Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Wildlife Management Does Corn Hurt Deer

We have 3 deer feeders feeding pretty much exclusively corn to the deer, turkey, and various other creatures that sneak some. We do it to bc we love watching them and they entertain us, and we thought we were helping them. The guy next door hunts his property and allegedly only shoots the big ones and takes 1-2 per year for food. Anyway this past week he sent me a photo of a buck he got and said his stomach was full of corn and that was not good. Later he sent me links to sites saying feeding a lot of corn is bad for the deer and can even kill them. Our feeders dispense about 30-40 lbs per week and the hunted area including his and the guy on the other side of him is about 300 acres. He says he feeds corn from one feeder one time a day and for 10 secs. He has food plots and all eht property is about 60% wooded and has lots of privet and other things that deer can eat even in the winter to add to the variety other than corn. We will typically see 10-15 deer in out pasture out from one of the feeders. Is the guy right, are the deer over the area "gluttonizing" on our corn and not eating anything else, and thus endangering their health? Thanks.

In the Fall and Winter, deer eat carbs. It's the best food to keep them "fueled" so to speak. Deer are typically grazers, eating a bit of this, a bit of that. Their digestion works by having bacteria break down their food. So, a deer needs to build up a bacteria colony to break down the food that it's eating. Different types of food need different bacteria.

A deer or elk could starve with a full stomach if it's running out of food, starving, and a new food source is introduced by man. They'll stuff themselves on that food, and not have enough bacteria build up in their system to actually digest that new food.

If you've been feeding corn all along, I wouldn't worry about it. The deer probably has a large percentage of corn in it's stomach because not much else out there at this time of the year will provide as much energy as corn. I'll go thru 50# of corn in a week or so at my place during this time of the year. From now until the first green stuff starts to grow is the lean time of year for the deer.

I wouldn't worry about it. I'd be interested in reading the things that he sent you. My e-mail is listed in my profile if that makes it any easier for you to send the articles.

You could tell him that you'd love to feed commercial deer feed to the deer if he'd help foot the bill. After all, you are also feeding the deer that he's eating, and helping their antlers grow too.

I always start with ".edu" web sites. The one below seems balanced.

http://animalrangeextension.montana.edu/articles/wildlife/deer_tough_love.htm

The issue seems to be in one respect like bird feeders. If you stop, animals die. Second, if corn is not already part of the diet, the deer will not be acclimated (gut bacteria) to the corn, or if the corn stops, the deer may not be able to digest browse. I do not feed deer, but because I live in an agricultural area, I have harvested many deer with their bellies full of corn. They may get weaned after harvest when they must transition from standing corn to the corn left on the ground after harvest to a diet of browse. The key in your case may be moderation. Another approach might be to see what deer farmers feed their deer:

http://www.atascosawildlifesupply.com/pdfs/59SB.pdf

Or else you can do like me and only supply a mineral block, and/or plant a small food plot.

It is no longer legal to feed deer in our area because of chronic wasting disease (CWD). The fear is that the deer will be feeding intensively from a very small area, and the saliva apparently is one way of transferring CWD.

Before the CWD issue the DNR also strongly recommended not feeding the deer in the winter because it apparently really messes up their digestive system. The reasoning for that is that in the winter, in colder climates like here, they become conditioned to living on very low nutrient levels and significant amounts of roughage. When corn is consumed, it replaces the roughage, plus it is much higher in nutrient value, both of which are apparently very detrimental their digestive systems.

As for Alabama, I just don't know. Assuming it is legal to feed in your area, it may be worth a call to the local fish and game people.

Ken, has saliva been positively linked to CWD or is it still a theory? I haven't been following it recently, and the last that I heard there still wasn't anything conclusive as to how it was spread.

It's been out West for 30-40 years.

They don't really know how it spreads. Here is a link from the WV DNR: WV Chronic Wasting Disease. Saliva is one theory.

They have really locked down the rules around here, as the CWD keeps spreading. We can no longer take carcasses across the state line, either direction. The deer my Virginia friends shoot have to be butchered on the Virginia side.

If there is a good part to the CWD, it is that it allows us to thin the herds through a lot of special antler-less hunting days. Even so, we still have large herds of deer. We had 12 in the front yard the other morning. I'm sure that the high concentrations of deer in this area doesn't help the CWD.

APHIS has a fact sheet on Johnes (Chronic Wasting Disease) here:

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/a...s_disease08.pdf

They definitively link transmittal through fecal matter (primary source) and saliva/milk (secondary). Several years back, we lost Gertrude the Jersey cow to Johnes-like symptoms. At peak, she was burning through 120#+ of alfalfa + supplements per day and was still rapidly starving to death. Our vet had docs out of Davis and Iowa looking at her case and, although her blood work repeatedly confirmed she had not been exposed to CWD, we ended up putting her down for her sake (she lost approximately 225# in 4 months). We had her shipped to Orange County for necropsy but no reason was found for her condition (no tumors, parasites, negative tissue samples). As we were raising Jerseys for our private milk consumption and we enjoy raw products, we had our herd tested annually for Johnes, TB, etc.

My bad - we refer to Johnes in California when speaking of CWD. My apologies....

O.K., now you got me looking again.

http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/news.detail/ID/eb4941204c49fc2d61bc41f1b80f2f5d

First found in 1967

From the first link, then not only feed piles, but mineral licks could be helping the spread.

But, if it's transmitted by feces, then raised platforms for food and mineral licks could minimize the spread.

I'm guessing that animals build up a resistance to it somehow, or Co. would be barren of cervids.

Anything that concentrates deer probably has an effect.

In sheep, resistance to the CWD related TSE, scrapies, is dependent on genotype - the US tests for RR, QR, QQ in conjunction with codon 171. Per

http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/_WMS/publications/wmj/issues/wmj_v101n8/Cross.pdf

similar studies are being conducted on the elk population although, as of 2002, they state no in depth studies have been conducted on the white-tail deer population. They also suggest that when the genotype most resistant to CWD is identified, a breeding program similarly used by sheep producers may be implemented.

We have a 500,000 volt power line that crosses about a thousand feet of our property, and they are currently (no pun intended) rebuilding it. This power company, as opposed to the one that threatened us with eminent domain seizure for the last several years, has been extremely nice to everyone.

One of the conditions imposed on them is to put everything back to equal, or better, when they complete the job. They have agreed to plant a number of perennial food plots on my land. I forget the name of the product they will be using, but it will be a multi-seed hydro spray good for turkey and deer.

So far, they sure have put in a nice road, fencing and a gate, to help keep out trespassers. This is all industrial grade, like I could never afford. I've asked that the road and fencing stay.

Glad to hear that things are working in your favor so far. I am a deer hunter, but love to watch them as well. I saw a deer, that I have been watching a couple years, at our pond as was very glad he made it through the hunting season. I must admit that if he reaches trophy size, I will try to take him. Next year he will be at least 3 1/2 years old.

We have been feeding the deer corn for the 3 years we've owned the property. We also have mineral and salt licks out for them. We'll probably put in a food plot this year and will cut back on corn. It is legal in our case.

Thanks to all for the comments.

I will not be as politically correct. Your neighbor is being an idiot he should be thanking you Rick. You are adding body mass and probably some antler inches and keepign more deer in the area due to your efforts. Corn is not ideal but dang awesome in the cooler months for the carbs. This means deer are in much better body condition. The deer instincevley will eat some browse for digestion. The privet back in your woods is just fine. Ask the guy what deer do in farm country with acres and acres of corn? Geexz the nerve of this guy.

Also I do not buy into the CWD scare. They prdicted it might kill all the deer even where it is detected less kills than blue tongue that took its tole on my KY property.

If you want to put some more inches of antler for him then fed deer food otherwsie do what your doing so you can enjoy watching em.

There is a reason why deer hang out in the leftovers of the cornfields of the Midwest during the fall and winter.

Ther QDMA Seminar that I attended at Otter Creek last year had Dr. Grant Woods as a keynote speaker. He said that deer instinctively crave carbs in the Fall/Winter, and corn fills that need.

Corn doesn't hurt deer. The way it is applied "could" hurt them though. One of the things that can cause deer to get sick is from them sharing saliva so you need to make sure the corn gets spread like with a feeder. You should not put it in a pile on the ground or in a pig type trough. That's what I have been told anyway. You need to make sure it's spread out as much as possible.

Yes there is some reservation about a pile. More important than CWD theory is formation of aflatoxin when it is piled up. Im published in Journal of Wildlife Diseases...we found low amounts of aflatoxin was found in 7 out of 60 bags I purcased around the state. WIth a pile one good rain and some heat will cause aflatoxin to explode. Rick is using a feeder so no worries.

I wish Dan "The Man" VanSchaik would chime in. He knows a thing or two or three about deer.

Wake up FarmerRick, your neighbor doesn't want you to draw deer from him with corn. Deer love corn (especially in winter) and they will choose it over almost anything except acorns.
Greg Grimes, you're right on the money...CWD is MUCH more of a political disease than biological. EHD/Blue Tongue kills many thousands more deer in a year than CWD does in a century. The Feds had to come up with a way to regulate interstate deer movement and CWD was their ticket. Deer cannot transmit EHD/BT to each other, so animal concentration has little to no impact. CWD, quasi-viral prions, could possibly be spread deer to deer by any of the body fluids; but is most commonly shed in feces. Given rarity of CWD in most regions, I wouldn't worry about it (unless your in an endemic hot zone).
Aflatoxins (molds) ARE the main threat to feeding any whole grains (including peanuts) to wildlife but you can stay clear of that by bying mycotoxin-tested & treated corn (commercially bagged; cleaned whole shelled corn).
I have cleaned a thousand deer in my career between hunting, harvest sampling & necropsy and they all had stomachs(rumens)jam-packed full of some type of forage. Gorging is part of being a selective browser (especially mature bucks).
I have several hundred captive whitetails under my care and they are all offered unlimited, free-choice deer chow with corn daily. In Texas we also feed wild deer free-choice corn & deer pellets in gravity feeders throughout large ranges, year-round. In past 19 years, haven't seen one eat himself to death yet.
Spin feeders set 0n 7-10 seconds twice daily are great for attracting deer.
By the way esshup, white-tailed deer experience "neophobia" when presented with any food that is previously unknown or unsampled. They are imprinted on what to eat the rest of their life in first 2 mos of life by the doe, then build associated microbial cultures for rumen fermentation process. When confronted with an unknown, they will avoid or just nibble at it to assess digestibility. You would be hard pressed to find a deer in N.A. that hasn't been exposed to corn at some point.
Feed the deer corn in cool/cold mos and enjoy them!

Dan, Thanks. I learned something new today!

Dan welcome to posting. We could sure use the wildlife help on here.

7 to 10 seconds isn't that a bit much? My spin feeder puts out a LOT of corn even at 5 seconds I had mine set this year at 3 twice a day. Not arguing here just want to know if there is a reason behind the time. Amount of deer your feeding? Or does that time frame seem to attract more deer? Would I have seen maybe more deer if I had my timer at 7 seconds instead of 3? Just wondering!

Thanks,

It might depend on the type of feeder too. For instance, my AquaPro fish feeder will throw as much food in 3 seconds that a Texas Hunter feeder will throw in 20 to 30 seconds.

I keep 4 feeders going and only set it for 2 seconds twice per day. I'm not interested in feeding deer, just attracting them. I attract more coons at night than anything else.

No way I could afford 7 seconds.

Hey DD1,

That's kind of what I was thinking to. At 7 to 10 seconds I would have to have a ATM near my hunting stand!! That's a lot of corn, unless like esshup said depends on the feeder!

It depends on how many critters you're trying to feed. Turkeys love corn if you have them and often travel with deer. Density & coverage of corn from spinner is also determined by speed setting.
If deer are cleaning up everything each day, set a little higher; if corn is left-over each day then cut back. In Texas, a 2 sec spin would last about seconds on the ground!
Agreeing with esshup; no 2 feeders are alike in output. Play around with them until you get it tuned...not rocket science,just common sense.

Just curious; if you're not interested in feeding the deer you enjoy attracting, who will?

My research into feeding deer corn shows mixed results. Waiting for Feb or March when the deer are already starving is too late to start. You need to be feeding them the corn from fall on. The reason is as has already been mentioned. Deer cannot adjust quickly to new foods because they are ruminants and need time for their stomachs to adjust to a new food source. With corn prices these days, it can be quite pricey. Just randomly slinging some corn out here and there can do more harm than good. Especially in areas where deer don't have access to corn in their diet from waste grains as their stomachs are not already adjusted to corn digestion.

If you are going to feed the deer, especially in the north where winter kill can be an issue. You really need to maintain your feeding. If you don't, the deer may stay in an area not necessarily fit to their winter survival. When you cut off the feeding, the deer are then not prepared to utilize native food which in the winter is mostly browse in many areas of the country.

I am a fan of feeding whole soybeans as well as corn especially during the warmer months when deer aren't carb needy. From Sept to Feb, it's 100% corn. March is 50/50 corn/soybeans, April through Aug, 100% soybeans. At first our deer in PA didn't have a clue what soybeans were and we had to work at getting them to eat them. Now they suck them down almost as fast as the corn. The soybeans are super high in protein. Exactly what you want your deer feeding on in the antler growth months of April-July.

There are several things you can do for your deer that will help them through the winter months that is fairly easy and far cheaper than buying bags of corn and soybeans. Cutting tree tops of high preference browse species is great for deer. The tops of trees are the most nutritious and more easily digested. I like to pick out species like maple(all species), sassafras, oaks(especially deformed and under performing ones), and tulip popular are my favorites where I live.

You can also do hinge cutting on smaller trees. You only cut about 2/3 of the way through pole sized trees and bend them over. They stay alive, often for several years but the tops and all new growth is now within reach of the deer. You can make thickets for added cover doing this as well.

I also like to fertilize wild growing vegetation. Although not a native species, Japanese honeysuckle where it is found which is most of the southern 2/3 of the US is a top choice for me. You often find it growing wild in many areas. Opening up the forest it is growing in to allow more sunlight to get to it is a big help. Adding fertilizer in early spring and then again in early fall will improve growth and increase protein % from an average 6% in natural soils to as high as 16%. You'll definitely see the deer flock to fertilized honeysuckle. Other wild plant species I will fertilize include briars/brambles and wild blueberries. The deer will flock to these thickets to feed and take cover. Even fertilizing your woodlots where your mast trees like oak and beech can increase their production and we all know acorns are king when it comes to deer.

In my area ticks are a huge issue especially in summer the deer are absolutely infested with them. A friend of mine who is a deer farmer gave me this idea and I have used it for a few years now. They make medicated mineral supplements that have tick killing additives. I had provided minerals to my deer before this, but the new minerals with tick killer in it has really helped.

Even where our family land is in PA, the hunting pressure is intense and few deer see their 3rd birthday. So we have to do the best we can to make the bucks reach their potential as early as possible. There is little agriculture in that area so the deer are very reliant on native browse as winter food. The added corn certainly helps and so does killing a pile of does to keep the deer herd numbers in line with the carrying capacity of the land. Where we hunt in VA, it is extremely heavy with agriculture. There are acres and acres of soybean and corn fields with mixed fields of winter wheat, beats and sunflowers. Food is not a limiting factor there so we don't even worry about feeding our deer there. We focus totally on habitat work, providing cover for the deer. Just a few small food plots are used, but these really are not for the benefit of the deer, it's just to get them into areas where they are easier to harvest.

Dan, I've planted oats which the deer have pretty much ignored. Around Bowie I find that they only freeze out about every 3 to 5 years. Last year we had a huge acorn crop which let the deer ignore corn and everything else.

My cameras at feeders show interesting results. I generally run feeders from 9/1 through February or March. This year mature does and bucks ignored them. Lots of young bucks and yearlings hit them as soon as they went off. I tried the high protein peas from Nocona and no deer would eat them; even when mixed with corn. The hogs seem to have no problem eating them. One of my neighbors tried protein last year and the deer ignored it. I paid 1/2 of the feed bill and seemed to be a waste of $.

This year I appear to have mostly fattened crows during the day and coons at night.

My nest goal involves neighbors dogs.

CJBS2003, I noticed you feed soybeans. I have been feeding Whole "Roasted " Soybeans for the past eight years. I was told that roasted soybeans are much easier for deer to digest. I only mix a little corn in because of the price of roasted soybeans, which is $18 for 50lbs right now. I keep my plan pretty simple. I plant oats in the fall/winter and soybeans in the spring with Iron/clay peas a little later. Like Dave said, last year the acorn crop was unbelievable, so most supplemental food went untouched. I have noticed though that fresh sprouts of soybeans are like "crack" to deer. The deer don't seem to like the peas until summer though.

Dave, I'll probably be making my annual trip to Texas in late March. If you need a hand thinning things out, let me know. I can bring my "reach out and touch 'em" gun.

I doubt that I have anything that will need thinning but the latch string is always out.

My Grandson and his bow hunting buddies will probably keep everything away.

Heating soybeans inactivates trypsin inhibitor which naturally occurs in soybeans. Trypsin is a major intestinal enzyme that breaks down proteins into amino acids so the body can use them. Trypsin inhibitor interferes with this process.

Thanks again all.

Thank you for taking the time to explain that. That is interesting.

Yep, I read it, thanks!

I am far from an expert on this. However, I think that CJBS accurately makes the point for this area of the country.

I believe that the effects of feeding deer in the normally frozen and snow covered areas of the country are a whole lot different than in those areas of non-frozen warmer climates in the southern part of the country.

For anyone up north, including in our area where the ground is frozen and snow covered, I would have a real hard time suggesting that anyone feed the deer in winter, unless it is done as consistently and meticulously as would be done for cattle. Plus, way too much of the cheap corn sold in this area for deer feed has been rejected as animal or human feed because of the high levels of aflatoxins.

Just my ramblings ...

Don't they use that stuff for Moonshine around there?

Sorry, it is a show on TV that I kinda like, but the key guy is probably busted by now.

The only feed I have ever been responsible for deer eating, is when they eat my garden

I have found a remedy for that.

I watched it a few times too. From what I read, he really wasn't making moonshine. The show alluded that he was, but he really wasn't. Popcorn had passed away, and the videos of him were taken from a DVD/VCR that he made to show the younger generation how to make moonshine.

I enjoyed watching it. From what I know of it, it was kind of authentic. I believe the guy is the fire chief of the little town they live in. According to friends, the prices he was selling it for seemed to be quite a bit more than local prices.

No such thing as a "reality" show. The guy would now be doing federal time if it were real.

Corn isn't going to hurt the deer.

You can also usually have some fun gathering acorns. We used to have a few spots where we could fill up literally half a dozen big trash cans with acorns. Deer love them.

Deer will also eat bread. In fact, they LOOOVE bread. If you have a local bakery you can usually get the stale bread when they toss it.

They will also go through apples like crack cocaine. If you know anyone who has an apple orchard you can usually get the soft apples that they can't sell for nothing. You just have to pick them up.

Deer are browsers, much like goats. They will eat ALMOST anything in a pinch, but they do tend to relish certain items.

People will eat just about anything too. It does not mean that it is good for us. I think most of the deer in Jersey eat nice cultivated plants out of backyards.

The deer in the suburbs of Chicago do the same thing!

You'd be amazed at how much agriculture is in NJ. There are lots of shrubbery eating deer in NJ, but there are plenty eating soybeans and corn too.

I was raised on a farm in NJ, but I could not resist...

Well that explains alot of things.



I was born and raised in the Garden state, but I don't brag about it.

My wife and I have lived on the same piece of Indiana land for 22 years now and are the proud parents of two Hoosiers. I still have family in NJ, but they have to come to Indiana for visits. I do not have any desire to return to the crowds in the tri-state area! Upstate NY is pretty though.

It gives'em high cholesterol.
Dan

depends where u put the cob ??

Or if you have a sign like this:

Saw a deer (buck starting to grow antlers) yesterday in one of the wetlands/duck-ponds. It was standing in the water gorging on what looked to be milfoil, but it could have been another slimmy submerged weed. Have any of you heard of this? Maybe it thought it was moose...

At the end of turkey season I saw a couple of bucks that had antlers that were 2" long. Saw one about 5 days ago that had antlers about 1.5 times ear length.

Never saw one in a pond eating plants tho!

Not sure what they are eating, but they do wade into up to the bellies or deeper and feed on something in the back cove of the creek my dad's house is on. A lot of eel grass grows back in the cove, so I am guessing that is what they are feeding on.

If a buck is that far out past the ears this early, he's gonna be a tank come velvet shedding time.

I went to Cal poly to study animal science; and large part of my curriculum and interest was in animal nutrition and diet formulation. I am also currently a 2nd year veterinary student, which means i don't know a whole lot, but I will write some gibberish for you guys to justify my vet school tuition. It makes me sleep better at night.

I'll give you the short story on feeding concentrates to ruminants (deer, goats, and cows are pretty damn similar concerning their digestive tracts and how they react to feeds)...

The problem with feeding a diet consisting largely in part of concentrates (Corn in this case) is that it can and will cause a dramatic shift in the bacterial population in the ruminant's stomach. The stomach will over a relatively short duration of time become much much more acidic.

As humans, we think of acidic stomachs as being normal, but deer and cows (ruminants) have special parts of their stomach that are supposed to be free of acid.

So in the case of feeding primarily concentrates, the bacteria and protozoans that thrive on eating concentrates (corn) rise in numbers, and their biproducts are acid.

This acid will kill / displace the other types of bacteria and protozoa that would normally break down grass (cellulose).

The problem here is that the bacteria and protozoa that break down grass (cellulose) are the ones that contribute the most to the energy supply of ruminants. Grass is broken down into Volatile Fatty Acids known as VFA's.

These VFA's (volatile fatty acids) are then converted in the liver into glucose, which is the energy source that animals use to fuel their bodies.

So now lets talk about the bad stuff that happens as a result of the "grass bacteria" dying, and the "corn bacteria" proliferating.

The acidic environment makes the deer produce a lot more buffer (bicarbonate) than it normally would, and eventually it runs out of buffer. The animal's blood then becomes too acidic --> Bad stuff (death).

At the same time, the deer isn't getting the VFA's (volatile fatty acids that "grass bacteria" produce) that are turned into glucose (the bodies main energy source).

As a result, the body panics and goes into an emergency survival mode and begins producing ketone bodies (a really shitty, alternate energy source for emergencies only that increases blood acid concentration... It isn't mean to operate for a long time).

Too many ketone bodies build up, and the deer's enzymes that make life possible stop working. The acidity of the deer's blood increases at the same time (and we talked earlier about how there isn't any buffer left to keep this from happening).

So again... Ketoacidosis happens... Acidity of blood increases --> Death (if this happens for a short, but somewhat extended period of time).


So feeding too much concentrate = Bad

It would be better, but also more of a pain in the ass, to feed a mix that didn't consist of just concentrates.

But if the deer seem to be living long enough to harvested, then why mess with it? If you start finding dead deer in and around your property that don't have bullet holes in them, then maybe i would think about changing things up a bit.


As a quick side note; try not to waste money buying high protein feed (soybean meal); It sounds like a great idea, but the deer won't use the protein.

They get their protein source by eating the dead bacteria and protozoans that wash out of the top compartments of their stomach into the rest of their digestive tract.

The microbes (bacteria and protozoans) get the first shot at everything you feed; so the protein would essentially be wasted (never get to the deer's main absorption mechanism).

Interesting stuff Gflo, I had ideas about this but that is a good technical explanation. I think in free range deer, the odds of them consuming so much corn they die of too high blood acidity in unlikely. I could definitely see it happen in pen raised deer though.

My biggest concern is if you haven't been feeding the deer and then in February when they are about starved to death and then you start feeding them. You are going to do them more harm than good. Biggest reason, they are wasting all that time and energy consuming corn in which their stomach microbes aren't current ready to digest.

The same can be said you have have been heavily feeding deer corn and then all of sudden stop. They now have to switch back to an all natural browse diet, again they could face serious issues.

Tell me more about how deer digest protein? So it's a waste to feed them high protein pellets of even roasted soybeans?

So what happens when the corn is harvested in farm areas where the supply is limitless for the deer until harvest. We don't seem to have deer laying around dead at that time of year without arrows or lead in them. Seems like they grow pretty fat around my part of the country. Looks a bit like a hypothesis to explain something that does not seem to happen, but then again I am no animal physiologist...

Typically, you only find grain overload in animals that are penned and fed improperly (not enough hay but heavy on the concentrates - a very expensive error; hence, not common) or in animals that escape their pens and find their way to an unsecured feed room (this, unfortunately, occurs much more often). Also, grain load comes into play around the first weeks prior and after parturition. I agree with CJB that it is the sudden complete switch in diets that cause more issues...

Just saw this as I was about to head out the door. I'll post something tomorrow morning concerning protein.

Concentrates typically won't pose problems unless there is a sudden change in diet, which typically only happens in feedlot situations (as several of you have pointed out).

The simple answer to if corn hurts deer is that it won't, unless you stick them in a pen and force them to eat it without a fiber / grass / hay source. A feeder on the property shouldn't cause any harm.

You guys are pretty much all right on the money. I just think of deer like cows since they work the same.

CJBS2003 --> The situations you have described are correct

RAH --> It isn't a hypothesis; it happens i promise, but you are correct that it isn't going to happen very often (if at all) in nature; even if a landowner is supplementing their diet with corn.

FullCircleTx --> 100% correct


Tell me more about how deer digest protein? So it's a waste to feed them high protein pellets of even roasted soybeans?

Yes, its a waste to feed high protein pellets to ruminants, even if its roasted soybean; however, it would help if you were feeding those food items to monogastrics (like pigs, humans, dogs) and here is why.

Monogastrics (pigs, humans, dogs for example) have limited machinery to break down plant matter (or deal with trypsin inhibitors).

It has to do with "bioavailability" of protein with monogastrics, and I like to think of it in two ways.

1) Trypsin inhibitors are present; which will effect how chymotrypsin, carboxypeptidase and other important protein degredation enzymes work. Trypsin inhibitors will suppress activation of these enzymes, consequently making them not work very well.

So if you heat treat soybeans, which have trypsin inhibitors, then the heat will denature the trypsin inhibitors and render them ineffective, which leads to better digestion and absorption from monogastrics (pigs, humans, dogs etc).

But with ruminants (deer and cows) never think that you are directly feeding the animal. You are indirectly feeding the animal no matter what food you give it.

This is because you are directly feeding the microbes which call first dibs on everything the ruminant eats.

So it works kind of like this...

You give the deer soybean (heated or non-heat treated, doesn't matter they treat it the same as a protein source) ---> Microbes ferment it and use the amino acids that you paid for their own personal use -----> microbes die eventually and enter the ruminants TRUE stomach ---> The dead microbes supply almost all of the Essential Amino Acids required by the ruminant and are the primary protein source.

At the same time you can estimate that 16% of the soybean protein that you purchased is going to sneak by the microbes and make it to the ruminants TRUE stomach unmolested.

So, you can see that you paid top dollar for a high quality protein source and 84% of that protein was wasted because the microbial population did whatever they wanted with it.

Even if there wasn't sufficient amounts of protein entering the diet for the microbes to use for themselves, the ruminants have developed a cool little trick. Instead of urinating to get rid of all their Urea like most other animals, they recycle it into the parts of their stomach where the microbial population lives, and they COMBINE that urea with carbon skeletons from carbohydrates (CORN) to create amino acids. So they can essentially create protein from non-protein sources... Pretty cool huh?

Just to give you an idea of how good they are at this...


1 pound of urea + 6 pounds of corn grain = the same amount of crude microbial protein as 7 pounds of soybean meal.

So, just by feeding them corn, you are indirectly giving them a protein source by supplying carbon skeletons for them to attach the recycled urea to --> amino acids



Scenario #2) You feed protein to a monogastric (pig, human, dog) that is plant based in origin. Some of that protein is not able to be used, or has low "bioavailability" because it is surrounded by cellulose.

So you have protein that has a wall of cellulose around it; so the crude protein on the label could be high, but the animal can't use it because it can't break the cellulose bonds to get to it.

So you treat it / process it --> now monogastrics can use the protein.

You don't have to do this for ruminants because again, the microbes will just ferment it and break down the cellulose, so the protein is available for the microbes to use anyways. Microbes die, and the ruminant eats the microbes. Same stuff happens.

Its kind of funny to think about it, but ruminants (deer and cows) are actually pretty carnivorous in that they eat microbes to get their protein requirements.


Here is the super short story now that you probably read all of that crap...

Feed corn and they will make their own protein from it so you will kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

1) They will make protein from corn

2) they will use the corn as a potential energy source for growth

If you still want to supplement protein just incase, then decrease the soybean meal to a very low percent like 10%

These recommendations would be totally different / precise if this were a feedlot setting with pens, but it isn't.

Ruminants are really good at making low quality foods into really useful stuff, so don't stress out too much trying to optimize a diet plan for the deer. I would just opt for what is cost effective for you, because in the end the results won't differ too much. Genetics are of more importance.

Thanks Gflo - My point was that all that theory has very low practical value for those providing supplimental corn. I am a scientist by profession, but a farmer by nature. Evidence trumps theory every time.

It may be just the opposite, Ask my farmer where I hunt, they tear up his corn and in turn they do get hurt when they come to my corn pile. We can legally bait deer here.

That was also my point also RAH. I agree with you fully; I roll my eyes at my classmates that have their noses jammed so far up into their books that common sense just well... Isn't so common to them anymore.

The challenge for most people is realizing at what point information is actually useful (practical) and when it becomes a handicap (unpractical theory-crafting that is of little help).

Gflo - Getting into vet school is no small feat. You must be a bright guy. Even humans must adapt to different diets (microbe species populations must adjust in our gut). I just wanted to re-enforce the practical aspects of the deer/corn situation.

So why do deer biologists preach high protein diets... Say 16%+ to grow bigger racks? Without a doubt, all summer long and into the fall until the soybean fields around my father's turn yellow, there will be many deer pouring into them each evening to feed on the high proteins leaves. Then later after the beans have hardened, they're back in those field eating the beans that are stilling hanging or were missed when harvested... The big buck I shot last year was packed full of corn and beans.

I threw out my dogs dry dog food cause i did'nt want any critters nosing around my cottage screen room. i threw the food about 15 feet in front of my trail cam,and for the next week i have deer in the yard eating up all the dog food.I've never had so many pictures of deer.To tell the truth I was hoping to get some interesting fox,coyote,or wolf shots. But i guess the deer got there first,hope their stomachs are O.K.

CJB - A short answer: Deer, like any ruminant, have 4 compartments which makes up the stomach - the rumen, reticulum, omasum and the abomasum. The rumen and reticulum makes up approximately 84% of an adult cow's stomach but a much smaller % of a deer's (sorry - it is late at I cannot currently pull its %). Basically, the rumen (or paunch) is the central holding area for feed and it is where the majority of microbial activity occurs (VFA production - around a half of the starch/sugar is digested here -> energy if you will). The reticulum's (or honeycomb's) purpose is to move the feed back to the rumen until the feed has been broken down into small enough particles to be passed on to the omasum. The omasum (or manyplies) is made up of many folds and its purpose is to absorb water and nutrients. The feed particulate matter then passes to the abomasum (or "true stomach") where hydrochloric acid, pepsin (the enzyme responsible for breaking down protein), lipase (breaks down fat), etc., do their thing prior to the final absorption of the nutrients in the intestinal track. So, as the excess protein passes through to the abomasum where it is directly utilized by the deer, it makes sense to pay attention to protein levels. Hence, the biologists recommend a high protein diet. Also, unlike cattle who are bulk grass/roughage eaters due to their larger rumen/reticulum areas (as a % of body area), deer are considered to be concentrate feeders (as are giraffe). They prefer more easily digested and nutrient rich food products (ie., prefer legumes over a grass pasture - high protein/ starch). Also, they have a limited ability to digest cellulose/fiber when compared to cattle. (It makes sense as they cannot be loaded down with a large belly full of food - nor do they have the luxury of being able to chew a cud for hours after eating). This is probably why you are seeing them in your Dad's soy fields and why they raid the corn fields.

Hope this helps

http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/2095/understanding-the-ruminant-animals-digestive-system

gives a nice breakdown on how all of this functions and explains much more clearly than I have as to why a higher protein diet is beneficial.

A quick note - just found this. While regular soybeans have 25-30% UIP (the bypass protein), roasted soybean contain 45-55% so roasting absolutely helps! Ref: http://www.gnb.ca/0170/01700003-e.asp

Last year, I tried feeding soybeans. The deer in my area wouldn't touch them. As usual, the coons and hogs didn't let them go to waste.

I think what we should remember here is that supplemental feeding is intended to be supplemental. Deer will seek out what their bodies need, and will select for high protein forage if their energy requirements have been met or bolstered by supplemental feeding.

If someone is fine with and can afford to foot the bill for protein in their supplemental feeding rations and they are happy with how that has been working out for them, then there is nothing wrong with that.

Also keep in mind that just because a feedstuff is not classified as a protein feed by nutritionists, it doesn't mean that it cannot contain more than a moderate amount of protein.

For example: whole corn --> 10% Crude protein content (That is a pretty good amount of protein)

Now lets look at what is considered a protein food item...

Soybean meal --> About 54% crude protein (You can see why its classified as a protein item)

So if you are feeding Corn + a low % of soybean meal, then you would be offering a great deal of protein for supplemental feeding. (I would never recommend this in a feedlot / pen situation due to the risk of acidosis occuring)

The deer should be able to fulfill the rest of its protein requirement from the land, which they are forced to do at a level of approximately 6 to 8% anyways so that they don't die as a result of their microbes dying. Most of the time they should be able to find between 10 to 13% of their protein requirements.

Here is the resource that I find myself referring to from time to time. It is a little long, but I wouldn't recommend it if I hadn't read it myself and found it useful.

If antler growth is important, then page 93 may be useful.

http://texnat.tamu.edu/files/2010/09/supplemental_feeding_deer.pdf

That is a great link. I like the Foreward - it applies to fisheries as well as deer mgt. You guys go read some of it -

"Expect to hear several recurring themes during this conference. For example, “it
depends”, “your particular situation”, “supplemental feeding is not a cure-all for poor
habitat management”, and finally, “I don’t know !” Such caveats suggest that neither the state
of the science nor the art on this subject is exact.
Ben Franklin once reminded us that “every person that I meet is in some way my
superior, and if I will listen to him, I can learn from him.” Speakers at this symposium bring
with them a wealth of practical experience, insight and thought-stimulating questions. Listen
to their respective presentations and evaluate them critically. Challenge them with your
questions and evaluate their debates among themselves. Finally, apply those technologies
that hold promise for your respective deer management situation. And that pass the acid test.
Education is a lifelong process."

Eric, the thing that I have really appreciated about Dave Willis is often made comment of "We really don't know."