Pond Boss Magazine
http://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
braywstone10, Tim Schneider, Shiner21, JWhite, kbh229
14334 Registered Users
Forum Stats
14334 Members
37 Forums
33112 Topics
453125 Posts

Max Online: 1039 @ 03/28/13 01:44 PM
Top Posters
esshup 23254
Cecil Baird1 20043
ewest 18174
Dave Davidson1 12431
Theo Gallus 12307
Who's Online
15 registered (beastman, Bob-O, FireIsHot, Custom 68, TGW1, Ricefarmer05, ScottyD, rjackson, Shorty, RAH, Quarter Acre, Rick O, Theo Gallus, Bill D., FayetteTX), 225 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Topic Options
#264578 - 07/13/11 08:13 AM Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp
MRHELLO Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1838
Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
Would like to know if Koi, Gold Fish, or Israeli Carp can hybridize with one another?

I believe someone may have dumped some in one of our ponds and just wanted to see what the odds are of them reproducing, if any will cross with each other, and how many offspring we may be talking about.

Please let me know.

Thanks


Top
#264646 - 07/13/11 05:12 PM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: MRHELLO]
CJBS2003 Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker

Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 10454
Loc: northern VA
Israeli carp and koi are the same species(common carp), just selectively bred to look very different and to meet very different needs. So they absolutely will breed with each other. Goldfish are a close relatives and they will hybridize with common carp. This is documented in the wild and in hatcheries. Usually it is under less than ideal conditions though, pollution, etc...
_________________________
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.

Top
#264717 - 07/14/11 09:28 AM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: CJBS2003]
MRHELLO Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1838
Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
So are common carp and mirror carp the same as well? I was thinking that Israeli Carp were similar to Mirror Carp.

How large do Koi get in comparison to Gold Fish?

Does anyone have a picture of a cross between a Gold Fish x KOI? (How large do these get?)

If they are left to breed in the wild will they all revert back to the common carp color?

I am sure I can not get all of these out without draining the pond, but could they be controlled with LMB or other fish?

Thanks

Top
#264781 - 07/14/11 07:48 PM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: MRHELLO]
Bill Cody Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 10935
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Goldfish generally grow to only 12"-14". Koi can get 28"-30" maybe more in optimum conditions. They are different genera but can hybridize resulting in fertile offspring as CJ says. I never saw one of these hybrids. Not sure about their maximum size.
Israeli and mirror carp are the same species.
From the web:
The difference between mirror and common carp is both genetic and visual - biologically they are similar. The mirror carp was the first mutation of common carp, owing to two alternative genes, the S allele and the N allele. The genetic term for a mirror carp is "ssnn" (all minor). Common carp have an even, regular scale pattern, whereas mirrors have irregular and patchy scaling, making many fish unique and possible to identify by sight, leading to most carp in the UK over 40lb being nicknamed. This lack of scales is widely believed to have been bred in by monks in order to make the fish easier to prepare for the table.
The shape of a Mirror Carp is different to that of a Common Carp. Mirror carp are generally having a fuller and more rounded shape. Some Mirror carp are rounded in the shape of a dinner plate. A large swollen belly is not uncommon in larger specimens. The colors in a Mirror Carp are dependent on the water in which it lives. Gravel pit carp can be almost black; Carp, which are found in clay ponds, can be a light gray or brown with large areas of red/Orange/Gold coloring.
The Mirror Carp is identified by irregular scales dotted haphazardly over its body. Anglers have subdivided the patterns of the scales into easily identifiable descriptive patterns. Fully-scaled Mirror Carps are completely covered in scales of different sizes. Mirror carp generally have a fuller and more rounded shape than Common Carp. A large swollen belly is not uncommon in larger specimens. The colors in a Mirror Carp are dependent on the water in which it lives. Gravel pit carp can be almost black, whereas those found in clay ponds can be a light gray or brown with large areas of red, orange or gold coloring.
Contrary to popular belief, Leather carp are not Mirror carp without scales; there is a distinct genetic difference. Leather carp are permitted a few scales; however, the dorsal row of scales is either absent or incomplete. Leathers also have reduced numbers of red blood cells, slowing growth rates. A perfect fully scaled mirror carp are completely covered in scales of different sizes.



Edited by Bill Cody (07/14/11 07:50 PM)
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#264809 - 07/15/11 07:12 AM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: Bill Cody]
CJBS2003 Offline
Ambassador
Field Correspondent
Hall of Fame
Lunker

Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 10454
Loc: northern VA
Couple of photos of hybrid common carp x goldfish can be found here.
_________________________
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths.

Top
#264896 - 07/15/11 11:48 PM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: CJBS2003]
MRHELLO Offline
Lunker

Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1838
Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
Would all of these fish be ok for the table?

Top
#264904 - 07/16/11 12:01 AM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: MRHELLO]
esshup Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 01/26/09
Posts: 23254
Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Sure, why not? I guess it all depends on your taste buds......
_________________________
www.hoosierpondpros.com


http://www.pondboss.com/subscribe.asp?c=4
3/4 to 1 1/4 ac pond LMB, SMB, PS, BG, RES, CC, YP, Bardello BG, (RBT & Blue Tilapia - seasonal).

Top
#264905 - 07/16/11 01:56 AM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: esshup]
John Monroe Offline
Member

Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 1088
Loc: East Central Indiana
I had the Israeli carp living with the KOI for 15 years and I never saw one off spring or hybridization in that time. I'm sure the bass, bluegill and White Amur grass carp were controlling the offspring. My Israeli carp I estimated to be 30 inches long and about 15-20 lbs while the KOI were in the 2 ft. range and maybe 10-15 lbs. The mirror carp picture in the book I am reading "Small Scale Aquaculture" looks very much like my Israeli's and I wonder if they eat filamentous algae as mine did. If you have the Israeli and the KOI in this pond I am curious if you have any FA pond scum. With them I didn't and without them I do for the first time. This is what my Israeli looked like.

_________________________

Top

Today's Birthdays
Scott Bradford, shawn krull, used2roof
Recent Posts
Rip Rap, newly built pond...grass seed?
by beastman
1 second ago
My first otter!! Now what?
by TGW1
11 minutes 25 seconds ago
Making Maple Syrup
by FireIsHot
13 minutes 46 seconds ago
I love Fall
by TGW1
23 minutes 24 seconds ago
East Texas Feeding...........
by TGW1
31 minutes 13 seconds ago
November/December 2017 is on the loose
by Bill D.
51 minutes 41 seconds ago
Florida Bass under 6 inch Ice
by ewest
Yesterday at 09:34 PM
Selecting new property for a pond site
by snrub
Yesterday at 07:28 PM
F1 vs Florida Bass and corrective stocking
by esshup
12/06/16 11:10 PM
Locations for Alum - Houston Area
by esshup
12/06/16 10:57 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
More pond rehab questions
Renovating pond and stream please help with advice
A few sunfish
Rabid Beaver Pond contours
Rabid Beaver Pond sunrise
Rabid Beaver Pond sunset

2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide