Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Creating the food chain Blackstripe Topminnow - (Fundulus Notatus)

I just dipped one of these up yesterday and put it in our aquarium. I thought they were Gambusias at first but once I had it in the bucket I knew it was something different.

Anyway just wanted to know if anyone knows much about these or if they are a good choice to stock as another forage option?

Thanks

They are a good choice. However, like any other species if you have many hungry HBG and not much habitat for them, they will be short lived in your pond.

I figured that may be an issue, I was just considering something else like Gambusia and since I happen to dip this up thought I would ask.

I have it in our aquarium right now with a BG and Longear Sunfish and 2 FHM.

They do not seem too interested but a HBG probably would.

I did happen to throw in a fly last night and the Topminnow attacked it like a LMB, it was great.

Thanks for the info.

It could also be a blackspotted topminnow. They are also in your range, and very similar. They have some spotting below their lateral line, while the blackstripe topminnow lacks this spotting. Just thought I would mention it since they are very similar, and their ranges overlap, and they are both common in Oklahoma.

I was going to double check that tonight and see. Does it make much difference which one it may be.

Would either one be worth stocking in a pond?

Thanks

They are very similar in habits, and either should work. Olivaceus, Blackspotted is slightly larger than notatus, Blackstripe. Therefore it can accept a wider range of food, in other words larger prey. They both need vegetation to spawn in. Oh And I was wrong above, the spotting is above the lateral line, not below.

I think spotting is on the tail as well or at least mine has it. I did not notice the spots when I caught it but they seem to show up now in the tank.

Once I figure out how to upload pictures I will try to take one and post here.

Thanks

Can anyone comment on cold tolerance for these two species? Would they survive or fit well in a Virginia lake?

See Fishbase

http://www.fishbase.us/summary/Fundulus-olivaceus.html - black spotted - 15°C - 25°C


http://www.fishbase.us/summary/Fundulus-notatus.html - black stripe - 15°C - 25°C

Distribution of the blackstripe topminnow is noted as:
North America: Lake Erie, Lake Michigan, and Mississippi River basins from southern Ontario in Canada, Michigan, Wisconsin, and northern Iowa south to Gulf of Mexico( west to central Kansas and Oklahoma) in the USA". Those northern areas routinely get winter water temps of 39F. Blackstripe survive well in my NW OH pond with no bass and submerged and emergent rooted plants. IMO these fish would need a fair amount of vegetation and few to no surface feeding predators to thrive.

They live in Richmond Mill Lake, Laurel Hill, North Carolina...along with bluegills ranging beyond three pounds, hundreds of largemouth bass ranging beyond 8 pounds and 30 other species in this 125 acre lake built in 1835.

Thanks guys. Sounds like a potential occupant, but not a primary member of the food chain.

I skimmed through all 18 pages of the creating the food chain thread today looking for alternative species to build a diverse forage base. Somewhere in there, there was a mention of diverse vs simple forage base thread, but I have been unable to find it. Do you guys recall this thread.

There weren't a lot of outside the box ideas that people thought were good ideas. I believe the consensus forage fish were:

GSH
Bluntnose minnows
spotfin shiners
PK shrimp
papershell crayfish
lake chubsuckers
BG
RES
Gizzard shad

That isn't the broadest selection. What other candidates might you suggest?

It depends on the water and the pond goals. Some others are TShad , blueback herring , other sunfish , FHs , goldfish ,gambusia , tilapia and others.

RBT too.

I actually meant Tshad. Not sure why I wrote gizzard.

I was looking for fish that wouldn't be trouble makers, and that could sustain a population in a lake with predators. That is why I didn't list FHM which don't last, bluback herring/alewife which have had some reportedly negative effects in other bodies of water, goldfish which make the water muddy and carry a high parasite load, and RBT and tilapia, which are annual stockers in my area.

I don't want to take over this thread and make it a forage variety thread. I'll try to find a more appropriate thread.

Thanks for the feedback.

What drainage is your pond located on in Virginia? A more suitable option for a Virginia pond over either of the topminnow species is the banded killifish. Very similar species in many ways, except banded killifish are native to Virginia and you can find them commercially available on a limited basis. I have found them to handle predation reasonably well when they have shallow areas with aquatic vegetation to take cover in.

I've got banded killfish on my list of minnows to explore, along with the redbelly dace. I just wasn't sure enough about them to include them definitively in any list. The killfish certainly looks like an option to look at. The only native topminnow I found in Virginia was the lined topminnow.
http://cnre.vt.edu/efish/families/linetopm.html

Here is a list of all native and introduced flora and fauna in virginia:
http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/wildlife/virginianativenaturalizedspecies.pdf

Regarding drainage, the farm is right by the Pedlar River, which drains into the James River.

Many good forage fish will not survive despite frequent stockings if the habitat is not corrrect, which is why the topminnows survive in Richmond Mill Lake with abundant predators - habitat, habitat, habitat.

My advice is generally stick with fish that are native to your drainage. Banded killifish are native to the James River drainage. None of the topminnows are. Plus, where are you going to get the topminnows from? I've collected in many different locations all over Virginia and never caught a single topminnow. So wild collecting is unlikely unless you plan to travel long distances to find them. They also are not available commercially except through a few businesses that sell them for the aquarium trade at $5+ a fish. You could purchase a handful at the $5+ a fish price and then breed them in a forage pond to build up their numbers. Then release them into your primary pond(s).

Locating bluntnose minnows, banded killifish and satinfin shiners in the James River area shouldn't be too difficult. All three species are ones I would say would be the best non conventional forage species for more common warm water fishing ponds. The banded killifish and satinfin shiner are both native to the James River drainage and the bluntnose minnow although not native is well established as an introduced species. Banded killifish are also available on a very limited basis commercially. Bluntnose minnows are a bit more common commercially, but not by much. Satinfin shiners would have to be collected from the wild. They are very similar to spotfin shiners, except the are a bit less fusiform and their max size is about .5" less.

You'd be wasting your time and effort in stocking redbelly dace of any of the three species into your pond. The only species native to the James River is the mountain redbelly dace and they are rather rare and only live in cool spring fed streams at the headwaters of the James. Few ponds would meet the needs of northern redbelly daces which is the only species of redbelly dace which can live in and reproduce in ponds. Northern redbelly daces are not native to the James River drainage so finding a source of them would be a challenge. Plus, the pond type they can survive in would not be your pond.

Just because a species can live in a pond doesn't make them suitable for most ponds. What you have to realize is, the vast majority of species have a very specific habitat type they need. The two major species of forage stocked in the cyprinid family are GSH and FHM for a reason. They are generalists in habitat needs and can survive in many different pond types. If the other species we talk about were that way, they would be more commonly stocked into ponds and would be more easily obtained commercially.

Some species I think are a bit overlooked and could fit into a larger percentage of ponds are closer to being generalists in their needs. Such as the bluntnose minnow and banded killifish. However, keep in mind even the commonly stocked FHM is basically just a jump start fish and rarely if ever sustains itself in an established pond. GSH are more likely to maintain a population in an established pond but they more times than not, extirpated from a pond after several years of predation from common warm water fish species stocked into most ponds.

I cannot think of a single species mentioned in this post that can handle heavy or even moderate predation from LMB over an extended period of time and maintain a self sustaining population for more than 5-7 years. If you are planning on stocking LMB into your pond, skip all the "non conventional" species mentioned, they will just be a waste of time unless you work very hard at keeping your LMB numbers extremely well controlled. It's been my experience the only non spiny species that can survive heavy LMB predation and still maintain a self sustaining long term population is the mosquitofish/gambusia. I have seen limited success with mudminnows and banded killifish, but that is generally when the pond has a high percentage of aquatic vegetation coverage.

To recap, for the average pond owner who really wants to broaden their "non spiny" forage base outside of the commonly stocked GSH and FHM I would consider these species depending on your area of the country.

bluntnose minnow
banded killifish
blackstripe topminnow
lined topminnow
northern starhead topminnow
spotfin shiner
satinfin shiner
red shiner
(Other Cyprinella species may be candidates as well but the above three are the most likely to do well in ponds)
eastern and central mudminnows
johnny darter
tessellated darter
lake chubsucker
brook silverside

There are a hand full of other species which can survive and reproduce in ponds, however these species have very specific habitat type needs and these needs fit probably less than 1% of ponds.

As you may remember I drove to northern IN after the Northern Redbelly Dance and only got three and brought back one for my pond. Two flipped out of my hand trying to put them into my cooler. I wanted to try them for the FA control. I believe I could have gotten a lot of them if I would go back and set minnow traps and spend a few days there but it's not worth the effort and expense for me. I'll just put the money on more GSH.

Awesome post CJBS2003. Very thorough and informative. I copied and pasted your list of potential pond forage so I could research any fish on the list with which I am not familiar. Again, thanks for all of the good info.




I'm not sure that GSH and FHM are stocked commonly because they are generalists. I think FHM's in particular are just easy to raise in aquaculture and reproduce well before a lake's initial stocking. GSH on the other hand are a valuable tool because they have the potential to become larger forage items than most 'minnow' species.


My impression from reading a bunch of posts is that, other than availability, there isn't really a downside in choosing bluntnose minnows over, or in addition to, the very similar FHM. The bluntnose reputedly is much more likely to be able to sustain a population.



I guess it depends on the situation. I agree that it would be extraordinarily hard to maintain a diverse population in a pond that does't have appropriate habitat, wasn't designed, built, or stocked with the goal of diversity in mind, or isn't appropriately managed. As was discussed in the blackstriped topminnow thread however, I believe it is possible for a body of water to maintain a diverse population even with numerous predators, as is the case in Richmond Mills lake. Just to be clear, I don't believe that the bio-diversity in these waters is the reason for the healthy predator population. Rather, the predators and forage both seem to benefit from the maintanance of the ecosystem as a whole, from water quality, to habitat, to culling, to feeding, to the original stocking plan.