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#199898 - 01/19/10 06:01 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: HoneyHole]
david u Offline
Lunker

Registered: 11/28/06
Posts: 359
Loc: denton & montague counties
Joe ...I don't recall seeing how deep your pond would be. The formula for deciding pond size uses annual rainfall, watershed, , runoff potential of watershed(soil type , slope , and vegetation). The volume of water to fill your pond is measured in acre/feet. A 1/2 acre pond with an average depth of 7 feet holds 3 1/2 acre feet of water. My pond is in North Texas and we have similar rainfall and heat as you. With that said, my 100ac watershed with high runoff potential will not even come close to keeping a 5 acre (12' average depth= 60 acre/feet) pond full...hope this helps..du
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#200152 - 01/21/10 09:26 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: HoneyHole]
teehjaeh57 Online   content
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 7837
Loc: Lincoln, NE
 Originally Posted By: HoneyHole
Joe,

I would get back in touch with the nrcs guy and find out why the low recommendation. I would think you would be able to at least do 1.5 acres. I would not suggest building in the flood plain or pumping out of the creek for water as you will run the risk of introducing species of fish that you do not want in your pond. As far as the windmill goes it sounds like you are trying to avoid running electricity to your site. The price for digging a deep enough well should be about the same for an electric pump or windmill. For my money I would like to flip a switch when I need it versus depending on enough wind. Flow rates given for those windmills usually are under ideal (high wind) conditions. You may not have that when you need it. Adding a well should definitely allow you to build a larger pond. The nrcs should be able to give you a proper water deficit to calculate how big of a well you need.


One would never pump water from a creek without screening thus preventing introduction of invasive species...Sorry Joe just figured you already were aware of that.
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#200163 - 01/21/10 10:10 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: teehjaeh57]
adirondack pond Offline
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Registered: 08/31/07
Posts: 3135
Loc: big moose ny
Joe as has been said, in most cases pumping from a stream is not a great idea, but you might want to be prepared for a drought.
Check the stream for species of fish and determine if you want to use it as a back up plan to keep your pond from drying up.

The main supply of water for my pond comes from gravity siphon pipes from a stream, but the stream only contains trout, PS's, and crayfish which I already have in the pond, this is acceptable to me because without stream water I would have no pond.
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#200166 - 01/21/10 10:12 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: teehjaeh57]
JxxxOxxxE Offline
Lunker

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 20
Loc: OK
Well I met with the guy that has the large pond. He has just recently completed its current stage. I guess he actually does dirt work for a living, and has been selling the dirt out of his pond. At $3.50 a yard, he had just sold 90,000 yards before I met with him. Wow

Its a pretty large pond. He claimed it will be about 10 acres when full, to me it looked to be around 6 for now. He said at the deepest it was a bit over 20'. He was filling it with a regular AC well pump running around 40 gpm. He said it was costing him around $70 a month to run, but that it had brought the pond up about 4 feet in the last 2 months. To me, doing it this way just might be the best. I know what I want, and if I can get the electric company to put in service, its probably the way i'll end up supplementing. If I had to run it for 6 months out of the year, at $70 a month, the $420 spent would be worth it from the enjoyment my family and I will get.

I spoke with him for quite a while, and am going to have him come look at my site in the next week or two. He did tell me that he can dig 5000+ yards per day with his excavator. This is at $1000 a day, 10 hour days.

In the beginning I was figuring a 3 acre pond at an average of 6' deep. He suggested averaging 10'. I think 3 acres at a 10' average is about 48,400 yards.

One of the things I havent mentioned is that I not only want a pond to fish in, but I would also like to be able to test my jetski's in it also, hence the reason for the large size...

Although that stream is there, I dont know that it actually flows enough water to keep a trash pump running. When I walked it a month ago, it didnt seem very deep. Who knows, Just to help in the initial filling, I may rent one and try it...

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#200168 - 01/21/10 10:21 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: JxxxOxxxE]
teehjaeh57 Online   content
Chairman, Pond Boss Legacy award; Moderator; field correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 7837
Loc: Lincoln, NE
Supplemental irrigation from creek thread

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=13755&Number=164248#Post164248

Agreed creek water is not great solution, but can be managed with box screens. All the fish I've ever seen cycle through a trash pump were confetti...but better safe than sorry.

I would imagine you have bullhead, shiners, creek chubs, channel cats, fathead minnows, green sunfish and crawfish in a little midwest creek like that...many species that aren't part of your plan. Should exercise some caution. Sounds like Cecil has done this before he's probably open for a PM on the topic. He's great people!
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#200171 - 01/21/10 10:26 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: JxxxOxxxE]
JxxxOxxxE Offline
Lunker

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 20
Loc: OK
Thanks teehjaeh57


a few other calculations I have just been looking at...

a 3 acre pond with an average 10' depth holds ~10,226,430 gallons...

A 40 gpm pump running continuously for 6 months should provide 10,368,000 gallons...

So with no rain, evap, or leakage involved, it should conceivably be full in around 6-7 months...

What else am I missing?

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#200185 - 01/22/10 12:42 AM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: JxxxOxxxE]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24027
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
 Originally Posted By: JxxxOxxxE

A 40 gpm pump running continuously for 6 months should provide 10,368,000 gallons...

So with no rain, evap, or leakage involved, it should conceivably be full in around 6-7 months...

What else am I missing?


Aside from leakage and evaporation? The amount of water that will take to saturate the soil in the pond, and getting a well to pump at least 50 gpm. If one will pump only 40 gpm, then you'll be behind the curve if the screen starts to plug. Personally, I'd go with the maximum GPH that the authorities will allow. I went with a 1 hp motor that pumps 28 gpm, and I wish that I would have at least doubled that. My driller doubled up on the screen so clogging won't be an issue for a long while.
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#212139 - 04/08/10 11:16 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: esshup]
JxxxOxxxE Offline
Lunker

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 20
Loc: OK
Little update...I went over and dug 4 test holes on 4 corners of where the pond should reside...They were each about 11' deep. All I found was some almost black clay. Not red like we usually see here in Oklahoma...It was basically the same all the way down. One of the holes had a very little amount of sand, but not enough to matter....

The land next to mine is 10 acres, and is tilled right now, you can look across is and see a distinct line where the soil goes from red to black. Its very weird....

The thing I found odd was that we had just had some rain a day or two before, but I never hit water...Could that be from the clay content never letting the water soak in, and basically making it runoff?

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#223091 - 06/22/10 04:17 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: JxxxOxxxE]
MRHELLO Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1840
Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
Did you ever find anything out on your pond you are wanting to build?

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#223184 - 06/23/10 12:42 AM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: JxxxOxxxE]
tim pinney Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 173
Loc: osage county, oklahoma
probably so jxo. fat clay will only take in 6% above optimimum moisture when undestirbed or in its natural state. no water is probably a good thing. 5,000 cy a day on a trackhoe wow it must be a monster that is equivilant to about 650 10 wheel dumptruck loads of dirt


Edited by tim pinney (06/23/10 12:50 AM)

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#223338 - 06/23/10 11:33 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: HoneyHole]
tim pinney Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 05/08/10
Posts: 173
Loc: osage county, oklahoma
i have built 5 acre ponds for the nrcs in oklahoma with only 40 acre watershed. i think u just need to tell them you want bigger. a lot of times they go for the most feasible pond to build in a certain area due to terrain etc. i built one today staked by the nrcs with 6 acres watershed it was about 1/4 acre. just let them know your willin to spend more for a bigger pond and keep in mind there main pond staking is for ranchers who just want a watering hole that wont go empty and not take up much of there pasture. they like them small and deep.i'm not familiar with oklahoma county's field staff but in osage county,washington county,tulsa county and the stillwater office they will go to great lengths to help you

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#228067 - 07/25/10 01:50 AM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: tim pinney]
JxxxOxxxE Offline
Lunker

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 20
Loc: OK
No real updates as of yet...I did talk to Mike Otto for about 30 minutes one night...Very nice guy....


We are trying to buy another 10 acres that is next to our 16. That would give us 26, and will allow us to move the house and shop a little farther away from where the pond will go...


We have had a few flash floods this year, which are the only ones I can remember for a very long time. So I decided it would be a good idea to go over and see where/how the water was flowing...

Here's a rundown...

This is standing on the west property line between my 16 acres, and the 10 we are trying to buy. I am looking north in this pic...



Same spot, but looking south. All this water is flowing south...


This just shows the depth of the above water



This is looking north in the middle of my property, right where the middle of the pond should go. If I were to turn the camera to the right and look slightly south, this water dumps into the creek.




I sure wish I already had this done, and could have been capturing all the water...

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#228085 - 07/25/10 11:35 AM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: JxxxOxxxE]
jeffhasapond Offline
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Registered: 07/28/06
Posts: 7613
Loc: Pond in No CA, Me in So CA
Mike Otto is a great guy and very funny in person.

Good idea on looking at your place during a flooding event.

This looks like a perfect place for a pond.
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#274645 - 11/30/11 04:09 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: jeffhasapond]
JxxxOxxxE Offline
Lunker

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 20
Loc: OK
Long time....no update...

Here's a little update with some more questions...

In June of 11', we purchased another 25 acres that attached to our original 16. There was a farm lease on it, that runs out at the end of December 2011. Here's what we own now...



The farmer has taken his fences down, and basically is giving up his lease now.

I have made a couple calls to some contractors, and feel somewhat discouraged...I've met with 2 guys so far, both are supposed to be getting back with me. I am meeting with another guy tomorrow morning, on the phone he was talking about $2.50 a yard to move it on site...40,000 yards time $2.50 a yard is $100,000....that's not even close to doable....

Am I expecting too much for too little?

I feel like the problem is that I can't get a decent bid. It seems like everyone wants to beat around the bush on stuff. I dont expect someone to give me an exact dollar figure, but somewhere in a $6000 range would be nice. Guys want to talk about hourly rates, then want to talk about by the yard rates, but dont seem to be able to give me an estimate of how many yards they can move per day.

I dont like the idea of "lets start at $15,000 and see where we make it." I'm afraid I'd end up with it only half done, then be screwed.

The thought has crossed my mind about renting a large tractor and large scraper for a month, doing most of the work myself, and consulting with someone throughout the process, then maybe hire them to do the finish work...

Any advice from guys that've done it...?

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#274653 - 11/30/11 05:45 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: JxxxOxxxE]
Dave Davidson1 Offline
Moderator
Lunker

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 13384
Loc: Hurst & Bowie, Texas
I haven't done it because:

1. I have never run a dozer.

2. I have seen good dozer drivers and see just how much a good one can get done.

Have you talked to Mike Otto?


Edited by Dave Davidson1 (11/30/11 05:47 PM)
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Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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#274665 - 11/30/11 09:00 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: Dave Davidson1]
liquidsquid Offline


Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1912
Loc: East Bloomfield, NY USA
In a perfect world somewhere upstream would be enough elevation gain that you could gravity-feed the pond through a pipe and some filters. However I think that is frowned on in most areas.

But yeah, the going estimate around here in WNY is ~2K per 1/4 acre for ave 10ft no transporting of soil. My desired 1 acre pond wound up deeper with less surface area due to some miscalculation but since I like to dive, I will take it. So if it were around here for a 3 acre pond averaging 10ft would be $24K, probably more as you have to move the soil a greater distance unless you make islands and peninsulas (which I would have done in a larger pond) to prevent having to move the soil so far.

I heard around here we need ~6 acres of watershed per acre of pond, but if you get really lucky and hit a spring which is sourced by a lot more area than you think, then bonus! I didn't get lucky in the pond, but there is a good spring that dries in the summer up hill that runs into it for a few months out of a year.

To be perfectly honest I don't know what my watershed is, but I think it is around 10-12 acres or so into my 0.7 pond based on the little research I was able to do myself. I am a tad worried that some of our drier summers will cause quite a variation in height, but not about to drain drinking water tables with a well to fill a pond. I don't believe 6 acres per 1 acre claim either.

Annoyingly just down the road a quarter mile away a new house was built with an artesian (sp?) well which had so much back-pressure the water sprayed out of the lid like a fire-hydrant until they could cap it better. No pump required. I would probably hit the salt layer below before I saw water like that and be able to raise ocean fish. Oh, and we get natural gas in our wells which makes things "interesting".

-Mark
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#275536 - 12/15/11 05:46 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: liquidsquid]
JxxxOxxxE Offline
Lunker

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 20
Loc: OK
more questions....I guess this shows how far I'm willing to go to get this done...



How many people have built their own 2+ acre pond out of flat ground? This is why my cubic yards are so high.

I've been looking at the idea of buying a motor scraper to try to do the majority of the work. Maybe a CAT 613B (11 yard), a 615C (17 yard), or a Deere 862B (17 yard). I wonder how much of the pond can actually be done with the scraper.

I've been kicking some more math around....as an example in a 613B, say I can get 10 yards in, with a 10 minute cycle time. Thats 60 yards an hour, 600 yards in a 10 hour day. In 90 days I could move
54,000 yards. I dont know if those numbers are realistic or not...

Time I've got and have no problem using....Money I've got, but am not willing to invest the same amount that I paid for the land...

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#275537 - 12/15/11 06:05 PM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: JxxxOxxxE]
jludwig Offline


Registered: 05/14/11
Posts: 1417
Loc: Central Kansas
Do you own a good sized tractor? If you do, you could buy a scraper to pull behind it and move dirt much faster than a scraper and it will save you from being beat to death.

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#275562 - 12/16/11 09:41 AM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: jludwig]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 24027
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Have you dug any test holes to the depth that you want the pond? If you haven't, I'd strongly suggest it. If you run into ground water, the motor scraper won't do much good.......

If you do run into ground water, just remember that if you don't pack clay into the pond bottom/sides, your water level will go up and down according to how wet it is out.
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3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

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#275649 - 12/18/11 02:37 AM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: esshup]
JxxxOxxxE Offline
Lunker

Registered: 12/04/09
Posts: 20
Loc: OK
I do not own a tractor nearly big enough to do any major work with....


I did dig 4 12' deep test holes a while back. This was within a week of rainfall, and never did hit any water. I think the clay content of the soil is so high that most of the water runs right off...I wouldn't mind trying a 20' hole or so, but don't have the means to dig it...

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#275653 - 12/18/11 07:45 AM Re: Gathering Ideas in Central Oklahoma... [Re: JxxxOxxxE]
Sniper Offline
Fingerling

Registered: 04/02/10
Posts: 529
Loc: North East Texas
A pound of planning is worth a ton of dozer work.

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