Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Bass Pond - is it even possible ??

Pond Boss Subscription - $35….. mini-excavator rental - $500….. 8.5 acres homestead in western NY - ~250K…. advice from Pond Boss Forum – priceless !!

Okay… So this is my first post to the forum, but I am sure it will be far from my last. Looking for some advice on a few things and from all the reading I have done so far I know I am in the right place. I am in the early stages of determining what it will take to build a pond on my property in western NY. Property is an old farmstead home with a few farm plots and a creek running through the middle of the property. My ultimate goal would be to build a min 1 acre pond primarily for fishing (LMB).

What I am up against? My soil looks to be of the sandy loam nature and I hit the first stages of bedrock anywhere from 5-10ft deep depending on location. Not total slab at this depth but VERY large pieces of rock which exist above the dolomite. I do have a few wet lying areas on the property which I hope might be beneficial.

Where I am at? I have read the soil maps & dug my test pits (10/22) but don’t really know what they are telling me or where to go next.

I attached a copy of my soil maps (bad news) and a table/pic which shows the six pits I dug (also seems to be bad news).

The 3 listed in blue are still open (the others I filled back in as rock was hit too shallow or I never saw hide nor hair of any water). Where I hit water the water table looked to be at about 3-4 ft down. I ended up hitting rock in EVERY SINGLE HOLE to the point where I couldn’t really did much further without widening the hole or getting bigger equipment. Not sure if this was truly slab rock or simply larger pieces of the bedrock above the dolomite layer.

So here in lies my issue…. Every one of the holes that had water in them collapsed in on themselves within 30 mins or less. One of these I ended up having to widen to almost 8 ft around just to get the depth to 9ft (pit#2) where I hit large rocks. I believe this is due to the soil type being too sandy so it slides in on itself.

So here are my questions at this point:
•How do I even keep the test pit open to monitor water level since it fills in on itself continuously so you can’t keep it more than 5ft deep… ??
•Should I even bother to keep the pits open even if they are only 4-5 ft deep, but I can see standing water in them?
•Am I truly “SOL” at this point or is there still a possibility to even a smaller pond in the area where the water table is 3-4ft deep??
•Two of the pits were bubbling continuously… almost like they were spring fed?? Is this possible that there could be a spring under the bedrock? Or just air escaping?

Just trying to understand next steps at this point and what I should watch for…. not even sure what options I would have to build a pond with the soil and bedrock I am faced with.

Finally – I know that anything is possible with $$$$… just wondering what is reasonable/achievable given that I am a working class “joe” and my pockets aren’t bottomless…. Am I fighting a battle I can’t win ??

Thanks!
Bummin Backyard Bass Fisherman in NY

Hello trlsrocny and welcome to Pond Boss.

The answer to all of your well thought out questions is... I don't know.

The good news is is though that we have people here that actually DO know.

So hang on and wait for people that actually know what they are talking about.

Since water seeps quickly into the test holes, you can assume the soil is porous. Collapsing soils are strong indicators of poor plasticity and sandy soils. That's a problem. But, if the water stays in the hole, you probably have a high water table. If that's the case, you may have to build an excavated-style pond rather than a reservoir with a dam.
I think you should bring in a local soils expert to analyze what you have. You might be able too sell some sand. You may not have good soils, but you may still have an opportunity, too.
Since you don't have long experience dealing with soils, bring in an expert and pay a consulting fee...or, check with the NRCS and see what they think.
It'll be worth the time and effort.

Welcome to the forum!

I'm 5-6 miles to your NE as the crows fly. The bad news is that I'm a newbie with ponds too.

I'd recommend giving the DEC fisheries people in Avon a call. I emailed them about cattail control and while they gave me marginal news, they tried to be very helpful. At the very least they should be able to lead you to a soils expert. Speaking of the DEC, I think you're looking at an excavated pond. I don't know for sure but my guess is that they won't let you dam that creek even if you had the clay. There was a guy near us that built a pole barn in his back yard (literally 30 yards from his house). He had to tear it down because the DEC considered it "wetlands."

Regarding the water in your test holes... keep in mind that the whole area is pretty saturated right now. I have standing water in my yard. A word of caution: ground water ponds go low quick when you have a dry spell. This is really important if you can't get more than 9' deep. You'll want every inch of that depth as often as you can - especially going into winter. Mine went several feet low in June, July and into August. I'd much rather have a pond with a good seal.

I have a good deal of clay in my soils so you should be able to find some good lining materials fairly close. The geology is slightly different North and South of Ridge Rd. If I had the funds for a reno, I'd triple the size of my current one and tell 'em to dump the spoils in your yard!

It looks like there are several ponds near you (use Google or Bing Maps on Satellite view). Any luck talking to the owners about builders or soil structure? With a bit of luck you might become fast friends with a farmer that has some equipment. You could also try to talk to the water department in your town or the one to your north. If they can't give you details on the soils, they'll at least know who does a lot of work in the area.

Sorry I couldn't give you more specific advise. I wish you the best of luck. Keep us posted, I'm very interested in how things turn out for you.

Try this from a prior thread.

Contact Mark Cornwell who is a fisheries science prof in upper NY. He knows a guy up there who has built thousands of ponds in the area.

CORNWEMD@Cobleskill.edu

You could also call Bob Lusk as he worked the area (NY) a bunch.


Here is info from prior thread.

The Nov/Dec 07 issue of PB mag has an article by Doc Cornwell on building NY ponds and pond building legend Ed Nadeau (60 years exp and 5000 ponds in NY). Doc Cornwell can be reached at CORNWEMD@Cobleskill.edu -- see A. below and one on design considerations for Northern Ponds --- :

Nov/Dec Pond Boss Mag.

A. TEN LESSONS FROM A POND BUILDING LEGEND. Cornwell and E.V Nadeau discuss 10 important lessons for pond construction.

Thanks for all the great responses so far. Looking to get all the info I can to avoid any "pitfalls" as I embark on this project. I think the main point is to get the right people involved who have experience locally.

Hey Manris. Nice to see a local pond boss member! Yeah I am going to start with the DEC and see where that gets me. I know I will have to go the excavated route, would be nice to tap the creek for some water supply. Don't know what they will think about that. Thanks for the offer on the soil. I wish that would help alot of my problems... but yes you are right on.. I used to live on Slocum backing to the oar beds.. lots of the good ole red clay over there. I miss the ore beds I used to back up to.

Yeah I am gonna monitor the test pit for the next 9 months or so to see where it goes. Right now it is at 2' below ground level. So we will see where it goes.

There is one pond right two houses down. Will have to stop in and see how the process went for them. But as it looks now I will have to bring in some clay to get anywhere. Lots of sand and dolomite seems to be the main theme.

Thanks for the advice. Will have to start the questioning process with the town as well to see where that might get me.

Thanks ewest. I will see about ordering that back issue if possible and reach out to Mark Cornwell and see if that can get me anywhere. Any contacts at this point get me one step closer to fishing one day in my back yard again.