the redear were tricked. Out of 500 redear, about 50 finally became feed trained. Too much work for a commercial fish hatchery. No profit.


Teach a man to grow fish...
He can teach to catch fish...
#29004 02/11/06 09:55 AM
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As our mentor Bob, suggested in his message above, one of several "tricks" to teaching fish to eat pellets is to start teaching them at a small size. A size when they are switching / converting from eating zooplankton to feeding on other forms of larger foods. This is the most commonly used method or technique, esp by commercial growers. Since most commericial growers do it this way, I am assuming it has the highest, reliable, percentage of success.


aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management
#29005 02/11/06 10:33 AM
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Theo,

Really funny post! \:D

The real version of the story is that the landowner started with a lot more than 300 fish, and eventually brought me all of his bigger ones. Definitely feed trained, but these bigger ones were still finding some natural feeds i.e. insects landing on the water like grasshoppers and the infrequent snail here and there. I didn't realize it but he had brought me a couple of smaller fish as well. They actually probably varied from 5 to 8.5 inches and were in pretty good condition. I'm going to dedicate one of my lined ponds to age-1 RES this year and see if I can get some to turn to pellets. I haven't quite decided on the methodology. I'll probably start in a rubbermaid tank and use Bob's suggestions.

If I remember correctly at least two of the fish appeared to have bluegill genetics, which wouldn't be shocking considering the original source.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#29006 02/11/06 10:45 AM
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Theo and Bruce :

Think about each of you doing a similar rubbermaid RES project based on the study data (and any other info to be found) and see the results ; then co-write a PB article on the project.
















#29007 02/11/06 10:53 AM
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I'm in, provided Theo promises to do the mouth measuring. ;\)


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#29008 02/11/06 10:55 AM
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We could decide who gets top billing by wrist-wrestling, seeing who can spit the farthest, and extemporaneous dirty limericks, best two out of three gets their name first. \:D

Bruce:

Do you know how big the 300 RES were when they started getting Purina Game Fish Chow?


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#29009 02/11/06 11:05 AM
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Average 2.5 inches. Purchased in March of 2004 @ age-1.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#29010 02/11/06 01:02 PM
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Bruce wrote: "These redears now silently wait...preparing for the right moment to rise up and take over the world!! Mothers, watch you children. The time will come when no one or no thing will be safe from their wrath!"

Why are these fish so bitter??!

Did the previous owner verbally berate them on a regular basis?


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#29011 02/11/06 04:15 PM
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I will look for more info for your joint endeavor in hopes it will help the effort.

\:\)
















#29012 02/11/06 04:20 PM
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Quote from Theo: Perhaps I should try training some small RES fingerlings (and maybe BG as well) starting mid-Summer. If I could get some RES feed trained before the point of no return, they would at least be assured of being able to eat all Winter. Does that sound plausible?

Very plausible. Nobody every learned anything without risking failure. I'm going to try to get Lusk's method of gradual acclimation to work for me. I think I've been needing another hobby, and chopping up nightcrawlers and mixing with pellets sounds like a good one.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#29013 02/11/06 04:30 PM
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Read the data -- you may not need alt. methods if you have the right food and time. I have grown RES on pellets in the aquarium with no problems just not 300 at a time. If you do not have the info email me.
















#29014 02/11/06 04:38 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Sunil:

Why are these fish so bitter??!

Did the previous owner verbally berate them on a regular basis? [/QB]
Redear sunfish are bitter, irritable, sometimes cynical. They were treated fine by the previous owner. It's just part of their nature.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
#29015 02/11/06 04:49 PM
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Condello:
Nobody every learned anything without risking failure. I'm going to try to get Lusk's method of gradual acclimation to work for me. I think I've been needing another hobby, and chopping up nightcrawlers and mixing with pellets sounds like a good one.
Does your wife have a food processor? Buy a brand new one. Try them both out mincing and mixing worms and feed pellets to see which one works best. Give the other one back to your wife. Dirty.

Now THAT's risking failure! \:D
________________________

I'm leaning towards trying pellets, crushing to make them smaller as needed. If I use seined RES fingerlings in mid-Summer, I can get them in the 2"-3" range (can't catch sunfish much bigger than 3" with my seine/technique; not sure I can ID RES smaller than about 2") which should give them a chance, but that's crunch time wrt being busy making hay. I'll leave the mincing to Bruce (who could probably have Igor the "dental hygenist" do the work and then write off the labor ;\) ).

It should be interesting to keep track of the similarities and differences between the two trials. Might give some info on which approach works best (or just show Ohio Redears are smarter than ones in Nebraska or vice versa).


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#29016 02/11/06 06:40 PM
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"It's just part of their nature."

That's pretty scary, Bruce, especially when you consider all the people who have RES in their ponds. All these RES must be on the verge of bloody revolution at the drop of a hat. The unwary pond owner could be in for a rude awakening, as well as the potential to be the subject of a poor "Made for TV" movie.


Excerpt from Robert Crais' "The Monkey's Raincoat:"
"She took another microscopic bite of her sandwich, then pushed it away. Maybe she absorbed nutrients from her surroundings."

#29017 02/11/06 07:20 PM
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Good one, Theo. Bruce may lose some pearly whites if he trys the food processor deal.
I am on the verge of thinking about maybe, possibly embarking on the idea of developing a snail shaped and colored sinking pellet with dried worms as a part of the protein source.
What do ya'll think? Bruce, can I borrow your processor?


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