Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose RES x BG hybrid feed trainable?

So, in about a year and a half I am going to be making a pond on some land that I just bought. The pond will probably be 1/2 to 1 acre. I want to concentrate mainly on sunfish (the bigger the better) and I want everything in the pond to accept feed.

Long story short, if anyone has any experience with Redear Sunfish x Bluegill (RES x BG) hybrids and if they accept feed I would love to hear from you.

My interest in RES x BG hybrids is the size so, if anyone has any other species suggestions for a small trophy sunfish pond that can be fed pellet feed your advice would be appreciated as well.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave:

I think that if you stock both BG and RES, you will get some natural hybridization in the pond. I know of no source to buy that hybrid.

I think that they might become habituated to pellets in your pond. I have some RES that eat sinking pellets in my pond.

RES can be feed trained. It is just not as easy as BG. I have some RES in one pond that eat pellets right along with the BG. There are several threads here on both RES X BG and feed training RES.

Thanks both of you for your fast replies. They were both encouraging.

I had not though about how I would acquire the hybrids too much. I knew it might be hard to find them and that I may have to try and sex RES and BG (only one sec of each type in the pond) to try and force the first generation to become hybrids.

Perhaps stocking 100 of each RES and BG would be a good idea so that the RES could both learn from the BG and have the change to naturally hybridize?

I have a large number of BG x RES hybrids, and although I have never observed them feeding on the surface, I did have two last year that had stomachs full of pellets, discovered upon filleting. Perhaps they still continue to feed at or near the bottom, in spite of the hybridization.

What other species will be present in the pond, and are you looking for a self-sustaining population?

I was thinking that I might put a couple of HSB (in favor of LMB since they won't breed) in to keep the population in check without having to worry about keeping the bass population in check. Some (not a ton) baitfish but probably after the sunfish are hungry enough to learn how to eat pellets. I was hoping that with (heavy) pellet supplementation I wouldn't have to worry about maintaining a heavy baitfish population.

HSB may be hard pressed to control your BG population, as they readily take artificial feed also. Lots on here regarding that very subject, and forage training HSB.

Pretty sure TJ's were scarfing down pellets. He had a small repo pond designated for male BG and female RES only.

So, HSB prefer pellet feed even when there is an abundance of live food for them? I did not factor in the HSB being too lazy to eat the small sunfish hah.

How difficult do you think it would be to cull the sunfish manually with bait traps? I would prefer to not have to manage too many species in the pond as my real goal is only large sunfish.

Consider Male only bluegill for this trophy pellet fed pond. Would grow huge sunfish, no worries about trying to get fish to hybridize (or have to wait for them to hybridize) no worries about pellet training RES, etc. Just simply bring in new male bluegill whenever you have easy access to them, sounds like a fun project. Then you could put a handful of hybrid stripers in for variety.

I have a reproduction pond dedicated to raising BG/RES hybrids the last two years. Year one had minimal success as a female BG slipped in from another pond and I was having a hard time making positive ID on YOY BG and hybrids. Last year I had much more success, but am waiting until Spring to seine because I neglected to stay on top of vegetation issues and it prevented good collection efforts this Fall. I remain hopeful though as during net sampling I was finding hundreds of YOY BG/RES in a few swipes. Not sure if they will have survived the winter or not. I have kept it largely ice free and full of flowing water to hopefully mitigate the mortality rate. I think mortality on fish that size isn't so much about temps, but lack of forage. This year I think my collective experience should prove to yield another strong crop of SMB and finally BG/RES hybrids. If you stock Male BG and Female RES they will hybridize and create one cool fish. I love them.

Someone has to mention it......

DMRBG, have you considered Hybrid Bluegills?

(I assume you mean GSF x BG hybrid) I've seen a lot of hate on the boards and other forums about these guys. I wasn't really considering them because only a hand full of people seem to like them and my understanding is that they do not get as big as the RES x BG hybrid that I've been hoping to breed eventually. I see you have a little something about them in your forum tag so I'm assuming that you like them. Do you work with them often and what would you say their benefits over a RES x BG hybrid would be (I'm guessing availability; is there anything else?)

Thanks,
Dave

I can see I'm gonna' be late for work this morning..

HBG have got to be one of the most misused, misrepresented, and misunderstood, (at least by the general public), fish out there. I have one of my ponds dedicated to this fish, and I will share what little I know.

First, the term "large" means different things to different people, and can be relevant to one's location. What is your idea of a large panfish? You might be hard pressed to find a HBG over 2 lbs, while a pure strain BG can exceed that, and a RES obviously can too. A RES x BG hybrid? I don't know what one is capable of topping out at.
I have had mine for almost three years now, and most of my catches weigh over a pound, with a pound and a quarter being my largest thus far. My goal was to get them to a pound and a half, which should be relatively easy to attain. Mine are stocked with LMB, and a few RES.

The advantages of a HBG, as I perceive them:

Predominantly male, greatly reduced chance of overpopulation and stunting.
A large mouth allows them to forage on a greater size of natural prey, INCLUDING, their own offspring... I have witnessed this many times. This reduces competition for the available food sources, while providing an immediate boost to the fish that consumed the offspring... a one two punch.

They grow very quick for the first couple of years, faster than RES or BG. Their growth slows after that time, allowing BG to overtake them, growth wise.

They are tremendous fighters, stronger than a comparably sized BG.

As you stated, they are readily available.

When it comes to RES x BG hybrids, my knowledge is limited to those I catch in my other ponds. And I have caught some large ones, although none that weighed more than my largest hybrids. To be fair, I have only started supplemental feeding those fish last year, so time will tell what can be achieved.

You've probably already seen this but here is more info:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256325#Post256325

I'm curious, what are your expectations of a RES x BG hybrid?

I think they have their place in a pond.

1) for a pond where you will be feeding, and want a good sunfish pond without the problems associated with trying to control BG/CNBG populations.

2) for a pond where kids will be fishing. Easier to get to a larger size in the first few years than BG, easily restocked. Large mouths make for biting on larger baits. larger baits are easier for kids to fish with.

For ponds where you won't be feeding, the fish density won't be as high, and they won't grow as quick as in ponds where they are fed.

Yeah, you've got a long commute! They calling for snow or rain down your way tonight?

I hope I didn't make you late for work. Your input has been greatly appreciated. One of my fears for Hybrid GSF x BG is that they will become more like GFS and less like BG after a couple of generations.

My goals/expectations with a RES x BG hybrid pond would be to have a sunfish hybrid where both parent species are (in my opinion) desirable; this way if after generations of breeding RES or BG genetics take over more than the other the resulting fish will still be one that I would like to have. I also expect/hoping the resulting hybrid to grow fast and hopefully attain a final size closer to the RES than a BG can. I am also hoping that if I am feeding the pond heavily with pellet food the fish that will reach breeding size the fastest and most reliably will be the ones that take the food which would hopefully influence the pellet feeding nature of the offspring.

Its probably a crazy experiment in trying to reliably get 2+ lb sunfish that will gorge them selves on feed and grow fast.

Whew, barely made it. Had to cover that 50 yds at a brisk walk, but I think I'll recover in an hour or two.

Rain and snow possible tonight, lows in the mid thirties so shouldn't be too bad...

Ah, so you are hoping for a reproducing population of potentially trophy panfish, that can complicate things somewhat, but I wouldn't consider it outright impossible.

It would eliminate an all male BG pond, as well as a HBG pond from the running, however. Male BG obviously won't reproduce, and I personally think HBG should be managed in such an environment that what reproduction that does occur is eliminated shortly thereafter. Although, there are a few individuals claiming success with F2's and F3's as viable fish in their own right.

Growing HBG as a self sustaining population is one of the most common reasons for disappointment on the part of the pond owner, in my opinion, and the primary reason for the negativity often encountered where this fish is concerned.

What is the smallest pond/pool that you think sunfish will breed in? I could make a small breeding pond/pool where I hand select MBG and FRES to breed. Then, seine out the babies or transplant the fertilized eggs after breeding and put them in the larger grow out pond. This would eliminate the problem of availability for the RES x BG hybrids and also create a playground for me to experiment with.

I know that they'll spawn in a 1/10 ac pond, and probably would spawn in a bathtub if given the right conditions.

I'll bet they'd spawn in a 50 gallon aquarium!

I agree with Scott. I would also advise against trying to transplant fertilized eggs, I can't imagine that would be successful.

Seining out the young hybrids is your best bet.

That is encouraging. I'll nix the egg transplanting idea and try to build on the breeding pool idea. Perhaps something like a 12 ft dia 15 inch high kids pool with a sandy/gravel bottom for 3 or 4 of each species. Once hatched, remove the parents (to prevent cannibalism) and feed the babies with brine shrimp until large enough to accept small feed. Then transplant into grow out pond.

Something like a modified version of this; It even says sunfish in the name.
http://www.amazon.com/Intex-Sun-Fish-Sna...536&sr=8-81

All males the same species all females the other species.

Correct.

Should have added in the spawning pool.

are the RES X BG mostly male like the typical HBG w/ GSF X

I placed kiddie pools with road grade gravel in 24-36" depth and the BG/RES spawned on them last year. I don't think the bed installation is necessary, but it enabled me to monitor their behavior easier against the light colored gravel background as opposed to dark clay bottom. I used four pools 4.5' in diameter: 3 pools had one nest, 1 pool had two.

Yes. HYBRIDIZATION OF FISHES IN NORTH AMERICA
(FAMILY CENTRARCHIDAE)
by

W.F. CHILDERS
Illinois Natural History Survey
Urbana, Illinois
U.S.A.

In this paper R refers to red-ear sunfish, B to bluegill, G to green sunfish, and W to warmouth.

4.1 Sex Ratios of F1 hybrids
Sexually mature F1 hybrids were collected from each population and sexed. Of the 10 kinds of viable F1 hybrids, seven were predominately males (RB, BR, and BG were 97 percent males; WG were 84 percent males; and RG, GB, and BW were approximately 70 percent males), two were approximately 50 percent males (GR and RW), and one was predominately female (GW was 16 percent males). Ricker (1948) determined the sex of 428 BR F1 hybrids in Indiana and found them to be 97.7 percent males.




Small ( 8 inch) plastic or clay saucers that go under potted plants filled with small gravel will work well.

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the difference btw RB and BR? One is F RES and M BG and other is inverse? If so, anyone have experience with M RES and F BG hybrid? What are differences btw it and our standard hybrid F RES M BG? An ice cold diet pepsi at the conference for anyone who cares to enlighten me.

They are reciprocal crosses.

Here are the sex ratios (percent male) that Childers got with various hybrid crosses. The male parent is listed first. There is some variation in the numbers from other studies

Redear X Bluegill 97 (3) = mRES X fBG = RB
Bluegill X Redear 97 = mBG X fRES = BR
Redear X Green 69
Green X Redear 48
Bluegill X Green 97
Green X Bluegill 68 (2)
Redear X Warmouth 55
Bluegill X Warmouth 69 (2)
Green X Warmouth 16
Warmouth X Green 84

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthread...=true#Post22131

Bluegill and most other sunfish are colonial nesters, constructing nests in densely packed aggregations (Gross and MacMillan 1981). Different species, i.e., bluegill and redear sunfish, can frequently be found nesting together in the same colony (Childers 1967).

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=119087&fpart=1

HYBRID SUNFISH FOR STOCKING SMALL PONDS
WILLIAM E. RICKER
Indiana University, Bloomington, Indiana

Wawasee Hatchery. Area--0.32 acre. This pond
was stocked in April 1942 with 10-15 male bluegills and an equal
number of female redears. There were apparently two principal
spawning times, which produced fish of two size groups distinct
enough to be followed through the season.

Male bluegills and female redears were put into a pond in early
spring, and the resulting spawning was at least. reasonably successful.
The number of fingerlings obtained (46,000) was said, however, to be
less than what is usually recovered from the reproduction of either of
the parent species, by itself, in a similar pond. These fish were subsequently
distributed into a number of waters.

From - http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=150932&page=1

Thanks Eric - I had not encountered anything RE the RB hybrids as everything I'd read on the forum thus far had been dedicated to BR hybrids. Of course it makes sense this cross can happen, I was just never exposed to it. I wonder if the RB and BR hybrid express any different traits? From a reproduction standpoint apparently there is no difference [97% males] - but that also leaves me with another question:

According to what I've read - female BG lay significantly more eggs than RES. Female BG are also willing to spawn multiple times/year whereas RES apparently spawn 1x annually, at least in our Northern bows. Combine these two elements and could one expect that RB hybrids would far outnumber BR hybrids in a one year pond by experiment? If one is trying to raise RB/BR hybrids, the RB would be a more attractive choice due to sheer QTY of offspring. Any thoughts?

These are very interesting questions and observations that I too would like to find the answers too. I have been planning my pond under the possibly false assumption that since the male RES are more brightly colored than the the male BG it would could have an impact on the female's BG's willingness to cross breed and this I was planning to go with female RES and male BG.

Until someone with more expertise chimes in I can at least say from experience that its' safe going the old school route of M BG and F RES.

Just bumping this thread to see if TJ (or anyone) can enlighten us anymore on the development of RESxBG.

Both species spawn multiple times per year. Redear cease spawning earlier. The pattern holds in both pond and tank settings. Apparent spawning frequency based on cohorts is not something I put much wei9ght in after seeing how some cohorts can outright fail from things like weather events. Larval Redear are a little easier in my setting to rear on formulated feeds. They appear slightly more robust at first feeding even though total length similar. I have made the F1 Redear(female) x Northern Bluegill (male) many times with thousands of fry produced each time where breeding is done in tank setting (1,200 to 2,000 gallons) where everything can be seen. Pond spawning I have done easy giving similar results to what is reported in the literature. The reciprocal Northern Bluegill (female) x Redear(male) has also leaked through when female Bluegill are given choice between male Bluegill and male Redear, but has not been produced in large numbers despite many situations where hybridization was possible in a more confined setting (75-gallon aquariums). Hybridization was not a function of female choice, rather cuckoldery on the part of male Redear.

About a decade back, a student and I affixed some red(stuff from Hobby Lobby) to opercular tabs of a couple male Bluegill. Those males were known studs to female Bluegill until the red was added. Mating success resumed when red fell off. Males flashed a lot in effort to dislodge the irritating red adornments.

Interesting stuff Jim. I wondered if any pond fish "flashed". See it regularly with certain species of ocean fish, I assume to rid themselves of parasites. Watched a permit eating sand and flushing through the gills yesterday for 10 minutes, I assume to rid gill parasites.

I have threatened to take my wifes camera into the pond to try and capture some pond fish behavior (get her in there? Yeah, right). I did do some Gopro videos of BG and RES males guarding nests a couple years ago. But there is something about climing into water with 2' visability that is not enticing. My ponds only get clear enough to get decent pictures a couple times a year, and the water is usually cold at those times.......brrrrrrr.

If memory serves, every type of fish I have studied will flash at least occasionally. At least some Bluegill will serve as cleaner fish on other Bluegill when anchor worm involved.

Filming part is fun, but yes visibility can be a problem. I use a GoPro and a camcorder with underwater housing. Former is much newer and more flexible.

What dictates the timing of the spawn when done in indoor tanks? Is it the water temp? Considering working with Bruce and his tanks to create several broods and then move to grow out pond. Interesting.

Cook book recipe I follow is 16 hours full light and 6 hours with night light where temperature is in the mid 70's F. Spawns in tank can be realized year round in that setup if nutrition. Refractory period a little longer than with Bluegill of similar size.

Any tips on how to create the proper plankton bloom in an indoor tank for survival of larval BG? Or tips in general for getting other species of new fry to survive in larger indoor tank.

It takes a short period (under 30 days) of what Jim noted for a complete cycle to occur and BG , RES , GSF etc. to spawn.

I have not had good luck recreating a plankton bloom.

With most sunfishes of the genus Lepomis, I use freshly hatched brine shrimp (BS) as the sole food for the first 14 days after they swim up. After 14 days they are co-fed powdered feed and BS until 21 days when everything is going very well and up to 28 days when higher survival desired. Below is most recent and relevant article to Redear rearing.

http://afs.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15222055.2012.675987#.WjglZ1WnGUk

Procedure below is more practical to rearing sunfish in general using limited resources. See page 14 for larval rearing. I use this procedure at home frequently.

http://www.nanfa.org/ac/spawning-raising-bantam-sunfish.pdf

Both very interesting Jim.

Surprising to me that the RES grew faster than the BG.

The RES and BG were ran in same culture system but different trials. Additionally, both species where each represented by a single full-sibling brood. Either of those factors make comparisons between species based on that publication weak at best. Subsequent trials where both species were represented by co-mingled broods are consistent with RES have more rapid growth indoors in tanks fed diets formulated for trout. In pond settings, results not as consistent. RES in ponds are less consistent feeders under conditions most people have.

That would be my observation in my small sediment pond where the BG competed with the RES. Floating feed was fed but the BG went gangbusters compared to the RES.

Interesting to know though that if conditions are correct for growth, the RES have the potential for rapid growth.

Great input all around. This is the type of info I was hoping to read when I bumped this thread.

I think you've hit on a key point John when you point out competition as a major factor. I read an article written by Dr. Willis along the same lines but it was BG and PS. He suggested that PS were more effective at controlling snails, and their associated parasites, when placed in competition with those bully BG for other forage. I followed that suggestion and stocked PS and BG together. My pond went from a heavy snail infestation to almost none and my PS are in the 7 to 8 inch size which I believe is above average for PS but I never see the PS at feeding time. The PS found their niche with little competition for the snails they are thriving. I suspect the RES in your RES only pond will grow faster and larger without the BG competition for the pellets.

Are you still interested in culturing plankton to rear larval sunfish? Procedure differs markedly from use of hatched BS, but it can be easier so long as you keep number of fish down to levels that will not over graze zooplankton.

Absolutely. A bit hesitant to put money into it and fail as so many others I’ve talked to have done. I’m not sure I have the fundamental knowledge to make it work at this time. Still trying to educate myself on relevant matters.

My assumption is you are looking to rear a small number, less than 100?

A couple aquariums or very large jars can be used to rear phytoplankton.

What kind of resources do you have?

I have access to a 1200 gallon tank, filter, etc for breeding purposes and for raising the the BGxRES to a point weather would allow me to release them in a 550 sq ft micro pond. I’d try to raise as many as that space would allow.

What kind of control do you have over temperature and lighting? What kind of filtration?


Since a first try I would keep the number under 1,000. Can you be called this evening?

PM sent.