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#282761 - 03/04/12 12:12 PM Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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in the same body of water. Note the markings of the one crappie that is untypical on top vs. the other one below it here:



Here is a different crappie with the same markings next to a couple of white perch caught at the same time:





If I didn't know any better I'd swear they seem to be hybridizing. However considering they are of a completely different genus, let only species, I seriously doubt it.

Why would these totally different species resemble each other in markings? Some type of parallel adaptation to the environment? Or could these be white crappies (or natural hybrid crappies) but of a darker coloration than typical due to tannin stained waters. I do note the top fish had a much longer area in front of the dorsal fins vs. the definite black below it. This is one of the identifying characteristics of white crappies. Or perhaps just a natural coloration/markings mutation?

Thoughts?


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (03/04/12 12:29 PM)
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#282766 - 03/04/12 02:45 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Cecil Baird1]
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I don't know what to say. The Pectoral and Caudal fins are both more rounded than in either of the other 2 species. As of right now, with the information on hand, I'd say mutation of a BC.

What state were they caught?
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#282769 - 03/04/12 03:22 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: esshup]
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Originally Posted By: esshup
I don't know what to say. The Pectoral and Caudal fins are both more rounded than in either of the other 2 species. As of right now, with the information on hand, I'd say mutation of a BC.

What state were they caught?


Poster didn't say but I will ask. I'll bet anything it's Maine due to the presence of white perch and the ice conditions on the date of the photo, which aren't anything like that elsewhere where their are white perch.
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#282797 - 03/04/12 09:12 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Cecil Baird1]
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Could be confusing to southerners. Often White perch and white crappie are the same fish even though they are really different.

Parallel adaptation to the environment would be my guess. They look to different to me.
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#282803 - 03/04/12 10:04 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: ewest]
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Interesting Cecil...

White perch have always been a popular panfish here in VA where they are native. They are found in a lot of our reservoirs as well, as landlocked populations. I have never caught a crappie that had those markings. Crappies are not native to my part of VA but are very common, especially black crappies.

The white perch run will be starting here in a couple weeks. By the end of the month the "jumbos" will show up. Most guys consider white perch over 12" or 1 pound to be jumbos. They spend the winter in the deeper parts of the Chesapeake Bay and then migrate up the coastal rivers to spawn near the fall line of the rivers. They usually spawn just after the striped bass in generally the same areas.

I have heard of white perch hybridizing with the other temperate bass species(striped, white and yellow bass) but never with crappies. White perch and crappies do spawn at about the same water temperature but in very different manners.

It's a shame white perch appear to be wrecking many Midwest fisheries.
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#282853 - 03/05/12 10:20 AM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: CJBS2003]
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From several sources – note all of these are in the same family – Morone (Moronidae). Intra Family hybridization is common while inter Family hybridization in very uncommon.

White Perch, Morone americana -- Similar species: Striped bass (Morone saxatilis) ,White bass (Morone chrysops)

Striped bass hybridizes naturally with white bass (M. chrysops) = HSB

Morone Americana hybrid Morone saxatilis - Morone americana x M. saxatilis

Common name: white perch x striped bass

Identification: Kerby (1979); Setzler et al. (1980); Page and Burr (1991)

Native Range: None; artificial hybrid

Family Moronidae—temperate basses
Morone americana—white perch (A-F)
Morone chrysops—white bass (F)
Morone mississippiensis—yellow bass (F)
Morone saxatilis—striped bass (A-F)


m- Morone americana × f - M. saxatilis - hybrid—Virginia bass
f -Morone americana × m - M. saxatilis - hybrid—Maryland bass
f -Morone chrysops × m - M. saxatilis - hybrid—sunshine bass
m -Morone chrysops × f - M. saxatilis - hybrid—palmetto bass
m- Morone mississippiensis × f - M. saxatilis - hybrid—paradise bass








Edited by ewest (03/05/12 10:31 AM)
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#282991 - 03/06/12 03:10 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: ewest]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Thanks for the feedback guys.

One of my local biologists is puzzled as he's never seen crappies that look like that.

BTW Scott, they were caught in Maine just as I suspected.

It would be neat to do an DNA analysis of the what appears to be an untypical crappie, and although I bet I could get a specimen, I wouldn't want to pay for it.

I'm hoping Dr. Willis will see this and weigh in.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (03/06/12 03:12 PM)
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#283016 - 03/06/12 08:25 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Bruce Condello Offline
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I would say that is a White crappie X flier hybrid.

This is what a flier looks like.


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#283017 - 03/06/12 08:35 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Bruce Condello]
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Actually, a flier is likely a mutation of a crappie from thousands, or tens of thousands of years ago, so another similar mutation isn't out of the realm of possibility. It has to happen sometime...so why not now? smile I think it's very plausible that Cecil's fish are crappie mutations.


Edited by Bruce Condello (03/06/12 08:49 PM)
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#283020 - 03/06/12 09:29 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Bruce Condello]
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Bruce,

Yeah who's to say that mutations that lead to branch off aren't occurring right now.

As far as a flier/crappie hybrid in Maine it's very unlikely as there are no fliers there.
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#283047 - 03/06/12 11:18 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Cecil Baird1]
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The farthest north fliers are found in the east is the Potomac River drainage(MD/VA). I have caught them out of one lake in PA, so they have been introduced elsewhere further north. I stocked several into the pond behind my house. Trying to learn more about them. They seem to thrive in acidic waters.
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#283052 - 03/06/12 11:42 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: CJBS2003]
Bruce Condello Offline
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Fliers are used as aquarium fish. Perhaps someone released one in the spring. Stranger things have happened.
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#283058 - 03/07/12 01:00 AM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Bruce Condello]
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Funny you say that Bruce, I've got two in one of my aquariums now. They make very interesting aquarium fish. Not sure how well they would handle extremely cold regions though with them not being native north of the Mason-Dixon Line.
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#283066 - 03/07/12 08:24 AM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: CJBS2003]
Bruce Condello Offline
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All the parent fish would have to do is make it from release...say mid-April, to spawn, say early May, to be able to reproduce. If the progeny had 1/2 WC genetics, they should easily make it through winter. Bluegill/Redear hybrids over-winter just fine.
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#283078 - 03/07/12 09:22 AM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Bruce Condello]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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The original poster of the pictures says there are no white crappies in his area.
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#283080 - 03/07/12 09:25 AM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Bruce Condello Offline
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Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
The original poster of the pictures says there are no white crappies in his area.


There are now...

Just kidding. smirk wink grin
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#283083 - 03/07/12 09:36 AM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Bruce Condello]
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This should help from Near et al.


TEMPO OF HYBRID INVIABILITY IN CENTRARCHID FISHES by DANIEL I. BOLNICK AND THOMAS J. NEAR :


" The only crosses with total inviability in
both directions are M. salmoides 3 (Ambloplites rupestrus,
Pomoxis annularis, or Pomoxis nigromaculatus) at 28.94 million
years, while 10 other crosses of that age have some
viability in one or both reciprocal directions (see online Appendix).
Centrarchids also retain nonzero viability and heterosis
for much longer than most other taxa."













Edited by ewest (03/07/12 09:52 AM)
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#283111 - 03/07/12 01:26 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: ewest]
Bruce Condello Offline
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I looks to me like there would be the same genetic dissimilarity of WC X Flier as BC X Flier. Interesting.
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#283114 - 03/07/12 01:44 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Bruce Condello]
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Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
I looks to me like there would be the same genetic dissimilarity of WC X Flier as BC X Flier. Interesting.


...and by that I mean if a flier can hybridize with a white crappie, it should hybridize with a black crappie. Let me make it completely clear that I'm not suggesting that I know for certain that this is a flier X crappie hybrid. I'm just trying to establish plausibility. It may be mostly self-justification, because when I first saw Cecil's photos, my first reaction was "That's a dang flier!" smile

I think that there are probably infinitely more instances where a fish has a single chromosomal mutation that results in the loss of a single chromatophore.


Edited by Bruce Condello (03/07/12 01:55 PM)
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#283117 - 03/07/12 02:39 PM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: Bruce Condello]
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Not much doubt that a flier and a WC or BC can cross. The Near et al article is proof of that as the only cross with total inviability is LMB with crappie (both) or Rock Bass.
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#283349 - 03/09/12 04:12 AM Re: Striking resemblence of crappies to white perch [Re: ewest]
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I wish I had a picture of the WC x flier cross that was captured in a fyke net I was helping pull. There were a few fisheries biologists there and they were all leaning towards the hybrid. It was not an overly larger fish, maybe 6". Remember, fliers are not big fish themselves, I big one is 8" and a giant is 12".
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