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#278579 - 01/23/12 06:26 PM Possible insights to enhanced feeding?
Leo Nguyen Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 220
Loc: California
I'm not sure if this have discussed in the past about enhanced feeding to increase the fish biological growth (unable to find such past posts), so, here's a little input from my years of fauna, biological,and environmental research-studies. Hope Bruce Condello is okay with posting a similar discussion on this site aside from his wonderful site. Please, correct me if new info discovered, or I'm wrong in any way.

- - - -

There are myriad of articles I've studied about back in college between 1994 to 2001, while double focused on bio-medical and environment toxicology fields of study. Information was found in late 1995, but was not published and harvest until nearly a decade later. I've followed the information about the micro and macro nutrients found under the depth of ocean, not only for human health improvement, but also for any and every aspects of benefits based on the loaded nutrients found. This may not only perfect for your fish experiments, but may also benefit from it for your families. Here are a few articles for reading pleasure:

http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_36/issue_8/1578.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=BnZ77tb...nts&f=false

http://www.fathom.com/feature/35604/index.html


If you like more info, search key words in Google/Yahoo:

"Phytoplankton", "Deep Ocean Nutrients", "Deep Ocean Micro Nutrients Harvest", and "Deep Ocean Macro Nutrients", "Seaweed for consumption", "Kelp for consumption"

You'll be surprise that fish that fed off the deep ocean floors were/are magnificently larger, and those who live int he kelp/seaweed beds display greater spectrum of coloration not only within their bodies, but outside as well. All thanks to the micro and macro nutrients loads they've consumed, or predation fish consumed preys that receive the micro and macro nutrients.

------------------------------
Products:

* Uncertain of the claims in the methods of harvesting at the moment for these companies, but you can always tear the products apart, and literally look it under the microscope. I have the lab equipment over here, and if you want me to look at it for you, I'm more than willing to. Just send me a small sample no more than 50mg, or by 100ml in volume. If it comes in one pill size, give me the pill. I'll process it through centrifuging to make the materials more viable for analysis.

http://coq9-marinephytoplankton5000.com/index.php/quality

http://oceansolution.com/products/faq

--------------------------------------
Side products you might want to try with extreme high load of the fish nutrients needed, including chitin source:

http://www.oceanorganics.com/golf-course/seablend.htm

* Integrating this as part of the feed will increase the coloration of your fish. It may be a fertilizer, but it contains rich amount of oceanic macro nutrients, micro nutrients, and best of all, the calcium loaded chitin that fish use as part of their bones and scale development.

SEAWEED/KELP!!

http://www.noamkelp.com/

* For millenia, Asians eat this stuff like it's salads, in soup, or as dried wraps. As part of longivity, oceanic plants are part of the dietary supplement. Seaweeds/kelp suck up enough macro and micro nutrients around them, store them within the leaves, and only release it after it dies. Why do you think the coastal areas that has high concentration of seaweeds/kelp house such as massive diversity of life?

Coral Calcium rich:
http://www.naturalcuresstore.com/c=W4vFo...CFYUZQgoduU4Biw

* Japan is known of its intuitive diets. They discovered the high calcium load that the body taken in easily is from the white coral found along Japan's northern and southern coasts. People that have eaten ocean creatures that dwell within these coral beds, as well as the coral ground along the shore depths, increase life and body structure density by nearly 4 times without modernized supplements. Average human health and lifespan range between 80 to 110 years of age. That's for the older generations that had no modern medicines, yet outlive from those who have massive modern medicines.

--------------------------------------
Key to understand:

10% of calcium intake on a regular basis is the critical key during maturing states. I've collected and analyzed the data for aquatic macrofauna with the rest of the geeks and lab boys throughout the world. Same conclusion comes up over and over again. Between 9% to 15%, based on the areas of the water, all fish species and water based biological creature consume anything and everything that contain high level of calcium during development. This include integrated silica (sand) as part of their integral diet to leach as much calcium and calcium absorbing compounds into their diets, during maturation stages. When they can find the source of high calcium, such as shrimps, krill, shellfish, they will gobble them up over the basic protein rich diets from worms or insects. However, any opportunity knocking at their doors, such as insects with a source of chitin (harden outer shells) and proteins, they'll go for it as well. Secondary supplement of high micro nutrients exists in worms that dwell at the bottom of the water, or young plants that just surface from the soil below contain optimal enriched nutrients. Older plants will keep on sucking up the nutrients for storage in their bodies and bulbs, but most of the nutrients get diverted to growth in the young leaves. Young plants still have plenty of nutrients within their reserves and the roots continue to suck up large amount of nutrients. This is why most, if not all, fishes focused their consumption on creatures with the best load of everything. Anglers noticed that certain shellfish from freshwater will jump for joy on saltwater shellfishes. It's pre-programmed into their genetic makeup.

15% is the max level of calcium during maturation stages. This is why you notice gills between 3" to 7" will hammer anything that floats, casting a shadow of a bug, or maturing nymphs, while the older ones will chase after younger gills, trouts, shads, and various opportunities that may be in reach. 15% is the key factor in quick growth due to body bone density requirement. Higher calcium load will warp their body structure, and create odd bone density, which yield improper growth, causing them to sink more, or require them to over compensate their bodily functions.

Suggestion is, 15% calcium as part of the fish dietary needs for maturation state, and cut back when needed if you see their bodies become overly bulky. 55% mix proteins is excellent. Remaining would be fibers with macro and micro nutrients to increase their stamina and health. Seaweeds-high nutrients blend is crucial. Recipes for success will be a vital key ingredient for your monsters within the ponds.

Sorry for such as long post for the first time out. I'm passionate with researches on discovering vital keys. Just hope what I've found will enhance your fishery management. I'm still amazed at the ponds that created the mutants of monster fishes because of the love and dedication you put into them. Just marvelous.
_________________________
Leo

* Knowledge and experience yield wisdom. Sharing wisdom expand the generations with crucial knowledge. Unshared wisdom is worth nothing more than rotting manure.

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#280130 - 02/07/12 08:29 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Leo Nguyen]
Leo Nguyen Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 220
Loc: California
Let's kick this up a notch. Homemade floating meals that is a fraction of the commercial brand. Bruce got me running numbers and roaming through my old notes after seeing some online data that doesn't agree with me. Can someone chime in with me on this so I can crunch in data based on your response?

Let's take Purina AquaMax product, especially the Large Mouth formulation. Let's say you're using a small pond, trying to start a aquaculture for experimentation and cultivation for resale of your breeding, with the pond size of 1/2 acre (or what's the minimum size recommended?), with a min/max number of species feeding on the same pellets. A few conditions required for the pellets that you may want:

1. Protein levels allow optimal size in muscles development, minus fatty liver issue, and lack of stamina due to obesity.
2. Proper level of fiber and calcium for maximal body integrity.
3. Feeding frenzy during pellet introduction, based on attractant(s) incorporation into the pellet. Higher attractant(s) levels will induce verocious feeding behaviors.
4. Continual floating of the pellets until pellets fully disperse.

Purina probably have a team of creators and testers behind their work benches, but are they utilizing the highest quality/optimal ingredients and practicality in their products while charging the big bucks for the bags? $32/40lb bag?! How long would that last in a pond with so many mouths to feed?

Crude protein (min.)45.00%
Crude fat (min.)10.00%
Crude fiber (max.) 3.00%
Sodium (Na) (actual) 0.40%
Calcium (Ca) (min) 1.60%
Calcium (Ca) (max) 2.10%
Phosphorus (P) (actual)1.00%
Sodium ( Na)(min)0.10%
Sodium (MNa)(max)0.60%
Ash (Max) 10.00%

Ingredients :

Fish Meal, poultry by-product meal, dehulled soybean meal, ground wheat flour, spray dried animal blood cells, corn gluten meal,fish oil (LS), ground corn,pyridoxine hydrochloride, choline chloride, lecithin, calcium pantothenate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, thiamine mononitrate, biotin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement,niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, riboflavin, vitamin E supplement, vitamin A supplement, ethoxyquin (a preservative), zinc oxide, vitamin B-12 supplement, manganous oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, calcium carbonate, cobalt carbonate.

Wow. You're paying all of these for your aquaculture to gulp down on?! Slap me if I'm missing something.
_________________________
Leo

* Knowledge and experience yield wisdom. Sharing wisdom expand the generations with crucial knowledge. Unshared wisdom is worth nothing more than rotting manure.

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#280135 - 02/07/12 09:10 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Leo Nguyen]
jludwig Offline


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1456
Loc: Central Kansas
What do you suggest be used instead of Aquamax? Is there something else out there or does it take a custom of some sorts? Or does the water and application of lime account for the lack of calcium? What would be the cost of a "homemade" fish feed?

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#280141 - 02/07/12 09:24 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: jludwig]
Leo Nguyen Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 220
Loc: California
Homemade can range from binding natural ingredients into pea-size pellets made on your own fresh out of the extruder/grinder, to basically toss in livebaits (such as worms that you grow on your own). It's all about how much efforts you're willing to put forth.

I looked at various other brands, and so far, AquaMax is the only suitable choice that I can compare to. Other products are extremely high on salt, fatty substitutes, and the binding agents blended in with attractants will simply of your fish's deaths due to the fatty liver done in by over consumption. As more chime in, I'll get into the specifics on what I've found from years of notes and data crunching.

For now, let's take your questions into account:

1lb of AquaMax Largemouth, after tax and handling fee, roughly estimated at $40. So, 40lbs bag at retail is $1/lb. My question remains is, how many mounts can 1lb of the fish food feed in a population?

Homemade, based on the long run investment, can be as low as $0.20/lb, or as expensive as $3.00/lb, based on the extend you want to feed your fish. Remember, if you want ferocious fishes, then formulation of higher caliber is required. If you want docile but active feeders, then cheaper formulation can be achieved.

Lime applied into the water doesn't increase calcium in the fish. It contribute as high as 3% of total dietary supplement to the fish's total intake due to the consumption of invertebrates they forage at the bottom. Unless the invertebrates consumed high level of lime into their body, and then dispensed as binding materials from their guts into the fish's stomach, then the percentile increases. Otherwise, no. Calcium must be derived from the intake of the feeds/baits provided. The fish will absorb the calcium based on available calcium source in their dietary consumption.
_________________________
Leo

* Knowledge and experience yield wisdom. Sharing wisdom expand the generations with crucial knowledge. Unshared wisdom is worth nothing more than rotting manure.

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#280143 - 02/07/12 09:37 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Leo Nguyen]
Bruce Condello Offline
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One of the big benefits to having a large company like Purina creating the feed is their ability to procure large amounts of fish protein (like menhaden) for an economical price/weight ratio. One of the questions that I'd like to eventually discuss would be ways to take a feed like Purina Aquamax Largemouth, then to moisten the feed, and perhaps add micronutrients at our own procurement to the feed to make an ideal formulation for whatever fish we wish to feed. An example would be to look at Purina Aquamax, and what sort of nutrient a bluegill or yellow perch would need to create optimal health/growth/disease resistance, and add in some of the ingredients. Then you'd be able to hand feed the fish at your dock or waters edge, and have some fish that absolutely blow up in size. It might not make sense to do this for five hundred channel catfish, but if you had 100 bluegill that liked your dock location, you could custom feed them. I believe this would even work through the ice, since softened and reformulated feed will slowly sink.


Edited by Bruce Condello (02/07/12 09:38 PM)
Edit Reason: Pure excitement made me misspell some words.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#280144 - 02/07/12 09:46 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Bruce Condello]
spinnerbait Offline
Hall of Fame


Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 390
Loc: NC
Do you guys mix the sizes of pellets in your feeders? Small pellets, and large pellets?
_________________________
"I have not failed, I have only found 10,000 ways that won't work"
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#280145 - 02/07/12 09:51 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: spinnerbait]
Bruce Condello Offline
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Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 8854
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Originally Posted By: spinnerbait
Do you guys mix the sizes of pellets in your feeders? Small pellets, and large pellets?


Yes, but this might be a good question for it's own thread. It's not really related to the subject.


Edited by Bruce Condello (02/07/12 09:51 PM)
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#280155 - 02/07/12 10:56 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Bruce Condello]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
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Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 3536
Loc: Illinois, St. louis area
I'm all for a diy recipe.. But man that bag of food sure is easy.. smile
_________________________
I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.


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#280157 - 02/07/12 10:59 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Bluegillerkiller]
ewest Offline
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Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
What about contacting Mark Griffin as he developed the product while he was with Purina?

http://www.omegaproteininc.com/

Dr. Griffin's new employer.
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#280158 - 02/07/12 11:00 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Bluegillerkiller]
Bruce Condello Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
I'm all for a diy recipe.. But man that bag of food sure is easy.. smile


I think you can get the best of both worlds. You just need a group of fish, like in a cage, or near your dock, that really want to grow fast. They get the special groceries.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

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#280161 - 02/07/12 11:24 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: ewest]
Leo Nguyen Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 220
Loc: California
Who ever we can seek advice from, especially those who formulated the feeds before/currently, would allow us valuable insights. I have quite a few studied attractants that will drive the fish to eat practically anything and everything, which an be an asset, or can be destructive.

The micro and macro nutrients can be infused quite easily to the Aquamax feeds, by first reducing the total feed to 1/4, or 1/2 the portion, then combine with proper nutrient loads the fish requires. The problem with infusing with the nutrient loads in a liquid form, the nutrients will be diffused away from the feeds within the first 2 minutes of water contact. Nutrients solid incorporation is the best way, not only for digestion delivery, but also remain in solid in water until consumption.

We have to ask ourselves, it is more healthy to, "Let's just buy a combo meal at a fast food restaurant.." or "Let's cook a nice hot wholesome meal at home.."? We can mix the fatty restaurant foods with our own loads of healthy salads, fruits, and veggies at home to balance out our nutrient needs.

Most of aquaculture breeders and pond owners are at this fork in the road now. Best to proceed with cautions.
_________________________
Leo

* Knowledge and experience yield wisdom. Sharing wisdom expand the generations with crucial knowledge. Unshared wisdom is worth nothing more than rotting manure.

Top
#280163 - 02/08/12 12:41 AM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Leo Nguyen]
esshup Offline
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Posts: 24029
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Leo, I can't speak for everyone, but I sure would like a food that is taylored to do what you are suggesting. There is only so much large companies are willing to do for the smaller consumers.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#280167 - 02/08/12 04:23 AM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: esshup]
JamesBryan Offline


Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 475
Loc: N.W. Missouri
Leo, VERY INTERESTING!! Thank you for the info. I have often pondered the aspect of using different sources of fertilization through ocean based sources, but never taken past the thinking part. I have always assumed it would either be cost prohibitive, or sources unattainable. Thanks for the links!

I have a stupid question. First I am by no means a scientist, but always try to weigh all the possible pros and cons of things. I hear about many ocean fishes containing high levels of mercury, as do many freshwater fishes. Is there any transfer of mercury through these nutrient enhancing aspects? Or any other bad things that may ride in via "piggy back"?

The link with the sealife based fertilizers has really got me considering using that for my forage pond, and beginning the nutrient enhancement feed chain there. It sounds like a great way to start. Enhancing the microscopic spectrum, and carry up the food chain could be a very good way of doing this.
_________________________
Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will sit in a boat and drink beer.

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#280175 - 02/08/12 09:49 AM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Bruce Condello]
Cecil Baird1 Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 20043
Loc: Northeastern Indiana
Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
One of the big benefits to having a large company like Purina creating the feed is their ability to procure large amounts of fish protein (like menhaden) for an economical price/weight ratio. One of the questions that I'd like to eventually discuss would be ways to take a feed like Purina Aquamax Largemouth, then to moisten the feed, and perhaps add micronutrients at our own procurement to the feed to make an ideal formulation for whatever fish we wish to feed. An example would be to look at Purina Aquamax, and what sort of nutrient a bluegill or yellow perch would need to create optimal health/growth/disease resistance, and add in some of the ingredients. Then you'd be able to hand feed the fish at your dock or waters edge, and have some fish that absolutely blow up in size. It might not make sense to do this for five hundred channel catfish, but if you had 100 bluegill that liked your dock location, you could custom feed them. I believe this would even work through the ice, since softened and reformulated feed will slowly sink.


Bruce,

I hydrate all of my Aquamax feed now for a better feeding response and easier digestibility in colder water. It would be a piece of cake to add probiotics or what ever to the mix. I'm feeding 5D05 Aquamax to my inside tank fish and add tree parts feed to one part water in a gallon zip lock bag. I invert the bag and get the water and feed throughly mixed then let it sit, but turn it over every 30 seconds or so for the first couple of minutes. In two hours it has a nice clay like consistency. It still floats unless I squeeze it. The pond fish feed on it like crack cocaine if I sink it. I like to sight feed them off the pier. Pretty cool to have 1 lb. + bluegills and 13 to 14 inch yellow perch come up to nail it.

The Europeans are true believers in the probiotics and some here are getting into the act. And they are very cheap vs. extra vitamins. Not sure I'd want to add extra vitamins as we all know you can get too much of some of them and have problems.


My main problem is all the carbs in commercial fish feed. It's designed as a high energy diet for trout that are constantly swimming against the current in a race way. Our more sedentary species in the ponds end up getting too many carbs and develop the fatty tissue not only in the liver. I believe it shortens their life span vs. a fish on a natural diet. My healthiest fish get both a pellet and natural diet.


Edited by Cecil Baird1 (02/08/12 09:56 AM)
_________________________
If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.







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#280176 - 02/08/12 09:55 AM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Bruce Condello]
Bluegillerkiller Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 09/08/09
Posts: 3536
Loc: Illinois, St. louis area
Originally Posted By: Bruce Condello
Originally Posted By: Bluegillerkiller
I'm all for a diy recipe.. But man that bag of food sure is easy.. smile


I think you can get the best of both worlds. You just need a group of fish, like in a cage, or near your dock, that really want to grow fast. They get the special groceries.



Well I plan to do something similar to that if I can get some special fish wink


Edited by Bluegillerkiller (02/08/12 09:55 AM)
_________________________
I believe in catch and release. I catch then release to the grease..

BG. CSBG. LMB. HSB. RES.


Top
#280177 - 02/08/12 10:02 AM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Bluegillerkiller]
ewest Offline
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Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19590
Loc: Miss.
Different species have vastly different requirements for proper nutrition. That was a topic at the last PB Conf. Unless a species has a large aquaculture following like Trout then manufacturers don't want to make a food specilized for that species. That is why we have generalized feeds like most on the market. The exception is special trout feeds , Aqua Max carnivore feeds (400 , 500 ,600 etc) and Aqua max LMB pellets for LMB (also works good for bigger HSB).









Edited by ewest (02/08/12 10:35 AM)
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#280185 - 02/08/12 11:22 AM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: JamesBryan]
Leo Nguyen Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 220
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: JamesBryan
I have a stupid question. First I am by no means a scientist, but always try to weigh all the possible pros and cons of things. I hear about many ocean fishes containing high levels of mercury, as do many freshwater fishes. Is there any transfer of mercury through these nutrient enhancing aspects? Or any other bad things that may ride in via "piggy back"?

The link with the sealife based fertilizers has really got me considering using that for my forage pond, and beginning the nutrient enhancement feed chain there. It sounds like a great way to start. Enhancing the microscopic spectrum, and carry up the food chain could be a very good way of doing this.


There's no such thing is a stupid question. The question may be silly, but always have a point of validity. Mercury is bio-accumulated at the liver first, and what the organs can't expel from the body, it's deposited into the muscles. Mercury content is minute in concentration, which can be toxic at a high quantity. USEPA regulates 0.0001mg/L in drinking water, because we're exposed to the water source on a daily basis, accumulating over the course of our life time. What is found in fish is to be estimated with a consensus consumption of a fillet, consists of 2oz per day, 3 times a week, for the rest of our lives. Mercury level found in the deep ocean fishes, such as tuna, marlin, or even whale's meat, is three times higher than the drinking water standards, but still way below atmospheric deposition (settling of mercury from the sky) and ambient natural standards (what already exist in nature). So, playing with soil, you already have your mercury load on your hands, and awaiting to be consumed. Breathing the air, you're already exposed to your maximum standard of mercury intake. In answering your question, for us to do an outcry about mercury being loaded into the food sources via fertilizers harvested from the ocean floor, or from deep ocean fisheries, it's uncalled for. As long as we eat proper loads of antioxidants-rich food, drink plenty of water for the liver and kidneys to flush out the mercury bio-accumulation, and exercise to increase the chance of metabolic-compound exchanges via fluids, you have no fear of mercury being a poison to yourself. You know that accidentally breaking a fluorescent bulb and inhaled the vapor mercury will exceed your mercury consumption of food sources by 5 years? So, where's the worry? This is speaking from a point view of an environmental scientist.

Remember, every has a base foundation of micro and macro nutrients from somewhere, let it be either from plants or microorganism, such as the plankton. The food chain become more complex as it goes up to the apex predators. But, every starts out at the base of the food chain, which supports the tip of the pyramid. We need to look into the self sustaining and foraging method, especial in the pond's that we're using. I may be day dreaming, but it's achievable with a bit of diligence.
_________________________
Leo

* Knowledge and experience yield wisdom. Sharing wisdom expand the generations with crucial knowledge. Unshared wisdom is worth nothing more than rotting manure.

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#280189 - 02/08/12 11:43 AM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Cecil Baird1]
Leo Nguyen Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 220
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
The Europeans are true believers in the probiotics and some here are getting into the act. And they are very cheap vs. extra vitamins. Not sure I'd want to add extra vitamins as we all know you can get too much of some of them and have problems.


My main problem is all the carbs in commercial fish feed. It's designed as a high energy diet for trout that are constantly swimming against the current in a race way. Our more sedentary species in the ponds end up getting too many carbs and develop the fatty tissue not only in the liver. I believe it shortens their life span vs. a fish on a natural diet. My healthiest fish get both a pellet and natural diet.


Cecil, I LOVE YOU MAN! Finally, I have one on board with me. Look at the filler being added. Vitamins are added, but it's at a waste. Why? Because fish can obtain all the vitamins need via the plants, sunlight, invertebrates, suspended soils, as well as the foods they're foraging. A few mealworm, crickets, or waxworms will be more than sufficient for the entire day worth of vitamins. Vitamins are needed concrete pond/liner pond/tank/aquarium fishes. That I can understand. But an integrated pond with everything to offered by mother nature?

Carbs are good during the initial developmental stages. But come on, do they need more carbs once they reach full maturity? It's like we're loading ourselves up with carbs and fats, then expect not to be fat and unhealthy.

If you want them to bite like you're tossing cocaine to them, try a small amount anhydrous betaine with the dry mix, or just a small amount of it to wet mix. Look at the ingredients for all the feeds. There are plenty of attractants that derived from the natural betaine compounds that drive the fishes into a frenzy. There are a few other gustatory stimulants that I can offer to you which will drive the fishes crazy. I use them in my fishing baits during spawning season.
_________________________
Leo

* Knowledge and experience yield wisdom. Sharing wisdom expand the generations with crucial knowledge. Unshared wisdom is worth nothing more than rotting manure.

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#280190 - 02/08/12 11:57 AM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: ewest]
Leo Nguyen Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 220
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: ewest
Different species have vastly different requirements for proper nutrition. That was a topic at the last PB Conf. Unless a species has a large aquaculture following like Trout then manufacturers don't want to make a food specilized for that species. That is why we have generalized feeds like most on the market. The exception is special trout feeds , Aqua Max carnivore feeds (400 , 500 ,600 etc) and Aqua max LMB pellets for LMB (also works good for bigger HSB).


The Centrarchidae food options is not as demanding due to the lack of growers, breeders, and private owners as you have mentioned. However, it doesn't mean that there's no manufacturer designed formulation for the species without proper scientifically approaching it. Look for producer that incorporate krill-shrimp meals into the soft/hard pellets for exotic aquarium fishes. An example is this site. They carry brands from companies that actually infused deep ocean krills and shrimps, rather than pushing for fillers and binders, with high loads of proper proteins. Reformulation can be done quite easily on your own based on your requirements. Like I said, it doesn't take much to make your own feeds. It's about how diligent you want to be in raising your own ultimate fishes. I would love to share my info and experiment with you to find that specific tailored ratio. I wish I can attend the PB Conference I received in the mail, but work and family here restrict me from traveling too far.

It would be nice to get a summary of the conference so I can get into the nitty gritty details. I will be graced by your elite group one day..one day..I think I will bore you all to death with my questions as I thirst for more knowledge.
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* Knowledge and experience yield wisdom. Sharing wisdom expand the generations with crucial knowledge. Unshared wisdom is worth nothing more than rotting manure.

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#280191 - 02/08/12 12:11 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Leo Nguyen]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
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Interesting points Cecil. It is my understanding that Channel Cats (and I assume other catfish) can sustain liver damage when fed the higher protein feeds used for finned fish such as BG and LMB.

Of course, if they are being raised as a put and take table food, there should be no concerns regarding their long term health.
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#280192 - 02/08/12 12:20 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Dave Davidson1]
Leo Nguyen Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 220
Loc: California
Dave, think about it for a moment. Would you eat a farm raised trout that taste like a fatty blob (not like bacon of course) or a nice firm tender piece of fillet that taste sweet? I've tasted the different between farm raised catfish and the wild ones. I will never go back to farm raised cats again. I rather hunt for them. The meat is much more firm, and taste so much sweeter and better.

Same goes for the panfish, specially gills. Would one raise massive quantity of gills that taste like a glob of fat, or would you like firm piece of fillet with good quality? I'll probably get blasted with comments saying, "We'll grow low quality for common market, and high quality for interested market.." or "Like any one would know.." But seriously though, if you want to sell something to the mass, I think the guy that sells higher quality, lower quantity, at a higher price will wipe you clean for selling lower quality, at large quantity, at a lower price. Yes, macro-economic calculations won't pan out with my reasoning, but consumers' taste buds and finicky personalities will trump the macro-economic calculations in the long run, just like it has always been since man had established trades.
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* Knowledge and experience yield wisdom. Sharing wisdom expand the generations with crucial knowledge. Unshared wisdom is worth nothing more than rotting manure.

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#280197 - 02/08/12 01:15 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Leo Nguyen]
beastman Offline


Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 223
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
For curiosity in terms of using pellet food as fish bait, has anyone ever used spray attractants on the actual pellets to help with the feeding frenzy?

leo you mentioned to Cecil: try a small amount anhydrous betaine with the dry mix, or just a small amount of it to wet mix. How would you go about doing this? Looking at this from a standpoint of catching more fish on pellets., or making pellets even more attractive to the fish.
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#280199 - 02/08/12 01:27 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: beastman]
Leo Nguyen Offline


Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 220
Loc: California
Beastman, spray attractants have been known to contain 7 different chemical compounds found in nature to initiate feeding frenzy, a well as lockjaw. I know all 7, and a few extra over the years of making baits for different fresh and salt waters, in different elevations, as well as different salinity levels. Plenty of notes and experimentation time logged over the decades. So, yes, spray attractants will work if you spray on pellets, as the compounds trigger a response as the compounds diffused in the water.

For dry mix, add 1/4 teaspoon and dissolve in 2 to 3 cups of warm water. Stir until the crystal dissolves. Only use 1/4 teaspoon to every 1lbs of dried pellets in a container. Any more, it will create a frenzy that may disrupt biological feeding period as long as 2 days because the compound will saturate the area, causing them to await for more feeds from you. Use your bare hand, mix the solution into the dry mix little at a time to cover the dry feeds. You can toss the mix directly when done, or let it dry back up for later usages.

I've experimented with 1/2tspn in the past using corn kernels, and the results were not..well..let's just say it's fun to watch but not fun on your conscience. Carps and cats accidental swallowed other smaller fishes that fed on the kernels, followed up with lockjaw. We laughed at first, but what remained after 8 hours wasn't a pretty sight.
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* Knowledge and experience yield wisdom. Sharing wisdom expand the generations with crucial knowledge. Unshared wisdom is worth nothing more than rotting manure.

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#280200 - 02/08/12 01:31 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Leo Nguyen]
Bruce Condello Offline
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Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 8854
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: Leo Nguyen
...Yes, macro-economic calculations won't pan out with my reasoning, but consumers' taste buds and finicky personalities will trump the macro-economic calculations in the long run, just like it has always been since man had established trades.


Brilliant, IMO.
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#280205 - 02/08/12 01:58 PM Re: Possible insights to enhanced feeding? [Re: Bruce Condello]
beastman Offline


Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 223
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
Thanks Leo, I might try the anhydrous betaine on dry pellets combination to see if I can get some hook smart fish to bite. I have noted the dosage, to avoid the issues you describe. I am fishing an area with Hybrid striped bass that are pellet trained but are very hook smart....I assume what you described above in adding these ingredients make the fish more aggressive and active....

Besides using anhydrous betaine is there an attractant on the market today that could produce simliar results by spraying on the pellets?

I know matching the hatch is important with both look /smell/ taste but I am assuming by adding this ingredient the fish might become more active/aggressive increasing chances of caught fish.
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