Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss Feedback on Greenhouse Construction

As I expand my fish inventory and would like to use aquaponics to utilize my fish waste water I'm pretty sure I want to build a green house similar to the following one. It's from the book Small Scale Aquaculture by Dr. Steve Van Gorder. My warmwater fish would be in tanks however vs. an in ground tank as in the picture.



The highest point of my property is very similar to the dimensions in the the book 40 by 18, and faces due South which would be optimum for a Greenhouse.



Anyone build anything like this? Any thoughts or advice? It looks quite simple and straight forward to me.

Cecil, you're a freaking mad scientist! Love it!

A few questions Cecil if you don't mind. I have a few presumption on your location already, and may have some suggestion on the greenhouse updates from Dr. Van Gorder's design:

1. Since you are in a cold climate zone, any incorporation of heating solar panel for passive water warming purposes?

2. Since you're doing above-ground tanks rather than in-ground basins, which is great for cleaning and detecting leaks, are you using insulation for the tanks to minimize heat loss?

3. Any pre-solid filtration of waste before recovering liquid biological waste water for usage? assuming you're using it for aquaculturing of plants for fish habitat and human consumption?

4. What is the holding time of the water without pathogenic and bacterial treatment, either by passive (using sunlight) or active (electrical/gas heating elements and/or UV) boiling process?

We've done this project back in 1997 at UCR, attempting to enhance a process that was done back in 1992 to 1994 during the Gulf War in reclaiming waste water as reusable water for vehicles, secondary waste flushing water, dust suppression, and best of all, reclaimable drinking water (from light dish washing and oasis water that is).

Just some thought off the top of my head. If you have above ground fish tanks you may want to insulate the bottom, back and sides, and paint the front flat black for passive heat absorbsion directly to the water. A masonry back wall painted black and insulated on the back side for heat retention and even a floor like that would help.

Then in the summer you would need good ventilation and some blinds/shading over your glazing/window/plastic to keep the heat down.
I once made a 4'x 8' solar panel that was not glazed, as an experiment. It was self circulating water to a 5 gallon insulated bucket. It was summer time but the water got to 185 degrees. If it had been glazed or double glazed the temp would have been even higher. So summer cooling is also important.

A good book I have is "The Solar Greenhouse Book" James C. McCullagh.

From a climate standpoint we are pretty different. Or at least usually are. I've had a couple of greenhouses. Temp control is vital and on a cold but sunny winter day it got too hot. John is certainly right about venting and shading. The challenge is keeping everything in the right temp ranges. You can't assume a whole lot on these things.

BTW, I don't want another one.

Cecil, a friend's wife has a couple of greenhouses on the property and runs a small nursery. Their biggest problem is keeping the place cool enough. Theirs are the domed plastic type of greenhouse. Yes, they run thru about 1,000 gallons of propane in the Spring getting the plants started if it's a cold spring, but by far their biggest problem is heat.

That'll be an even bigger problem for you with the trout.

They whitewash the whole structure every year just to try and block some of the sun starting around the end of May.

Just make sure you have a large enough fan/air exchange system in place to keep the temps down in the summer.

Cecil,
I'm currently on my way to the WVU Research farm that does that on a big scale. You need to find a way to come visit us.

These days we are recommending "hoop houses." They are cheaper than greenhouses. And, at least in this area, a greenhouse is taxable because it is considered a permanent structure, and a hoop house is considered a temporary structure -- like a tent.

Ken

Or a yurt

My friends greenhouses are those "hoop" style that Ken is talking about. They use a visqueen type material that is gauranteed for either 5 or 7 years. It's stood up to some amazing wind events.

Ken, you heeding the Doc's advice?

Actually more mad than scientist Leo, although I try and think like a scientist.







Not at this point, but I am open to ideas. Not sure about using solar to heat water but I've considered if for producing my own power. My dream is to produce my own power for all my home and business needs on the property using solar and wind.

I believe if I have enough water in tanks in the greenhouse they will stabilize night time cooling in the winter by acting as a heat sink. I was also told by a poster from the Phillipines that goes by the name of Pugo, on the Aquaponics headquarters, that placing black barrels filled with water inside against the back wall would make a difference too. (Same heat sink idea.)I have successfully removed iron by connecting two barrels and a utube siphon and filtration material to be used as make up water. I don't see why the black barrels couldn't be for the dual purpose of a heat sink and make up water with the iron filtered out.




I would most certainly be using wrap around insulation on the tanks. Possibly covering the in the winter if necessary as in similar to this picture sent to me by Dr. VanGorder (who btw will be doing some consulting for me).






Absolutely. I haven't decided on which type of mechanical filter I want to use but it could be anything from a simple upflow filter which I use now to a rotating drum filter. The water most certainly will be used for plants. If at all possible I want zero discharge.




I shoot for an exchange of at least 2 X per hour for my fish tanks that I presently have. I'm a keep it simple stupid guy (KISS principal) and prefer to stay away from things that make a system more complicated and increase the power signature such as UV, Ozone, and pure oxygen. However UV probably would be an easy addition if I deemed it necessary.




Interesting Leo. It's good to have someone on the site that has this kind of experience and depth you do. (We have others here too.) You can only enhance the Pond Boss website!

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Definitely good ideas. I already insulate my tanks in the basement to cut down on the amount of heating required.



Yes I have thought about ways to reverse heating in the summer and venting. The greenhouse above does have vents but they appear to be very rudimentary.



I'll have to check the book out. I love books!

Thanks for the info Dave.

The trout won't be in the greenhouse. Only plants and warmwater fish. I will be building a separate building for the coldwater species farther down the property (close to the power pole in the aerial photo on the east side just above the big pond.)

The green house comes first and the pole building a couple of years down the road once I harvest and sell my next crop of trout.

How do they whitewash the dome in the summer? White plastic?

Ken good points. Perhaps a very viable option. One thing that could be a problem is the back edge of the property would be an ideal north wall for the the above greenhouse for a permanent structure. Only problem is, I may have to to be a minimum distance of 10 feet for a permanent structure from a property line. That may not apply to a structure like this though as no permit is required for storage buildings and I could classify it as a storage building by storing items in it which I plan on doing. I need to check but I doubt my neighbors would care as I have good relations with them.

I would like to come out to the WV facility this year. I hear funding is being cut. I sure hope it sticks around.

Cecil, they use watered down latex for a whitewash paint or a "whitewash" paint that is formulated for greenhouse use. They apply the paint directly to the plastic. (exterior) By the next year, it's off of the plastic and they have to do it again. The movement of the plastic, coupled with the freeze/thaw cycles degrades the whitewash. It seems to magically disappear. There are no traces of it on the ground around the greenhouses.

Dr. Ken Semmens was here today from Morgantown and I had lunch with him. He said come on over anytime. We are having our annual West Virginia Aquaculture Association workshops on March 3 in Morgantown. Dr. Ken said if you wanted to come over on March 2, he'd show you what he is doing in that area on late Friday afternoon. We'll have lots of good food. I think I'm doing some of it. The research farm (and me) are about 3 hours east of there. We could go to the farm on Sunday or Monday. We've got room for you and your wife, or Scott, or Wild Bill, etc. to stay here.

Ken,

Thank you for the generous offer -- even the possum stew and road kill! Just kidding!

I'll have to see what's on the calendar. Lots of work to get caught up on (I've been slacking all winter), and only one family vehicle could make it a problem, but I still might be able to work it out.

I was actually thinking of working in a visit with a summer vacation. I have a sister that lives in southeast Kentucky which would be part of the trip.

Wow that's fascinating. Definitely an option!

The hoop houses are more economical in the short and long run. Like it has been said, no property taxes either.

As for your pole barn.

A thought to consider:
My plan is to use multiple smaller buildings that I do not need concrete foundations and are not classified as permanent structures for property tax purposes, so that limits me to 200 sq ft. Nice thing is, I can put in two 1200 gallon systems in one small building and have excellent environmental control including photoperiod manipulation. About 6K for the whole shot including the Slave Control (if you DIY) The only other building is going to be a 16 x 24 x 12 as a hatchery room with a partial loft. This will have the Master control for the whole operation.

The way I figure. You want to achieve a goal. Cash can be tight at times. If you do it in smaller, more manageable chunks that can be productive and "PAID" for, that is icing on the cake. Economy of scale, as far as specialized hatching and raising of fish, is a pure Myth!

At least, that is the way I think. I crunched so many numbers on this for years, and this scenario works out well for me to the one that I would invest in! But that is me!

If it all goes down the drain, I'll have a lot of little cabins to rent out to the "Party Tuber's" hitting the Muskegon River

That's been my mode of operation for some time. Mostly because I don't have a lot of cash laying around, and secondly I refuse to go in debt to a bank or investor. I've seen too many businesses that had bank bean counters breathing down their necks wanting to know when they will start making a profit -- Never mind most business don't right off the bat.

Thanks for the advice. Makes a lot of sense.

I originally bought my small farm with the idea of having a passive solar house. I found the perfect place with a small woods with large trees and a south field adjoining the woods for a clear shot of the sun. The house would be placed where my present house is now, back about 100 feet in the woods facing south. In the summer time the leaves from the tree would shade the large glass of the house keeping the house cool and when the leaves fell the sun would hit the windows heating the house. A massive masonry fire place with the sun shining on it would be a heat sink in winter. Insulated blinds would help keep the heat from escaping at night. For extra cooling in the summer large vents would be open at the bottom of the south windows and air would flow up two stories to large vents at the top to create and chimney cooling effect in the whole house. The woods would supply any extra wood heat needed. It cost too much money to make the dream work but I did get a nice piece of property.

John, I think I've spent my life with neat ideas that couldn't be financially justified.

Sometimes it's better not to be able to do what you want financially at first. At least that is my experience. It gives you a chance to mull over the details and perhaps find it was not the best option anyway.

Everyone in aquauculture that I know of says they would have set up their infrastructure differently if they knew what they know now.

It pays to be slow and broke at times

I sure am glad I never did what I was going to do. I would really be broke!!!

Sorry to get back to you Cecil. Been hectic on the last few days. Families and friends visiting, with work load got crazy all of a sudden.



Nah..being a scientist, you are required to be insane. Being a mad scientist means you're thinking with all your brain cylinders firing. I've reached that insanity level, and went way beyond it. You're good where you're at now.



In cooler climate, it's great to have as much insulation and warming methods as possible. As other have mentioned, wrap insulation above ground is a lot easier than dealing with below ground. Painting the tank may be an issue, since now you're conducting more heat without a chance to cool down the water during summer properly. If you can do an insert of a black painted wall around the inside/outside of the tank, that can be of benefit. Simply remove during the summer time to prevent the retention of heat. Active cooling will be needed by simply running the water using a simple 12V garden sump pump (designed for water fountains) that can be powered by a solar power array. Not that expensive to set up. Have the water run through a series of copper pipes that sit in the cool area or a cold water bath. It can even be lined to run through one of the near by pond to use that water as a passive cooling method, but you will need a stronger pump due to the required head and return pressure. Make sure the solar panel is sufficiently receive the necessary light for winter period before you plan on using the passive heating method.


The removable panels for the green house is a must to generate cooling cycles going through the area. At the same time, it require shading to prevent the tanks from heating up due to direct exposure to sunlight. The hoop house is a great idea in a warm environmental conditions. We have tons of them here. In cold climates where snow tend to pile onto of the structures, I'm not too sure. Not many hoop houses are used during winter in the mountainous regions. I still see them being used starting in late spring to the late fall before first snow fall. They get covered by a more solid structure (4 wooden columns follow by a slanted wood/aluminum covering). City's and county's official here allow that during cold seasons to save small residential/commercial plants/crops within the hoop houses. Not sure if you can do the same over there.

And Dr. VanGorder, the man himself, will do the consulting?! WOW! You are a lucky man for him to be that close to you..if that's not the case, you sure have a massive budget for distant travels *LOL*




You know that most pathogens and bacterial can be killed very easily heating up to 140°F, using a passive aluminum water steaming process during summer time. The Europeans utilize the rain water collected in barrels, siphon the water up to the roof top's stainless steel and aluminum rectangular steam filtration box, which heat the water, releasing the cooled steam to the collecting chamber, and down to the drinking water supply. Same method we use for the desert water recirculation process. In your case, I'm not certain how much water is coming for the usages, and how much is being used on a constant process due to plants'/fish's biological processes.




This is why I'm so interested at this website. There is such a huge collection of info here that actually help me to work with the local developers in producing effective man-made lakes around new commercial, industrial, residential, and parks with aquacultures. I can't help them with the "ninja" and "raiders" that come onto the properties to drop lines in catching the fish.

Leo,

Thanks for the info. Always appreciated!

My consulting with VanGorder probably won't have to be on site. I have enough familiarity with a lot of the physical systems and my dad retired from an electrical related industry. He's also experienced with concrete if any pouring needs to be done. Any building that I can't do myself can be done my very reasonable Amish crews in the area we have a working relationship with.

What I am looking for is mass balance calculations, sizing and any other technical information that are above my pay grade that PHD's are comfortable with. I will probably be using an RBC like this of which I've built two smaller ones already.

(Picture courtesy of Dr. VanGorder)



For the trout most likely RBC for bio, RDF for mechanical (the trout need really clean water and settling isn't enough), and circular tanks which are self cleaning.

I can probably get by via settling tanks for the other species with settling tanks like this.

(Also courtesy of Dr. VanGorder)