Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Muddy water Help for specific muddy problem?

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and hoping some of you pond gurus out there can help.

First, let me say that I know there is a search function here and that this whole forum is about muddy ponds and that I should try and research my problem before bugging you all. But please bear with me. I have been searching and about an hour of reading still isn't netting some specific info I need that works for my situation.

Ok, I'll be as brief as possible. I live in upstate NY and there is definitely a lot of clay in our soil. I have a small earth pond that gets a muddy brown each summer and after trying various things that didn't really work, I stumbled upon this forum and am convinced that alum/ lime is the next thing to try.

My pond is an oval roughly 20 X 30 feet or maybe 1/8 of an acre? The sides are quite steep and it's actually about 14 feet deep in the center.

Can anyone tell me roughly how much alum and lime to start with? I will plan on doing a test jar first. How much alum to put into a smallish jar? And if it works, how much to put in my pond? I want to start off conservatively as I have fish and my pH, which I just tested tonight, is only about 6.5. I know the alum can drop it further and that the lime can temper it.

And how do I apply each?- the alum first and then the lime? Or mix them together? I do have a sump pump and a 40 gallon garbage can I can use. How much of each should I be mixing into 40 gallons to apply a safe amount in my pond?

Thanks so much for any help you can give.

Hello Karmann and welcome to the Pond Boss forums.

Experts?

I'm not a muddy water expert, but all the answers that you are looking for are in this thread:

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=124005#Post124005

Thanks guys; I will continue reading to hopefully find my answers. So far a basic one is: I keep seeing "ac/ft" I'm assuming that stand for "acres" and "feet" but what is the actual equation saying? And how does one calculate how many ac/ft are in their pond?

Am so grateful to have found this site!

What fish are in your pond?

What does the surrounding 100 feet around the pond look like?

Is there vegetation in the pond?

Have you done a soil sample?

How old is the pond?

Why do you think it gets muddy?

We need more info. Posting 2-3 pics of your pond would help greatly also.


I'm sure someone can help as long as you provide enough data.


Those answers will help the experts here. I'm sure they will want more info though.

Hi missouridave!

There are approx. 100 - 120 ornamental fish in the pond (5 koi; the rest are goldfish and orfees.)

The pond has been established for 10 years. There is grass growing all around it and along one edge, about 10 feet away are some shrubs/ trees.

There is a little vegetation.

No sample done yet. Do you mean the soil right from the pond or surrounding it? Where would I get that done? I have done a pH test - it's around 6.5.

10 years old.

Why it gets muddy? Now that I've been reading here, I strongly suspect suspended clay.

I will go out and take a few pics

Oh and I plan to do the water in the jar test to see if it settles on its own. If not, it's probably suspended clay, yes?

And if it doesn't settle I think my next step is a tablespoon of alum in a gallon, right?

First, welcome to Pond Boss. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I'll be much help. Hopefully, somebody else will have some good answers.

I believe you are right about the suspended clay. I also believe that the suspended clay is due to the ornamentals, goldfish, and koi.

The carp are doing the job they are best at -- rooting up the bottom.

Maybe somebody else will have some good ideas on how to clear a pond full of various carp family fish. Reducing their numbers, or somehow solidifying the bottom are about the only solution I know of.

Ken

Ken,

But I thought that suspended clay was one thing and fish (or something else) just stirring up the bottom was another. As in the first is chemical and the latter is mechanical.

How can the bottom be solidified? Do you mean as in lining it? Or is there something organic that will do it?

In the meantime, I've got a test jar sitting and I'll see if the stuff settles or not.

I think I am becoming more confused.

Karman,

Since your pond only muddies in the summer, I am fairly certain your muddy water situation is due to feeding and spawning of your ornamentals. Kois and, without a doubt, Goldfish churn your bottom up constantly.

While this is suspended clay, it is no colloidal (negatively charged) clay. Suspended clay will readily settle out of the water column where colloidal clay never will.

Alum/Lime will clear your water...for a day, maybe less....Don't waste your money. Your fish will happily muddy it right back up.

BTW...You may have STOCKED a hundred or so ornamentals, but those critters multiply in a big way without predators.

Personally, I would add 600 pounds of hydrated lime to kill off a bunch of the ornamentals. Three weeks later add 5 Channel Cats and if you can get them correctly sexed, add 10 female LMB also to control future Koi/GF offspring.

ac/ft = amount of water needed to cover 1 acre of land 12" deep in water. Which is also 325,851 gallons of water.

Take the size of your pond (surface area) and convert it into acres. An acre is 43,560 sq. feet. Take the depth of the pond and wag the volume. (or swag for a more precise volume)

Hi Rainman,

Ok, so last night I put a sample bowl of pond water to sit. 24 hours later, there is nothing- and I mean nothing- that has settled. Does this change your opinion?- or have I just not let it sit long enough? Or something else?

Karman, in your earlier post you said the muddiness only occurs in the summer...to me, this infers the water is clearer the rest of the year. Your test jar needs to set a week, undisturbed to see what settles out. Can you post a high resolution picture with a white background in case the turbidity is organic in nature and not clay at all?

Karman, in your earlier post you said the muddiness only occurs in the summer...to me, this infers the water is clearer the rest of the year. Your test jar needs to set a week, undisturbed to see what settles out. Can you post a high resolution picture with a white background in case the turbidity is organic in nature and not clay at all?

The pond is pretty much frozen over from Dec. thru Mar. In April and Nov. the water is clearer and greener; from May thru Oct. it's pretty brown and muddy looking. The visibility in the early spring and late fall is better; but I still wouldn't say it's great.

In the first photo, everything, including the pond, looks a little greener than it really does. Second pond photo was taken from higher up when it was a little more overcast. You can see how small the pond is with the bench for scale. I think I once estimated it at around 75,000 gallons but I don't remember the formula I used.

First bowl photo was taken without flash; the second with flash. It's now been sitting over 48 hours.

The bowl really refracts the light...it looks virtually clear to me.

Your "jar test" needs to be in a sealed glass jar.

I am no expert by any means when it comes to water chemistry and can not offer explanations as to why it occurs but I can tell you that in the fifteen years of dealing with "koi ponds" for my customers your not alone with this problem. I have had numerous customers over the years that have had the same issues as yours with the water clarity changing throughout the seasons. It is usually the same circumstance ie; ponds with no plants, too many ornamental carp, and no filtration system. As mentioned above by rainman the fish will root the bottom while feeding and breeding. Most ornamentals especially as far north as you are are dormant throughout the late fall through early spring and not really peaking in their activities until summer, thus explaining why the changes in clarity. As fish activities peak so does the amounts of clay, fish poo and etc stirred up in the pond, Also as mentioned earlier there are by now a lot more fish than what you had originally put in and with that comes the increase in waste produced by the fish. The amount of waste will increase as the peak of activities increase during the summer drastically changing the chemistry of your water. It would be interesting to know what your seasonal ph readings are and how they differ from a normal pond throughout the seasons. Something in this chemistry increase, wether it is a biproduct of fish waste, clay, organics or a combination of everything causes the water to hold the suspensions differently than normal. Again, I do not know how I just know it happens. What we have done for our customers is 1) to place about 2 foot of 2-3" gravel in the bottom of the pond to help trap the sediments. 2) We typically reduce the number of fish to 1 inch of ornamental carp for every ten gallons of water. 3) Then we get plants involved to utilize the fish waste and help to take care of the water. This can be done in a variety of ways. Easiest is to plant them right in the pond itself. Usually 20-25% of ponds surface covered with plants. If you do not want plants in the pond then you can build a bog filter. If you choose to do this pm me and I will give you step by step instructions. This has worked in the past and based on what you have mentioned above I think it will work for you also.

Karmann, any update on your jar test?

Naw, my life has been hijacked by work lately. Have some time off in August and I plan to redo it properly then as well as do a better pH test. (but as an aside, I lazily left the bowl to sit for over a week; still no settling at all.)

Will definitely post when there's something new to say.

Your jar needs to be sealed and left to stand to prvent algae growth and other organisms clouding the test results...pun intended.

Oh, and work can wait for ponds!!!