Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Northern Red Ear survival

I have heard Redears do not do well in a northern enviroment. I have a large amount of snails in my PA pond and really would like Redears... I do not know of a hatchery around that has them so I am guessing they do not live up here? Never caught one around here. Will they live over the winter?

Cody I guess redears can be iffy up here, but pumpkinseeds would thrive.

Up there, it all depends on your microclimate. Do you know what USDA zone your pond is in? I'm right on the border of 5a and 5b, and the RES survive. BUT, my pond is 18' deep, and the local lakes are 30' deep. I think that they would have a harder time surviving in shallower BOW's due to the quicker temp changes. The closest local lake has both RES and PS in it.

My RES have done well in the Ann Arbor area. I still cannot find someone who stocks pumkinseeds so I went with RES. No problems after three years. I do not catch very many, but i get a few through the ice and I see some along the shore. If you can find PS, I would go with those, they are so much cooler than RES, in my opinion.

Cody

The way our Winter is going here in NE might as well anticipate climate change and give RES a try! It's a minor investment, and they are a superior to PS in size and they will not overpopulate and stunt as PS are prone to doing in many fisheries. While PS are the more beautiful fish IMO, I think RES would be a cool experiment and we could learn a lot as a forum. You can always go the PS route at a later time your RES fail to establish.

I stocked some redears for a few folks over the last few years here in Nebraska, and they've done well in every single body of water.

If only I could find someone within reasonable range that stocked them, they seem ideal for a casual pond owner. I can get PS easily enough.

Have had RES for the last 8 years and reccommend them often in swimming and fish/ swim situations.The only time I lose any is when I have prolonged temps of low teens or less with high winds that prevent ice formation for a few weeks I agree the deeper the water the wider the window for survival.They are a common stocking fish for Ohio.

RES in more northerly locations seems like a Pond Boss success story to me. I really think discussion here on the Forum has had more effect than anything else around the country. Anyone agree or disagree?

Do you have a supplier of PS, or are they collected locally? I have a client that is looking for another 200 or so of them.

I think that real "outside the box" thinkers like Don Gabelhouse of the Nebraska Game and Parks Commission deserve some credit as well for popularizing them in public fisheries in northern latitudes like Nebraska. Mr. Gabelhouse has stocked them in dozens of public fisheries, in particular the Nebraska I-80 chain of lakes, with remarkable success. This is how I learned to love them. Redear sunfish have kind of a cult following in Nebraska thanks to this stocking program.

Collectively there are a number of people on the Forum and off who have helped extend the range/option of using RES.

Cody what is your elevation ? That can be a factor as well as latitude.

Bruce, you sure are right about Don. He has long been a redear proponent. In fact, he taught me everything I know about redears.

Once again, I'm showing just how much I don't know. I never had an inkling that RES had any issues in cold water. I've caught them under the ice in my ponds for years, never giving it a second thought. It's such a common fish to be stocked together with BG, at least in my area, that I believe most people around here just take it for granted that where you find BG, you will likely find RES also. I know I always felt that way. They're in every pond that quickly comes to mind.

I have never heard of anyone in these parts suffering any RES mortality during the winter, at least none that didn't involve other species also, but now I'm curious. What is the threshold, temperature wise, or duration wise, where RES begin to suffer?

Sprkplug,

I am guessing you have enough deep water that stays warm enough to allow them to survive. According to manual I found by UC Davis. It shows the survivual range to be similar to bluegill which is 36 F - 93 F but does not tolerance quick changes in water temperature.

The link is here: http://aqua.ucdavis.edu/DatabaseRoot/pdf/ASAQ-C13.PDF

Another possibly is that your redear fish spawned with a bluegill thus the offspring are more tolerant of the cold.

Bob Lusk wrote an article for bassresource.com and he mentioned that redears can't take the cold but did not give specifics. Maybe he will see this and comment.

Also you may have be close enough to the native range of redears that we aren't affect by your winters.

Link to native range and other stockings: http://nas2.er.usgs.gov/viewer/GetStatic...p;speciesid=390

Link to past discussion on redears and cold water: http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=193640

While I have caught RES/BG hybrids in my ponds, there are many pure RES also. I think the most likely scenario would be one in which some RES are better suited to winter survival than others. In a normal winter, unlike this one, I experience significant ice cover, which should mean that the warmest water is near the bottom, at 39 degrees. the deepest pond I have RES in is about 20', and the shallowest is 11' Both of these have had reproducing populations of RES for over 40 years.

I wonder about the possibility of a strain of RES more adaptable to colder water,

Keep in mind that there are also certain sets of circumstances beyond the amount of ice cover that can stress fish like redear sunfish.

Two examples I can think of, off the top of my head.

1. Lack of oxygen near the bottom during the winter can force fish to occupy the regions just below the ice. Not that bad for bluegill, but awful for redear sunfish.

2. Major cold fronts that are accompanied by high winds after a long stressful winter can force freezing water throughout the water column. I have personally seen this kill redears in one of my ponds. They made it through the winter, then we had 36 hours of 15 degrees temps, and 40 mph winds. The redears went belly-up.

Think in terms of more than just temperature. Think about water quality as well. Good, clear water, that has adequate DO levels from top to bottom will promote wintertime survival of redear sunfish.

I caught 3 RES in Raystown Lake in central PA last year. The first time I ever caught them in that lake. Not sure how they got there but that same lake supports lake trout and Atlantic salmon... So they can handle the cold. Raystown Lake is also 8,300 acre and over 180 feet deep in spots near the dam so it definitely doesn't have quick temperature changes. I wouldn't count on RES surving in an 8 foot deep 1/2 pond in the same area...

I wonder if they can cross with other breeds and have cold-tolerant snail-eaters? I am starting to understand why I don't see RES for sale anywhere around here.

Yes RES can cross with other lepomis. I would be concerned if the cross has pharyngeal teeth (snail crushers) and if the particular cross is long term viable (loss of non stunt ability and outbreeding depression like HBG).

Thanks for the information, Bruce. I understand why RES might succumb if the lack of DO at depth were to force them up into colder water, and I can see where a sudden mixing of the water column might be disastrous. If that be the case, It would seem that winter survival of RES in nothern latitudes would be dependent upon everything going just right.

Still, I can't help but think that in all the years my ponds have had RES, that there wouldn't of been at least one winter where things went wrong, if not in my own ponds then perhaps in those of my neighbors. I am not aware of any such unfortunate events ever occurring, certainly not in my ponds, but I will make some inquiries of my neighbors.

In both of the scenarios mentioned by Bruce, the circumstances that led, or would lead, to the demise of the redears might be different, but in both cases, unless I'm misunderstanding, the actual killing blow was dealt by water temps?

I can't help but wonder if there might be another factor at work here?

Thanks for the information everyone, I am enjoying learning something new. Although now I will lie awake worrying about my RES.

I think where I'm at is pretty close to the Northern border of RES here. I really haven't seen RES in any lakes North of here, and there are PS in the local lakes as well.

Dr. Willis and I have taken redear sunfish from a well oxygenated, high water quality pond with water temps in the upper-thirties, and placed them in a tank with the exact same water, and good oxygen (the other fish lived), and watched the redears roll over before our eyes because the water temps were in the low-thirties. I think there's a magic number (36 perhaps?) where it doesn't matter how good the water quality is, the redear will perish. Also keep in mind that there may be differences between redears in northern latitudes and southern latitudes that have to do with short term evolution..i.e. redears that have had a few generations to allow slightly more cold-tolerant individuals to breed with other slightly more cold-tolerant individuals...that would lead to populations that can survive more stressful wintertime events.

36 is the number listed by UC Davis.

Plus, Bruce, Lusk and the rest of us had bluegills side by side with the redears and no problems with the bluegills at all. It was a great learning experience. Thanks again for that invite!