Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Raising Forage and Bait Anybody tried Redfin Shiners for forage...

Very pretty fish, best looking minnow out there but it doesn't get near as big as golden shiners... 3 to 4 inch max...

I put a few in a pond a few day's back I plan on re-doing and they are very attractive fish and the bass seem to like them... One got it as soon as I put them in... They are much better swimmers than FHM for sure.

I have used them for bait years ago and they always out fish other minnows for crappie..
That fire red to burnt orange tail and head seems to attract fish a little better..
Spawning males almost turn blue with the red fins.. Much better looking than most drab minnows..

They came up for food the same day and because of their schooling nature seem to swim right into the mouths of bass when feeding or maybe they are obliviuos to their presence...

From what I've read they nest in or over GSF and BG nest which golden shiners do as well sometimes... They lay their egg's in exsisting GSF/BG nest and attempt to guard them but usually get ate by the host..

I have a crystal clear spring fed creek full of them...

It will be interesting to see how the experts weigh in on the Redfin. Since I had never heard of them I googled Redfin Shiner and read some info. Seems like they prefer to spawn in clear water - which is probably why you found them in the "crystal clear" creek.

I know many folks like the FHM as a boost forage just because they are slow swimming and easy to catch.

Seems like these Redfins don't get as large as Golden Shiners and GS are available all over the place (even in Northern California where we can't have Threadfins, Tilapia or even sterile grass carp).

I'm curious to hear what the experts have to say.

Me too...

I've put GS and FHM in my ponds before but the FHM got consumed very quickly.. Not even around long enough to realy get in a few goods spawns.

The GS stuck around for a long time but many got so large nothing could eat them and they really didn't seem to add that much of a forage base.
One dead GS I found was close to 8 inches and maybe 1/4 pound...

Those were my observations anyway.?

The redfin will never get too big for even a med size LMB and they seem to be fair enough swimmers to last longer than my FHM...

They are also pretty fish.. I will take a picture of one soon and post it...

To me they just sound like a smaller more attractive GS...

I'm sure someone knows more but it looks like not much research has been done or I just can't find it..

There is one article that say's they do really well in a pond But do need fairly clear water to spawn..

I have pretty clear water and maybe they would be of limted use to clear ponds only?

They are still doing well after a few day's and I liked the fact I got them from a 75 degree creek and dumped them into a 89 degree pond and they just swam off... Must be pretty hardy fish as well..

Went down to the creek and caught a few for pic's.. Hard to keep fish still!

Nice pics. They look well fed.

Anyone have any input on these fish?

Tecohorn,

That's an interesting fish...do you think that the small pond w/HBG that I showed you would be clear enough for them? If so, I'd be interested in getting a few to try out.

Here's a minnow id page that looks like a good resource: http://fish.dnr.cornell.edu/nyfish/Cyprinidae/cyprinidae.html

(of course ewest must have this stashed away somewhere...)

I would be afraid of accidentally stocking a Rudd which is considered an invasive species, Rudd can get up to 15" long.

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/fish/ais/Rudd.pdf

Here's a quick link to a large pic from the site I mentioned above.

http://fish.dnr.cornell.edu/nyfish/Cyprinidae/redfin_shiner_pic.html

I did read one report that said Redfins are threatened in Texas. This might make it more likely that you've got the other species Tecohorn.

This is a very rural creek and we've had theses types of shiners since the 1960's that's as long as my memory goes back.. Had no idea they were threatned in Texas but read they were in other states. We have always called them redfin minnows and used them for years for bait..

If so I apparently have a stronghold for these little fish.. I will do my best to increase their numbers but I have thousands.. As soon as I lower the minnow trap into the creek they swarm the trap in a matter of minutes... The creek has a good current and they come flying up the creek as the bait smell reaches them looking for dinner..


I don't think these are Rudd's because I've never seen any get that large, they are not golden olive but iridescent blue to silver and I've seen a Rudd before... They have them in a lake about 15 miles from me.. I might go visit and try and catch a young rudd for comparison..
From the link supplied Rudd's don't like swift moving creeks..

The large picture GW linked is a perfect example to me... I laid one down and compared them and they are almost identical.
http://fish.dnr.cornell.edu/nyfish/Cyprinidae/redfin_shiner_pic.html

Meadowlark I would be glad to give you some but let me make sure 100% what they are first.. I'm 99% sure right now.. I do like them so far..
I put 40 or 50 into my pond on another property and they are doing well.... I have seen a couple get ate though, which is good.. I still can't find any drawbacks to this breed of fish yet?

ML, By the way 3 of your BG are now guarding nest! Watched one mating this afternoon, Yippie!
Genetic injection already starting just one week after introduction.. Still none have died that I know of..

Tecohorn, Rudds can hybridize with golden shinners, here is more info.

http://seagrant.psu.edu/publications/fs/Rudd_12-2003.pdf

I read that Redfins can live in ponds with cloudy water, but need clear water for spawning.

Thanks for all the info... I'm will trap a few more in an hour or so and really study them and post some more pic's.. And maybe with the help of everyone we can 100% ID them..
All the info I've seen so far is pointing to pure redfin shiners..

Redfin Shiner
Notropis umbratilis
Characteristics - back is bluish-silvery with more silver on the sides and white beneath, prominent black spot at the frontal base of the dorsal fin which extends into the first few rays, mouth is terminal..


I also have a bunch of Blacktail Shiner's as well.. They are easy to spot though because of the black spot near the tail... They get 4 inches long..

Another pic from today... They are blue to silver



RUDD

They should be right at home with Pacu

For sure... Those Pacu won't be able to resist chasing that shiny red tail around..

I have "played" around with a few redfin shiners as a forage pond fish. AS was mentioned they have very selective or unique spawning habits. Streams may not be an absolute requirement for spawning but one may see better recruitment of small redfins when spawning occurs in streams or moving water. I have never had them spawn successfully for me in a pond despite stocking them several times. That's not to say they won't spawn in a pond but I never had success with them.

I think one of the big disadvantages to them is they do NOT get as big as golden shiners (GS). When GS get too big for predation by most bass this is very good, because this guarantees broodstock to produce your next years crop of small shiners - forage. When your forage fish stays smallish (3"-3.5") as a mature or full grown adult it is constantly 24/7 vulnerable to being eaten. This is the main problem with FHM, the largest adults can be eatten by an 8" bass - not good if you need broodstock for next year's crop of minnows.

So unless your pond has EXTENSIVE amounts of cover don't expect redfins to live very long as small fish or as adults with LMB present. Redfins with some other predator there is maybe a better chance of survival, but with LMB life expectancy of redfins would likey be short, but a little longer than with FHM. If you constantly have to add breeders, it can get to be costly or become time consuming or work to keep breeders present.

Back to redfin spawning reqirements. Literature that I've read indicates the redfin has a very strong association with the green sunfish. The association has been linked to a chemical affiliation or a mutual attraction between the two fish. The association was noted to be strong enough that the redfins would only spawn in GSF nests and not anyother sunfish or BG nests. Isn't nature amazing? I suppose there are some rogue redfins that ignore this affiliation with GSF.

Stock some and watch for reproduction. I think your best chance of getting a crop of in-pond produced redfins would be to stock them during the redfin breeding season when they are full of eggs and looking for a place to lay them. Good luck with this and let us know if you ever get any redfin babies. I am interested in how to get this done in my pond.

Thanks for the info Bill... I'll update if I see any results... After looking at about 50 fish I trapped out of my creek... I have redfin shiners, red shiners, blacktail shiners and it looks like hybrids of those three..( all native to my area)

No doubt the red and redfin are much hardier than the blacktail... I dumped a few of all of them in my pond today (call it my experimental pond) and several of the blacktail died instantly because of shock....

It looks like red shiners will nest pretty much anywhere, even in open water as well as in or around sunfish nest, rocks or vegetation...

As far as golden shiners go, I didn't have much luck with them the times I stocked them.. I think the native Gambusia ate all or most of there egg's.. Not really sure what the problem was?
Speaking of Gambusia, those have problems in my pond as well and get hammered by BG and small bass anytime the venture outside their hiding places... Visited Meadowlark and his GGHBG/Pacu pond was just over-flowing with gambusia..
I dumped about 100 Gams I caught from my experimental pond (which is full of them) into my newly re-done pond and they were ravaged instantly in the clear water... Kind of funny..

Red shiners might be the best... I will study them some more as well..

Here is what I found on Red Shiners..
The red shiner is a true ecological generalist, an adaptive strategy that probably evolved during repeated exposures to desertification or extended aridity. Streams draining arid or semi-arid landscapes of the middle and southwestern U.S. are not ideal environments for most fishes, but the red shiner is just not any fish. Predominantly a denizen of creeks and small rivers, it is adapted to a wide range of environmental conditions, including seasonal intermittent flows, degraded habitats, poor water quality, and natural physiochemical extremes. The red shiner is moderately fecund, but its realized fecundity is high due to a protracted spawning season. While most other members of the genus Cyprinella spawn only in crevices (e.g., cracks or seams in rock, or bark fissures along submerged logs) and vegetation, red shiners can also broadcast in open water or attach adhesive eggs on rocks and vegetation as well.

Thanks for all the input everyone.

Red shiners would be easier and more likely than redfin shiners to produce young in a pond.

Anyone try red shiners? Seems like an adaptable fish with high reproductive potential. I was worried about its reputation as a nuisance fish. It apparently is considered invasive in some areas, and has also received some notoriety for hybridizing with local shiners such as the blacktail shiner.
http://www.epa.gov/eerd/pdf/redshiner-EPA600R07124.pdf

On the other hand, an adaptable shiner with high reproductive potential might make an ideal small forage fish. Ideas?

I don't remember this post from 2007 but I would like to add that I have seen redfin shiners spawn in catfish ponds with turbid water. One was my pond and it had only catfish, fatheads, and redfin shiners. the fathead and redfins spawned like crazy. It was like a hatchery pond.

deadwood, I'd be very careful before you imported and stocked red shiners into your pond. They will out compete the native shiners found in Virginia, much like they are doing in other parts of the southeast where they have been introduced. If the VDGIF found out you were the source of a red shiner introduction that lead to serious ecological issues, they would likely prosecute you and hold you liable civilly.

Native species which would be similar to red shiners are the satinfin and spotfin shiners. Unless your pond is in the Potomac River drainage, then only the satinfin shiner would be native to your drainage. I have had success in getting satinfin shiners and spotfin shiners to establish in ponds. I am currently experimenting with just how tolerant each are under predation.

Don't worry. Just an academic exercise. I've got an 'in', a 'bad fish' and an 'uncertain' list, and the red shiner is already on the 'bad fish list'.

Thanks for all of your input! You should be careful. Since you obviously know what you're talking about, I might start hitting you up for every question I have.

Here's one. I didn't think the spotfin shiner was a species of satinfin shiner. The County of Fairfax native minnow website however states that the spotfin shiner is a species of satinfin shiner.
http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/dpwes/stormwater/fish/minnows2.htm
Is this true?

In any case, I recognize that success of a lake or pond in producing large bass, which is my goal, is unlikely to be significantly affected by having a variety of small minnow species. However, having proper habitat that can support multiple prey species, in the presence of a healthy predator population, is likely to benefit members at every level of the food chain.

This post is mainly for general information and review for those interested. IMO the key to producing large versions of larger predators is to have ample larger vulnerable prey items as that predator reaches the next size class, as was suggested by deadwood. Diverse prey items that have individuals in all size categories especially the largest sizes the bigger predators can eat, keeps these predators growing to end of life - a key item to growing larger predators ("Growing Trophy Bass" - by Lusk). Keep in mind that the largest predators usually have the fewest numbers when compared to all size classes of that species. For what appears to be your goals (larger bass 4 deadwood) something the size of red shiner is not what you should ultimately have but look for larger prey items that the larger bass would be eating such as fusiform species 8"-10" or maybe 12" long. Adult red shiners are optimum forage for LMB that are 10"-14" long. Having too many 10"-14" LMB is not all that beneficial. LMB larger than 14" are wasting too much energy eating red shiners to result in efficient weight gain. This is especially true as the LMB get 16"+. Diverse small forage is not all that beneficial for them to grow to large sizes. Diverse forage is good but ideally it should be comprised of species that include ample large food items for the largest predators.

My current theory about predation. I think ample is important for this topic. From my observations predators seem to attack the most vulnerable individuals which often means the weak, sick, stressed or senile ones. Healthy prey usually escape predation and predators often ignore those, the healthiest, fastest prey. The vulnerable ones and the weakest individuals of the larger prey species often become food for the largest predators. The smaller predators cannot eat the large weak prey items. Thus to have larger numbers of vulnerable prey one needs lots of (ample) prey individuals so more senile ones regularly become available. Normal populations depending on species including prey species have natural mortalities in the range of 25-40% per year. Example: IMO A large bass (20") will not usually attack a 6.6-7.5" BG, but weaken that BG or make it vulnerable and the LMB will readily consume it.

I think your commentary is a well accepted truth, and the biggest problem in managing a pond or lake for trophy bass. In another thread, CSBJ2003 just posted a lengthy list of alternative small forage species that have the potential to become established in ponds with adequate habitat.

The list of forage fish that get big enough to grow a 6 pound bass to a 10 pound bass, or a 10 pound bass to a 15 pound bass, is a much shorter list. At least it is when you try to select for forage fish that don't rapidly become too large to be eaten and start to consume an unhealthy percentage of the potential sustainable biomass. Otherwise, noone would take the risk of stocking gizzard shad, or suffer the expense of annual trout or tilapia stockings.

BTW, it appears that lake chub suckers have come into and gone out of vogue on the forum, but by searching through the older topics on the forum, I did find one source that still seems to have them in stock.
http://www.aquaculturestore.com/fwverts.html