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Leo, a quick search on e-bay showed Betaine anhydrous, Reagent 98%, 100g $44.99 in Japan.

Is there a more economical source in the States?

Is 2g per 1/2 tsp about right?


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Not sure if this forum allows me to post compounds to initiate aggressive behaviors for feeding. Bruce?! Dave? Ewest? Moderators? If I get the go ahead, I would be glad to post on the attractant compounds with dosage sizes.

However, you're smacked on about the look, smell, and tastes. Salt and fish oil is the primary trigger to smell. Texture of chitin, proteins, amino acids, and salt cause the temporary lockjaw for consumption to prevent engulfment. Attractants cause the initiation and reinitiation of primary and secondary strikes, while allowing jaw muscle relaxation during the process.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Leo, a quick search on e-bay showed Betaine anhydrous, Reagent 98%, 100g $44.99 in Japan.

Is there a more economical source in the States?

Is 2g per 1/2 tsp about right?


Esshup, careful about buying anhydrous betaine off ebay. You may get a load of caffeine that looks like betaine, which can be detrimental to the fishes.

As for the reagent at 98%, of 100g at $45, you're talking about the 5M concentration at purity. Pretty strong stuff. You only need less than 0.5g to initiate a massive response. You only need the common 2M concentration, which cost about $10 to $15 per 100g. Another name for the compound you can find is called trimethylglycine. That may bring up a better deal for you.

As for teaspoon to gram, it's roughly 4.6g to 5.3g to 1tspn, based on density of the material you're measuring. So, yes..about 2g is about there for the basic 2M concentration of betaine.


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Thanks. So then something like this might work as well?


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Leo, I know of no reason that the site would bar any idea/bait/idea or voodoo concoction that would help us catch fish. My Daughters once barred the Grandkids from going around the outdoor area where I was seasoning my catfish blood bait and secret sauce concoctions.

On the catfish thread I was mainly referring to those who like to rise catfish large enough to identify, adopt and give names to. In other words, their long term health.

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Originally Posted By: Dave Davidson1
Leo, I know of no reason that the site would bar any idea/bait/idea or voodoo concoction that would help us catch fish.


I agree with DD1 -- post ahead Leo.

E try TMG search
















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Originally Posted By: esshup
Thanks. So then something like this might work as well?


WOW! 1kg? You must be doing some major brewing there esshup. I don't know the concentration just based on the mother's site info and the eBay description. I would say it's between the concentration of 0.5M to 1.5M, without them saying for sure. Human consumption is also ranged at that level. The warning posted is of 0.5M to 1M level. 5M, the warning is even more alarming printouts.

Now, if you're planing to use betaine that you get from this seller, please, start with 1/2tspn. SLOWLY induce more each time if the real concentration is indeed of the 0.5M to 1.5M. 1/4tsp a time in each experimental. Remember, a little goes a long way!


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Alrighty, I might get flocked by the bait industries for this, but, hey..all is fair in love and free info. From basic to more compound advancement. Remember, these ingredients were and still are in used by quite a bit of bait makers, pellet manufacturers, and of course, the DYI bodies:

* Liver Powder/Paste: not just good in French sandwiches, but also attract the living daylight out of the fishes. When an injured fish of small sizes bleed, guess what, the hormone secret the fight or flight released by the liver get pumped through the blood. Big fishes smell, follow, and gobble gobble.

* Ground anchovy/krill (whole and dried), krill meal, and small dried shrimp meal: Necessity starts from the smaller creatures. You guys feed them baitfish ground, such as freshwater shads and minnows. Great. But do you know that freshwater fish has a higher affinity to saltwater creatures? Why do you think bait company and pellet manufacturer load salty content as part of the ingredients?

* SALT: too much, not good..stick creatures from the salt like the ones above. 1 cup of olive oil soaked in ground anchovy OR ground krill/shrimp, with 3tbspns of garlic, will yield a potent attractant that will lure the most stubborn fish out of hidden during warm seasons.

* Fresh ground kelp, or in this case, kelp powder: yep..not only it contain macro and micro nutrients that the fish looks for, but also it contain various trace of attractant, such as betaine. Some company over process the kelp during powderizing phases that it caused the original kelp to lose most of the nutrients and attraction ability. I normally go to the Asian store, grab a nice bag of dried kelp leaves,go home, put in the juice extractor machine or a very powerful blender, and ground the living daylight out of the dried leaves. You can incorporate the rehydrated version of the leaves into the ground moist foods for your fish during pellet making.

Now, for a bit more complex compounds:

Shell fish extracts: normally in form of oil after processing stages. Do not purchase the oils that contains decaying shellfish tissues. The oil will drive away the fish.

Animal tissue extracts: Same as shell fish extracts, which containing amino acids, betaine, inosine, organic acids dimethyl-B-propiothetin and amino nitrogen. I do this through methods of distillation in my garage, and when I can, The Lab. Let's just say the smell can be obnoxious, but the results will be femme fatale attractions to fishes.

Common responding agents to integrate: alkaline and neutral substances such as glycine (the betaine/trimethylglycine), proline, taurine, valine.

Aspartic and glutamic acids: It's found in plants that fish seek out for refuge. It's an auto-reponse compound found in nature that fishes tend to detect, observe, shelter, then forage. If no structure is found, they forage before search for the next shelter point. I also notice that turpenes and turpenoids at low level (derived from an experiment which I use to pine sap to create a non-impaling livebaits approach and local DFG Christmas tree dumped into the water to create habitats) attract fish quite quickly. Fishes will use the structures producing the turpenes and turpenoids within a week.

Amino acids proven to initiate gustatory system response: Proline (Pro), alanine (Ala), leucine (Leu), 2-amino-3-guanidinopropionic acid (Agp), and once again, betaine (Bet). High concentration of these amino acids initiate violent feeding, or feeding frenzy. Extremely high concentration create lockjaw after initial feeding without secondary re-initiation of feeding.

Okay..I'm boring you guys. Have fun deciphering what I just wrote.


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A bunch of information for sure, thanks...

I found the below on a Carp fishing/ pellet site. They add these to attract carp, keep them feeding....I assume it would work for most pellet trained fish as well....Some you mentioned as well...your thoughts on these? ...


1. Casein
Casein is the main protein in milk. It can be used to make baits high in protein. It comes as a dry ingredient.
The major benefit to using casein in your bait is it has a good smell which will attract carp to eat food containing casein. It can also be good for binding together other ingredients in the bait.

2. Calcium Caseinate
This ingredient is brilliant all-rounder for making baits with. It usually makes up a third of the boilie mix and therefore provides the bait with good protein levels. It gives bait a good taste and has plenty of attractive smells to leak out in the water. It also, has some decent binding properties, and it provides some nutrition for carp.

3. White Fish Meal
White fish meal is another top ingredient when making boilies. It contains threonine and phenylalanine, both are essential nutrients. White fish meal has good attraction properties; both smell and taste. This is why it can be a good all-year round bait.

4. Anchovy
Anchovy included bait mixes creates a great flavour for high attraction properties. It also provides some nutrition towards carp’s diet.

5. Robin Red
This is one of the top ingredients to include in any bait. It has accounted for numerous big carp captures over the years. It has excellent attraction properties, including a high smell and a taste carp would die for!
Robin Red is an incredibly successful ingredient made from a blend of bird food, peppers and spices. It is bright red and will most colour baits deep red. It is an attractant in its own right but its vitamin content also makes it a valuable food source, especially when added to protein mixes.




6. Liver Powder/Paste
This can be a fantastic additive to include any bait making mixture. The enzyme treated powder can be very effective for attracting carp, plus they love the taste of anything liver-based. Plus it is packed full of nutrients that carp require every day. Liver powder is a very successful meaty fishing bait additive that most fresh water fish love. Use it in your paste or boilie mixes at a rate of up to 30g per 1kg of bait, or sprinkle into your groundbait or maggots for added attraction. Can be made into a paste by adding water or for an effective bait dip.

7. Minamino
One of the best bait making ingredients you can use. One tip I found was not to use it prior to boiling the baits. Instead, use 20ml/pound as a soak during drying stages.

8. Semolina
Semolina is made from wheat, it’s cheap, and can be used as the main ingredient in making boilies. Semolina along with soya flour can work as a binding ingredient when making boilies. They can also carry flavours very well so they’re good for attraction purposes and contain some good nutrition for carp. Full fat semolina, which is yellow, contains higher nutritional values for carp.

9. Egg Albumin
Egg albumin is a fantastic binding agent for use in making boilies. It also provides carp with high nutritional value.

10. Betaine
Betaine is a highly soluble crystal extracted from sugar beet molasses during sugar production. It has long been recognized as a primary feeding stimulant by fish farmers as it improves the fish's appetite and the rate of digestion and absorption of nutrients. By applying Betaine to your fishing bait you will not only attract more fish but will improve its food value as well. This is perfect for when you are regularly fishing a water as the fish will come to realize that your bait is good for them and will actively look for it. Mix in with any bait, but do so sparingly as this is powerful stuff.

11. Yeast Extract Powder
A fine powder that is highly nutritious with a particularly high vitamin content. It is an extremely good binder and can be used to hold groundbaits together or to act as a binder in boilie mixes. The yeast is deactivated so that you can use it to fairly high levels without your baits suddenly fermenting and going off. If you are using a CSL based product it is an excellent addition. CSL contains small amounts of natural yeast so adding more yeast will just boost the power of CSL even higher.

12. Kelp Powder
Kelp powder is an incredibly successful fishing bait ingredient made from seaweed. It is loaded with the vitamins and minerals that fish love. It naturally contains the fish attractant Betaine so it will really pull fish into your swim. Use it in your boilie and paste mixes at a rate of 20g per 1kg of bait.


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I soaked some pellet sized chunks of brown foam in the fish oil vitamin liquid. It looked perfect. Even when I was feeding they stayed away from it.


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DD1, fish oil, unless purified from decaying matters, it's considered as gastatory suppressant. Similar to when you ground composting worms into it mix, you get response from cats (which feed on decaying matters), but carps and other fishes, they will run far way from it.

beastman, you're dead on about the ingredient for carps. They are primarily vegetarian, but they have a higher protein affinity than that of the bass, trout, and gill that I've experimented over the year. A bit into the insights:

Egg albumin, semolina, minamino, calcium caseinate, and casein are binding agents, also providing protein-loading. They can be left as a moist or soil version, and when induced with a bit of heat, they will form a "cake" harden, with trapped aerated protein, allowing the so called boilies to float. Look into the bags dog and cat foods. Same principle applies for a high aeration to the food pellets during extrusion. The harden pellets, containing high proteins, support pet's growth in according the formulas, but also clean their teeth without heavy deposits in the gum line. It's one of the discovered side effects.

Kelp powder (long been discovered by the Asians), yeast extract powder (vitamins noted by the breweries), robin red (noted by the UK carp's association), white fish meal (filler more than a food source), and liver powder (blood particles contain iron and flight/fight hormones..see the 2nd post from the top about dried animal blood cell in the ingredients), all experimented on different levels. Remember, these are just ingredients for attractants and feeds. There is no specific set recipe for every known species. This is where tailoring of recipes comes in.

Ready for the fun?


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Leo, that seller had different quantities, that's just the one that I grabbed. The fish in my pond aren't that wild about the pellets. Maybe because of the natural food, or maybe because they were never pellet trained.

Thanks for the warning, it will be heeded!


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esshup, if you need me to work with you to get a formulation down for the pellets, let me know. However, the attractant combo that you're using with the pellets may be enough to motivate them to eat. If even at high concentration they're unwilling to feed on the pellets, that mean there may be plenty of natural food source that they're preferring over the pellets. If that's the case, we may have to do some formulation method to train them.

By chance esshup, are you feeding the pellets for your own private stock or are you experimenting them for some other purposes? Just want to know so I don't give you advices to over fattening them too fast due to overeating habit.


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Leo, if a person had access to an extruder, what would be your secret recipe for a bluegill and/ or a yellow perch pellet? Do you have a recipe? And thanks for the clarification on the mercury situation. I was at the Texas coast, and was at a fish market.They made it sound like the smooth skinned fish were almost "toxic for human consumption". I try real hard not to be scared of the boogie man.:)

Back to the pellet. There's a feed company local to here that can extrude is why I ask. Would be interesting to try. Thanks for joining the forums!


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James, if you do have an access to one, HOLY MOTHER OF PELLETS! I would love to provide you with some recipes, as well as experimental recipes. Bruce and the pond masters would love to be part of your inner circle to try it out.

Before I start filling your head with recipes of sorts, please, ask the person who has the extruder these questions:

1. Does the machine only take dry grounded form for pellet creation or does the machine has an oven plate/moisture extractor to remove liquid during the compression process?

2. Can the machine maintain moist form of pellets for extruding processes?

3. What pellet forms can the machine produce, such as elongated cylindrical, short cylindrical, or spherical?

4. What is the compression rate does the machine has through its auger?

Just want to know what the recipe will come out correctly. If the machine removes too much liquid, which the recipe calls for moist condition, it defeats the purpose. We may have to rely on different approach to infuse macro and micro nutrients via dried form rather than liquid form. Attractants are much more effective when it's moderate released in the water by incorporating into the moist pellets. Dry form is a bit less effective, unless the fish get trained.


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I will call tomorrow!


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So if you were only going to fish a spot that uses pellets for a few days would any of these ingredients be worth adding to the normal pellets? Fishing for hybrid striped bass.

Does adding the below create an instant feeding freenzy or does it take time to develop over days/weeks? Note: The fish are already trained on the normal pellets, and has decent fishing pressure so the fish are very hook-smart. I'm just thinking if I can add something to these pellets to make them worry less about getting hooked....

Amino acids proven to initiate gustatory system response: Proline (Pro), alanine (Ala), leucine (Leu), 2-amino-3-guanidinopropionic acid (Agp), and once again, betaine (Bet). High concentration of these amino acids initiate violent feeding, or feeding frenzy. Extremely high concentration create lockjaw after initial feeding without secondary re-initiation of feeding.


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Thanks Leo. I'm feeding AM500/600 to the fisn in my own pond. I stocked feed trained LMB last year, and they feed well on the pellets, as do the trout that were stocked in October. The BG were sourced from a local lake, and they are the ones that are very tentative about eating the pellets. They were like that before stocking the feed trained LMB (meaning tht they were not bullied away from the food by other fish).

I use a battery powered directional feeder, and feed at the same time every day. There are BG in the pond from YOY to 10"+. Those BG have been in the pond for 5-6 years and have never been agressive pellet eaters

Last edited by esshup; 02/09/12 10:33 AM. Reason: more info on the BG

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Originally Posted By: beastman
So if you were only going to fish a spot that uses pellets for a few days would any of these ingredients be worth adding to the normal pellets? Fishing for hybrid striped bass.

Does adding the below create an instant feeding freenzy or does it take time to develop over days/weeks? Note: The fish are already trained on the normal pellets, and has decent fishing pressure so the fish are very hook-smart. I'm just thinking if I can add something to these pellets to make them worry less about getting hooked....

Amino acids proven to initiate gustatory system response: Proline (Pro), alanine (Ala), leucine (Leu), 2-amino-3-guanidinopropionic acid (Agp), and once again, betaine (Bet). High concentration of these amino acids initiate violent feeding, or feeding frenzy. Extremely high concentration create lockjaw after initial feeding without secondary re-initiation of feeding.



If your striped bass have been trained to feed on pellets, then it's be extremely effective to add the additional ingredients. But that's cheating?! LOL If they are not trained to feed on pellets, then the floating compounds from the pellets will attract them like a free buffet dinner bell.

Since you fish have been trained, and hook shy, it will encourage them to feed without thinking. However, as you indicated, it may take a day or two, or even up to one week for them to reprogram their minds. The reason is, if they're getting their meals constantly, they're not worry about going hungry. If they have forage materials readily for additional feeding, they will shy away from feeding in a zone where hooks may be lurking. However, feeding in the zone where you'll be dropping hooks later, while tempting them to go into feeding frenzy now, they will reprogram themselves very quickly. Imagine kids that like the cookies on the kitchen counter go against all your warnings not to touch the cookies, even though they know they will get spanked if they do touch the cookies. The kids will grab the cookies anyway, and if caught, they are willing to get the punishment due to the cookies are so good and enticing. Fish and human mindset are of the same caliber.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
I use a battery powered directional feeder, and feed at the same time every day. There are BG in the pond from YOY to 10"+. Those BG have been in the pond for 5-6 years and have never been agressive pellet eaters


Scott, if your BG have been in the pond that long, and not being aggressive to feed on pellets, two things come to mind. Either the BG have plenty of forage materials, or they are out fed by the other groups. If the new formulation and attractants are added, the other groups may still be more aggressive than the BG. If that's the case, you may need to shift your feeding supplement to something more natural based on the time of year. Cheap mealworms, waxies, and crickets perhalf?


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Originally Posted By: Leo Nguyen
Scott, if your BG have been in the pond that long, and not being aggressive to feed on pellets, two things come to mind. Either the BG have plenty of forage materials, or they are out fed by the other groups. If the new formulation and attractants are added, the other groups may still be more aggressive than the BG. If that's the case, you may need to shift your feeding supplement to something more natural based on the time of year. Cheap mealworms, waxies, and crickets perhalf?


Leo, I think it's more of the former rather than the latter. There are still pellets floating around after the LMB are full. If I feed straight AM500, the LMB aren't as interested and leave enven more pellets uneaten. I can see BG swimming around pecking at the pellets, and even sucking in and then spitting out the pellets, although the pellets are small enough for them to eat. This year the LMB should be large enough to easily eat Purina LMB sized pellets. In a friends pond, even with LMB and HSB jumping all over the pellets, the BG are feeding vigorously on the pellets that are pushed away from the area where the larger predators are feeding.

The BG in the pond don't exibit the body characteristics that BG do that feed heavily on pellets (helmet head, thick bodies). They have some of them, but not to that extent. Then again, it could be a genetic thing too. I have introduced some BG that have better genetics, and were pellet trained, but I'm not sure how many actually survived LMB predation.


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Hm..looks like the BG that are not feeding on the pellets have a natural taste to other type of formulation. Curious though, are the BG that feed on the pellets the same strain as the ones that do, from the same BG supplier perhalf? Or are they transplanted from one pond to another?

This is so interesting.


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Leo, bad news. The feed mill no longer has their extruder. It was having problems about 3 years ago, was old and too expensive to repair. They do have a pellet mill, and do custom pellet making.They take dry ingredients,add steam, and the mill spits out cylindrical shaped pellets. The guy told me, that as far as he knows, there's no good formula for making a floating fish feed with a pellet mill, as all the air is forced out. There's a place in Nebraska though that does custom extruding, but sounds like a 25,000 lb minimum.

Would pellets still be good for creating a fry feed? I could make a pellet, and build a roller, and crush pellets.


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James. Thanks for the update. Looks like I have to find someone with a hand crank version of a meat grinder with pasta extruder locally for testing.

The pellet, may be wet or dry, will still float. The moist version just need a bit of an extra protein component to make it float. However, dry ingredients will definitely float, regardless of air or no air bubbles. We just have to figure out how much air is being forced out, versus the density of the dry weight compaction.

Others can chime in on this about feeding pellets to the little fry. I don't own a pond. I'm just a mad scientist love doing field works, experimentation both at home and work, and take lots and lots of notes of all sorts. Bruce, Cecil, Scott, and a few others in here are en masse pond owners. They will have great insights for you. If they indicate fry eat pellets, rather than a roller, you can just use a meat grinder, mix the materials together, and grind them into segments that's no more than 1mm in length, and 0.5mm in diameter. Plenty of options.


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Offline
J
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 475
Leo, I will send you a private message.


Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer.
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