Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Pondowner Responsibilities

The recent interaction I had with Titan50 over his drainage pipe has raised a few questions for me. I have mentioned before, that I equate the fish in my ponds as livestock. Probably due to my background. As a boy, we ran Angus cattle, as did many of our neighbors. A great deal of my time was spent building and mending fence. If some of our cattle got out over on the neighbor, it didn't matter what the value of that cow was, or that the neighbor had the same breed of cattle on the same type of ground. What mattered to us, was that we had failed in our task to properly contain our animals.

Yes, cattle get out occasionally. Accidents happen, usually in the form of a tree blowing over on the fence. That didn't mean that it was alright to leave the gate wide open, and hope they didn't go through it. We were still bound to do the best job we could to restrain them.

I've read a lot on here about taking care of YOUR water, YOUR fish, and providing the best environment for them as possible, all while striving to be a good steward of the environment.

Well, what happens when YOUR fish escape through YOUR spillpipe and find their way into your neighbor's pond, or, even a public BOW? Black Crappie, anyone?

Certainly I am not aware of any method to prevent fry from escaping, while maintaining adequate water flow out the spillpipe. And yes, Mother Nature seems fond of handing out 100, and even 500 year flood events here in recent years. But I still don't believe that gives me the right to leave the gate open.

As an example, here in Indiana, triploid GC are legal for stocking into private waters. You must have a permit to stock them into public water. By law, the hatchery must come to your pond, and place the fish themselves. The state mandates that you should "take every precaution possible", to prevent their escape, and "Do not use grass carp if there is a high likelyhood of escape". They even go as far as to recommend an aquatic herbicide over the fish.

So what happens if they swim out through your spillpipe? Even though the fish are sterile, could the state make a case against you?

Again, I'm not talking about a flood event, that is out of anyone's possible control. I'm talking about a good hard rain that lasts for awhile, and puts 8" of water out through your unprotected spillpipe. As the pondowner, could you be held responsible, in any fashion, for the escape of your fish?

Just because a fish is native to your area, doesn't mean that it has to exist in every BOW does it?

Are there, or could there be, any legal issues possibly at work here?

That's a good question. I think it has to be answered on a state by state basis, and I don't know if there IS a universal answer. Unless tagged, or branded like livestock,I don't think there is no way to trace a fish back if a particular fish were to be found in public waters.

It's also important who brings legal action (gov't or private) and what resources they have behind them.

I also think the infraction gets more serious with non-native fish species.

Black Crappie in Indiana or the Midwest, in my mind, are already there.

The fish in every pond were either stocked or came from some where upstream. Like esshup said unless you tagged every fish you stocked and every single fish you ever caught. Even then, not every fish would be tagged.

I think it comes down to personal morals.

For me, jludwig nailed it. We can discuss who has the most resources, and where the burden of proof lies, until those cows come home. Fact is, if my pond is the only one around with Black Crappie in it, and my pond's unscreened drainage is at a higher elevation than my neighbor's pond, and he suddenly finds BC in HIS pond, I'm gonna' be pretty sure where those fish came from.

So, should I make an effort, as a responsible pondmeister, to try and limit the chances of my fish escaping? Or should I do nothing, and hope he either can't, or is unwilling to front the resources necessary to pursue any legal action that might be available to him?

Remember, this can also go the other way just as easily. My ponds are on two different elevations, with my property line behind the upper pond, at a higher elevation yet! If my neighbor should build a pond, there is a very real possibility that his overflow could find it's way into my pond.

Should I expect him to at least make an effort to restrict fish travel through his overflow? Or resign myself to the fact that he subscribes to the "whatever happens, happens" philosophy?

Would there be legal recourse available, or would I be forced to hope that his moral integrity would preclude such an event in the first place?

It seems to me, that if I profess to be a responsible, ecologically minded pondmeister, then I am morally bound to do all in my power to try and lessen the chances of my fish escaping into private, or public waters, irregardless of whether I think any damage might be caused by their introduction.

Anything else would strike me as hypocritical behaviour on my part.

Are the black crappie in the same pond as your HBG?

MRHELLO, I don't have BC in any of my ponds. That was a hypothetical example of what could happen in the real world.

esshup, Sunil, and jludwig: thanks for your thoughts on this matter. I admit to being surprised that there were so few responses. Many of us have ponds, but the species of fish present, the sizes of the ponds themselves, and the aquatic vegetation can all differ considerably from one members location to the next.

However, the one thing we all have in common, coast to coast, is that somewhere in our ponds is a provision, or pipe, or structure to allow excess water to escape. And with it, possibly some fish.

Either I'm crazy for even bringing the subject up, or there hasn't been any legal proceedings brought to bear against a pondowner that made the national news. Out of sight, out of mind.

Where I live, If you had complained 60 years ago that you didn't like your neighbor's sewage running down the ditch in front of your house, you would've been considered a nut. Most of the county residents did it. Try it now.

30 years ago, we didn't have a county landfill. Everyone had their own "dump", in a holler somewhere. No matter the runoff drained onto your neighbors property. That's a fasttrack to a lawsuit these days.

5 years ago, if you had asked the guy sitting next to you in the bleachers at the high school football game, to put out his cigarette because you didn't appreciate breathing second-hand smoke, you mighta' got a poke in the eye. Now, he puts it out or he's removed by security.

In a lawsuit happy society just looking for something to bring to their attorney's attention, it's only a matter of time before a pondmeister somewhere has to toe the line and pay the piper.

I am with sprkplug on this one. I thought this tread would get more responses. Times are constantly changing. Laws are a reminder of it.

Not a real good idea to put too much of this out in the open. No objection with you guys doing so. I try not to put legal stuff here.

Think about this. If we do a thread like this and the consensus is that escaping fish are the liability of the upstream pond owner that could be viewed as an industry custom and practice which could be used against one of our members.

I could only hope for my GSF to escape and not come back.

But they worked extreamly hard to get to the pond so I am sure they want to stay, plus they get an easy meal.

I hope to someday be at my pond when we have a large rain so I can watch and see how the fish are able to swim up such a large side or hil to get to the pond.

Good point Eric.

Perhaps I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking about blowback from having your fish leave your pond.

If you are talking about your own conscience, then do what you can to prevent your crappie from leaving your pond.

In my own opinion, I don't think there are any absolutes when it comes to how fish get from one BOW to another.

Like I have said before there is not any BOW above me so any fish has to come from down stream which there is more of a wet weather creek that runs through the property, but it is not through my pond.

Now on a heavy rain my pond over flows to another water hole so to speak, and may make it to the creek.

I wondered if you would weigh in on this, ewest. I certainly understand your reluctance to provide specifics, given your profession.

If I am destined to be the first member to have a thread pulled because the topic was deemed too dangerous for public discussion, then I can accept that.

It was my hope that a forward thinking, progressive institution such as PB would be willing to supply input, on a subject that affects every one of us, and perhaps more importantly, will surely have an even greater impact in the future. Obviously, a large percent of members here make their living performing some type of interaction with ponds, or lakes. I understand that. But I would hate to think that this discussion got shelved because of it's possible impact on someone's bottom line. Then again, in today's world it usually all boils down to how much black ink you've got on the books at the end of the year. Perhaps I shouldn't be too surprised.

Maybe I can even turn this to my advantage. In the future, when the rules, regulations, and mandates catch up with us, someone will need to be in a position to supply systems that allow water to escape the spillpipe, while retaining the fish, and remaining relatively blockage free.

I could stick my head in the sand and hope the problem never materializes, or I could get my butt in gear, and start planning for what I consider the enevitable, now.

Nothing wrong with improving MY bottom line along the way. I like black ink, too.

Actually, I think only a small percentage of members here make their livings working with ponds. I might even think less than 10%.

Also, I think I'm missing your point, sprkplug.

Sunil, you are quite correct. My thought processes and my typing fingers failed to properly synchronize when I made that statement.

As far as missing my point, I'm sorry , but I am unsure as to how I can make it any clearer? It is not my intention to keep beating a dead horse, especially when the race has been called off.

If you would like, feel free to PM me, and I would be happy to break it down for you. If any other members are also confused, they may feel free to contact me as well.

No problem with the thread. It is not even close to being a pull the thread type.

One thing to consider is claims like that are very costly to bring and defend. When you compare that to the amount of damage done (actual damage not theory or anger) it makes little sense to pruse. All states are different. In many private ponds are just that and the F&W agency won't get involved assuming no exotics are involved. There are some very interesting legal points as well. Generally speaking wild game is owned by the person who captures it and is not treated like cows (domestic animals). Most states define LMB , BG etc as gamefish so the question is are they treated as wild animals or domestic stock. If they are wild and go on someone’s property they are owned by them and not you so you should not be liable for that. However if treated as domestic stock the opposite would be true. For example a wild deer that goes from your food plot to a neighbors corn patch and eats it down is not your problem but if it was your cow that is a different story. Lots of other legal questions as well.

Thanks a million, ewest. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. The wild animals vs. domestic stock issue is especially interesting. I would think, that if your pond resides solely within the boundaries of your own property, and is not fed by any body of water owned by another individual, or the state, that the animals within that pond could be considered domestic stock. Especially if they were on a feeding program. However my grasp of Indiana's legal system, and it's interpretations, leaves a lot to be desired.

As far as damages caused by escaped fish, I agree that anger and aggravation wouldn't count for much. But I sure wouldn't want to be the guy that allowed some of my fish to escape through an unprotected spillpipe into the brood pond of a local fish hatchery, or how about a few female BG introduced into an enthusiast's all male trophy BG pond?

Like you stated, lots of questions. Thanks again.

re: the wild vs. domestic issue. Years ago when the State of Indiana offered fish to stock private ponds, the stipulation was that the fish were property of the state, and you had to allow anyone that wanted to fish on your pond the opportunity to fish. Now, they didn't put up signs saying "fish here", but.......

Nobody that I knew took the fish from the State. They don't offer that anymore.

Our state offers free fish. The free fish just allow the game warden access to come there and check for fishing licenses.

Lawyers can interpet the law many ways. But pretty much all the ponds around here are stocked the same way. So fish loss shouldn't impact a downstream pond that much.

I remember that, esshup. I don't know anyone who took them up on it either.

jludwig, I agree that the vast majority of the time, the impact from escaped fish would be minimal. But it just takes that one time that causes a problem to set the legislative machine in motion.