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Would you guys run the aeration system 24/7?. I was wanting to cool the lake down and run it at night only but with an undersized system I might get burnt aqain.


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I checked the Ph and alkalinity. ph 8.4 and alk 200ppm. The kit was expired 07 but I am sure it will still be right. There is over a foot of ice on the lake. I took a water sample of what came up the ice auger hole. Please give your opinions on these levels. Thanks


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Blair and I exchanged a few private messages on this topic of his small lake. Here are some of the highlights:
Hi Bill,
I bought one 5 cfm aerator (install in the next spring). I checked ph 8.4 last night at 9:00pm 5hrs after sunset 12"+ of ice 2-3" of snow. Alkalinity was 200ppm. Rainman advised me to contact you since you have experience with northern lakes.
1. fishing = 1:perch 2: rainbow trout
2.Swimming
I have a hach DO2 kit I just bought. My biggest question for you is about the fillaments suspended in the lake water. Nobody took a guess at what it was. The plants in the lake are sago pondweed I think. Could it be that plant going through its cycle and falling apart? What do you think of the ph and alkalinity? I will check the DO2 soon. If i can get away with (only at night )running 10cfm out of 6 difusers in the deeper part of lake 15ac of it is 12-13' to cool the lake off for the trout. My lake has at least two feet of muck that I want to get rid of so I should maybe run it 24/7 to try and get rid it. I can't afford to spend much as far as muck eating bacteria. any way I am just going on and on please give me your opinion.
I was also wondering about growing trout in cages what density did you have your perch at my trout will start at 3" grow them out to 10".
Was also wondering if you thought the pond boss mag would be good for me up north or mainly geared to bass.

Hi Blair,
As you will read, my answer to you was not just a matter of a quick simple reply to your questions. I have been spending most of my free time working on the year-end Table of Contents and Detailed Index for the 2008 PBoss magazine. Each year it gets larger due to the magazine getting more pages. Check out the new 2008 contents and index in the archives section of the Forum (Questions & Observations Archives). Now I see you do NOT subscribe to the magazine. Maybe it would be more economical for you to buy just the issues that interest you from reading my Contents and Index on the forum. Cage info is below. FYI: I have a 4 part article coming about smallmouth bass beginning in the March-September 2009 issues (see about SMB for you below).


I reread your topic and the respective replies on the forum. It appears to me you have numerous issues to be examined concerning your small lake. I will not address all of them completely now; too many and too complex of a subject. You are welcome to ask any questions you have later.
1. Alkalinity and pH are not your problems. They are in normal ranges and do not fluctuate much compared to dissolved oxygen (DO) or even temperature esp. when considering trout. DO will change daily and just 10-20 minutes of low DO will kill some fish (4-5ppm for trout). A whole lot of inter-connnected variables enter into a water quality fish kill.

2. I was not able to see much detail of the photos for algae/weeds you posted. Photos were too far away and too large of an area. Even with a good close photo, I would not be able to tell you much other than it is a filamentous alga or submerged weed species. I would have to have a preserved sample of algae to identify what type or genus it is. Weeds I can usually identify from a close photo. Some algae grow best in specific types of habitats or water chemistries, whereas some algae are generalists and will grow well in a fairly wide range of chemistries or types of habitats; depends on the species. In your photos I did notice some fencing at the water's shoreline edge. Are livestock on or used to be on the watershed? If so that could be a likely cause for excessive nutrient enrichment of your lake that usually or eventually results in excessive algae growth and water quality problems.

3. Fish (trout) dying in your lake could be due to several causes. Numerous factors can contribute to fish kills especially with trout. Other species of cool or warm water fish have probably not survived or flourished in your lake due to winter kills (see item 5). Low oxygen levels will kill trout first as DO decreases, then other species die later depending on conditions and species. Some fish can tolerate low oxygen levels much better than trout. Trout could also die due to heat stress if you get a warm spell and then a cold front with strong wind that rapidly mixes warm water throughout the lake making it too warm for trout. Then these two factors could come into play, increased temperature and possibly low DO due to surface mixing of deeper stratified water that had lower DO from build up during the short period of calm warm weather. Numerous factors will determine the extent of the low DO in the lower water. Lake ecology is not simple stuff like many seem to believe.

3. I’m not convinced that mechanical aeration will allow your lake to grow trout. I have not seen or made any observations on your lake, thus I am sort of guessing. From your descriptions so far, I suspect your lake, even though it is far north, may be overall too eutrophic to allow year round survival of trout. Once a lake reaches a certain point of aging and nutrient enrichment (eutrophication) too many deteriorated water quality factors occur that can periodically combine with weather conditions that will prevent survival of trout. Trying to aerate a shallower windswept 30 acre lake or even a central deep portion of that lake is probably not feasible in your case at least for trout survival; at least not feasible without large fairly expensive equipment. Some DO temperature tests during mid-summer’s hottest calmest periods will determine the feasibility of aerating your water for trout survival. Lack of depth and eutrophication are your two biggest problems for growing trout for long term periods (3-5yrs). I also question the feasability or ability of small scale aeration to help digest lots of the accumulated organic sediments on the majority of the lake bottom.

4. Since your lake has a very productive invertebrate community, (mostly “shrimp” that are likely scuds, amphipods – Gammarus), I suggest you focus on trying to raise the next type of fish lower on the nutrient/temperature scale – cool water fish instead of cold water fish. Some of the cool water fish also are more tolerant of pretty low DO conditions and eutrophication– such as yellow perch and pike. Other good cool water fish that should survive your natural DO -temp -BOD conditions of summer are smallmouth bass and walleye. You might be able to get trout to survive for 1-2 yrs but an unusual weather event could cause irregular circulations and regular periodic trout kills. I think cool water fish will be more tolerant of your lake conditions that you have described.

5. Past and current winter DO profile or conditions may even prevent survival of most of the cool water fish which is why the lake does not have a healthy existing fishery. Keeping some snow off the lake will verify the feasibility of winter survival by fish. A water body as big as yours may prove to be a challenge for snow removal during your winters unless your lake gets a fair amount of bare ice from wind scouring action on the ice. Ice thickness will not be your problem of low winter DO, but it will be the accumulated snow cover that prevents light penetration thru the ice into the water below. The lack of a large area of deep water providing a large volume of beneficial oxygenated water during snow cover is another problem of your lake. Shallow lakes always winter kill faster then deep lakes. I assume that you get lots of snow cover during winter? Regularly plowing snow on your small lake would at a minimum require a small ATV with blade.

6. Do you have access to the 650ac larger lake close to you mentioned in your forum posts? From there or local streams you could catch / trap minnows and other fish to begin to stock/populate your lake as a forage food base to feed cool water fish such as perch / smallmouth bass / walleye /sauger. Do you have access to perch, sm bass or walleye from hatcheries or do you have to catch and transfer them from other waters? It would only take a handful of perch or smallmouth bass to spawn and repopulate your lake. Fish survival from spawns is usually dependant on food availability and numbers of adult fish already present. Fewer brood fish usually results in very high numbers of fry survival to repopulate lakes/ponds. Way fewer survive in normal or crowded conditions. Walleye would not probably spawn in your lake due to lack of adequate or any wave swept cobble lined shorelines which are necessary for successful hatch of walleye eggs. Pike might spawn in the swampy margins of your lake. I’m not sure that having spawning pike is a good idea. They can easily become overabundant and stunted, thus ruining the other parts of the fishery due to over predation.

7. I suspect most of the 60 perch your stocked survived the summer fish kill and trout did not. Perch are quite tolerant of low DO down to 1-2ppm for short periods. Perch can even swim down into bottom water with 0-1ppm of DO to forage short periods for bloodworms on the bottom. It would be hard to catch any of 60 perch with a gill net in 30 acres with just one or two overnight sets. You may see lots of small perch late next summer from a hatch late in spring 2009 if they can survive winter of 2008-09. To check for YP spawn success, I would build or buy a fish trap and use it to sample next summer. You could also spock prespawn YP in early 2009. Plus the traps could be used to catch and transfer minnows to your lake as stock breeders. Minnows from a lake or pond would be likely candidates for species that will breed in still water vs those caught in a stream. Many stream minnows are dace, shiners and chubs and most will not spawn in ponds or lakes, but some will. For most of those the spawning process and/or egg development needs moving water or riffle habitats. Adding them will not hurt the lake but you cannot expect them to reproduce and provide forage.

8. From your one time temperature profile survey, I think your lake based on temperature alone (67-72F) is marginal for long term survival of trout. Temerature conditions will undoubtedly get a little worse (higher) from time to time. This does not take into account the high biochemical oxygen demands (BOD) the lake probably experiences periodically due to the degree of eutrophication, temperature and high amounts of plant growth which leads to the high BOD. I would not spend any more money to stock trout in the whole lake until you first verify if they can survive in cages at the end of your dock. As shallow as your lake is and the high probability of complete summer mixing from strong wind events, if trout will not survive the summer in a cage with an aeration diffuser near-by at the end of your dock, they will not survive in the open lake with or without proper aeration.

For the fish in a cage the first year, I would start on a small scale, maybe a 4x4x4 cage. If they survive then the next year expand the number and size of cage/s. In a 64 cuft cage you should be able to stock 40-350 trout in it depending on their size (3”-10”). When larger fish are used then fewer fish/cuft. You should be able to stock from 60-300 3" trout in a 64cuft cage - depending on how many you are willing to gamble with or risk loosing. If you stock higher numbers of trout the sides of the cage will clog faster with algae & cleaning will more frequent and the death risk higher. It is sort of proportional - higher numbers higher risk. Do you have my 3 articles (2007) from PBoss magazine on cage culture? Also info is available on the internet about trout in cages.

Overall it is hard to provide simple answers to the complex nature of your particular lake. I’m sure you will have more questions. Feel free to ask. I can help with advice for fish that you catch or trap to stock from a lake or stream but in some cases I will need close-up photos of them to help identify what you have. Next year you might want to send close-up photos of your algae and weeds to me or post them on the PB Forum.

Keep us posted on the forum of your progress.

Blair replies,
Thanks for all of your thoughts and time spent.
These are just quick points I only would like your opinion on #2 about the jar thanks
1;I have plowed 10 to 15% of lake with polaris ranger and plow. 2;I have a jar of water from lake do i put it in cool dark place or in the sun? I took pics of it but can't get them on forum(not asking for help with that I have done it before just having problems)
3;took DO test saturday it was 5.5mg/l in 8' depth 5'down
4 the 650ac lake flows into mine every year for two months providing shrimp. No fish as far as i know it is a shallow lake.
5 I will focus on perch stocked so far(21 6" last spring,40 1-3"may,300 1-2"july and 16 6-8"over last two weeks) and try a small number of trout in cages in the spring.
6 Yes cows have access to half the lake but i am going to change that.
7 I think in the future i might dig a pond <1ac close by so it is easy to manage. I look at Dredging or bacteria to eat muck or something to treat algae and it all comes to thousands $$$$.
8. I will start aeration in the spring 10cfm total on 6 diffusers and see how that goes for a couple of years and try perch
Thanks for all your help. I know it is hard to give advise with the info given. I will try and keep up with PB so I can give you good info.

Here is the picture of the jar the water is very green in the fall it was kind of brown or rust colour. If it is a bloom does this produce oxygen or is it a breathing organism using o2. next year I am just plowing long strips running north and south i did one around the lake and it was to late to correct.

Bill replies
Blair asks, "" If it is a bloom does this produce oxygen or is it a breathing organism using o2."" It definitely looks like an algae bloom. I can identify the algae species and density if I had a preserved sample. I would think the green color is mostly gone now under the ice? Was the water green that you tested from the ice hole? Bloom planktonic algae produces oxygen AND respires ("breathes") when there is enough light for it to photosynthesize. During dark conditions it ONLY respires (uses oxygen). During sunshine the algae makes more oxygen than it uses so there is a surplus O2 diffused into the water. In your photo you can see oxygen bubbles collecting on the inside of the glass jar.

In a day or two when I get more time, I will transfer some of our PM discussions to the regular forum so others can learn.

Is the snow too thick now to plow some N-S strips down the middle?

Blair says
i can plow still it is only 8 " or so. This water is only taken last saturday so it will still be the same in the lake today. How should i preserve a sample. I could take a sample in the morning.
That is why i was asking if it produces o2 because i can go plow more strips. I was thinking if 02 production was up to the plants they are only from 4' to 6 or 7' of water. If i clean the ice it will freeze down to 4' so I was going to give up plowing. Since a a bloom produces O2 i will keep going.

One observation i made on plowing snow vs aeration in winter. My lake 30 ac plowed strips in ten feet of water 37F. Picnic lake 4 miles south of me is 120ac with aeration in a 30' deep hole. The rest of the lake average depth is 12-15'. At a ten foot depth it stays around 32-33F. outside temps have been between -10 and -40F
for a month now.

Bill responds
WOW! Your water is that green under the ice. Unusual in normal waters. It tells me your dissolved or available phosphorus concentrations are high probably all year to be producing a winter bloom like that. Without adequate light all that life (color) in the green water will die and suck up lots of oxygen QUICK which is why you have been seeing fish kills during winter and even some in summer during or after cloudy weather spells. This means your lake is quite fertile - probably from the livestock manure? Around me I see green water like that in cattle manure ponds.

Green water like that in summer is sort of good because it limits light penetration so rooted plants do not grow as deep. Southerners fertilize to try to produce blooms like you have. Blooms can make a water grow lots of fish but they can be bad when they are dying or do not get enough light and they die = oxygen loss = fish kill. With real clear water in your lake (vis 5-8ft), the submerged plants in your lake would probably grow clear down to the 10-12 ft depths which means total bottom coverage.

I am not sure if one can grow trout year round in water that green - too much chance for oxygen loss. Trout can live in pretty polluted water PROVIDING the water is cold and ALWAYS has LOTS of oxygen.

If you can, I would at a minimum, plow a couple strips the width of two blades wide (up&back) across the central portion of the lake. Or several one blade wide strips across the central basin. We will see in spring if that was enough. A few extra down the center will not hurt any.

As I mentioned ice thickness in not your problem it is the snow depth. If you notice the ice when it thickens from freezing on the underside is always clear as glass despite the green or cloudiness of the water. When lake ice freezes I guess it must push out all the suspended solids and just the pure water freezes. Thick clear ice 3'-4'thick will still let a lot of light pass through into reach the phytoplankton so they can make 02 providing the sun shines.

You wrote above ""My lake 30 ac plowed strips in ten feet of water 37F." The 32-33F is the super cooling they are talking about on the Forum topics of aerating during ice cover. Water near or on the bottom of an ice covered non-aerated lake/pond should be near 39-40F. The water directly on or very close to the bottom is sometimes actually warmer than 39F. I have measured it as much as 1-3F higher than 39F. This is assuming my thermister is accurate. Water colder than 39F and I think the northern fish start to become temperature stressed to some degree, although I think fish during winter and under ice cover can easily tolerate water temperatures a few degrees lower than 39F. I think when the fish have to endure extended periods of lower temps then the degree of stress is increased. Then the condition or general health of the fish becomes important as to how well it will then survive the winter during ice cover, esp if it cannot findsome sort of warm water refuge (39F). The water temperatures you measured in those couple of lakes under the ice are very good examples of what supercooling is.


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Thanks for posting that Bill. Very interesting stuff.


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I drilled a hole in the ice today and the water is still very green. I am doing a Do2 test in the afternoon today and setting up the aeration. The water smelt like H2S today so I Hope the aeration will get rid of that. One con to the snow plowing is when i go to work for the rest of the winter my lake doesn't get plowed. I am sure you guys know that not everyone puts out the same effort as us pondaholics.

Thanks to Bill Cody for posting our topics ;\)


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I did a Hach DO2 test today and there is no oxygen at all. I tested it at the far end of the lake from my aeration but I have been snow plowing so i thought i would check over there. The aeration has only been running since Monday 4cfm on two diffusers placed together in 5-6 feet of water. I am going to check D02 close to the aeration.


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Do2 at aeration was 4ppm and 100 feet away 4 feet under the ice was between 3 and 4. So part of my lake should hold life.


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Hope your fish make it Blair, I'm in the same boat, small aerator, running nonstop, and a tough winter.
Keep your fingers crossed.



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I don't have much invested as far as fish go(400maybe) but still would set me back a year

Last edited by blair5002; 04/17/11 01:40 AM.

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More Importantly you've put your time and care into the pond, and the payback most of us look for is the enjoyment of seeing the fish grow, and recreation it provides.
The aggrivation is just a side bonus.



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Tonight when I went to feed me RT in the cages I noticed a major change in water clarity. It went from 12" to 4 feet in 24hours and my cages have gotten covered with algae. The water temp near the cages was 61F with the diffusers 25feet from the cage in 7 feet of water. Well I got nervous and let all but 5-10 trout free in the wide open lake and I am hoping they will be fine. Another thing I noticed was little red bugs the size of a period and a density of 3-4 per cubic inch.
Here are some before and after pics of the trout
I got them on may 6th
[img]http://[/img]
this picture was taken june 12th
[img]http://[/img]
These are some fry in a near by river any guesses as to what they could be??? I know there are walleye, goldeye, northern pike, sturgeon, and minnows(not sure what species up to 3") The pics aren't great so I don't expect much for a guess but maybe someone knows Thanks
[img]http://[/img]
[img]http://[/img]


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The unknown fish is slender which pretty much rules out goldeneye. That's about all I can say for sure about those fish. Do you still have the fish? A photo in your hand may be clearer? I think it is a little early in the year in your area for them to be that big and sturgeon which spawn at about 53-55F. Then for sturgeon, we have to consider time for egg laying, hatching time, and growth to that size or length. Pike will be the earlest spawners and could noe be about that size in your area. At that size the fish should have looked like an miniature adult. Which features of the adult did it mostly have? Snout, fin arrangement, tail shape?.

Your water cleared due to the plankton bloom crashing and probably rooted weeds and or FA starting a surge in growth.

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Blair,

I could tell you what they were if I had them under a microscope.

A true minnow will have a preanal length greater than the postanal length. Walleye and perch will have more than 29 myomeres(bands in the muscle). Not sure about pike or sturgeon.

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Thanks guys! yes I have them in a rubbermade tub with aquarium fountain in it. Time will tell I was hoping for walleye and thats what I first thought they were when I cought them. They eat crushed fish food.


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 Originally Posted By: blair5002
Another thing I noticed was little red bugs the size of a period and a density of 3-4 per cubic inch.


I saw some of those in a friends pond. I have had some in a water bottle for a couple of months now and last time I checked they still alive.

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I will collect some to see how long they live I had a pail with lots in it thinking they would be dead the next night and they were all alive they must be tough.


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I tested the do2 in my lake today and it was 3ppm so it is not looking good for my fish. I only released 150 RT in the last year. I can't afford the correct aeration system so I am only running 3.3cfm on a 4xL vertex air station. It seems to help my lake alot but it is still not enough. I also plowed the snow off about 5ac in strips 20 feet wide and there is only 3-4 inches of snow out there.


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3ppm is definitely no bueno for rainbow trout... \:\(

But other northern lake fish like YP, NP and WE should pull through OK at 3 ppm. So the YP in your lake should be OK, you won't have a total fish kill.

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blair, if you tested at the diffuser boil it can read lower since this is the lower water being pumped to the surface, A true reading would be away from the boil.I agree 3 ppm is getting very low but fish have an amazing way of surviving. Was this reading an average over total depth ?

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My meter was at 3.1ppm. Tested the water 200 feet from boil and in 12' depth but only 3 feet under the ice. The bottm was at 1.5ppm. I used the drop test and my digital meter and they were the same. I like trout but my lake is a big aeration system away from getting them to live and even then like Bill Cody said it's probably to warm in the summer. They did good last summer but we had a cool one.

Last edited by blair5002; 03/02/10 10:22 AM.

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I recently ordered a vertex 4XL5 system to pump some more life into my BOW. It will pump 11.2 cfm and lift nearly 40,000gpm on 1.12kw. 2 stations will be set up 500 feet out and 13 feet deep and 200 feet apart and the other 2 will be in 10-12 feet of water 250 feet from shore and 150 apart. I am bringing power down to the lake side so the cabinet sits only 20 feet from the water and 6 feet above the water line. One of the most exciting parts is I got the self weighted tubing for a stress free life.

I have installed mored then 1000feet of 3/4 poly for my old aeration setup and tied weights on(Never again). I can't wait to cut that mess up into 4ft lengths to make structure.

MERRY CHRISTMAS to my family for a happy future enjoying our little Lake.


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Sweet looking lake you have there Blair!
Did you end up putting more trout in this year?

Those trout you reared in cages in 2009 sure grew alot in a month! How often did you feed them?

I had a .40 acre dugout created recently. It ended up flooding and now is surrounded by 6 acres of water. Put 600 rainbows in this past spring. Installing a vertex airstation system this weekend as I hope to get them to survive the winter...time will tell.

These ponds are fun!

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We had a busy spring so i missed out getting trout and it got pushed to the side along with all things lake related. Yes the trout grow alot in the cages. I fed once a day most days. They had lots of freshwater shrimp swimming into the cages so feeding was not a big deal I fed for fun basically.


"I think I have a nibble" Homer Simpson

34ac natural lake



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This is an example of the shrimp in the inflow creek to my Lake. I said 2 minutes in the video but we caught that net full in under 1 minute. We swirl the net around in the grass and can catch 3 lbs/ minute and I give them to friends with trout in their ponds.





"I think I have a nibble" Homer Simpson

34ac natural lake



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That is so cool. What makes them so prevalent?

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