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#264578 - 07/13/11 08:13 AM Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp
MRHELLO Offline
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Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1838
Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
Would like to know if Koi, Gold Fish, or Israeli Carp can hybridize with one another?

I believe someone may have dumped some in one of our ponds and just wanted to see what the odds are of them reproducing, if any will cross with each other, and how many offspring we may be talking about.

Please let me know.

Thanks


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#264646 - 07/13/11 05:12 PM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: MRHELLO]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Registered: 01/19/09
Posts: 10192
Loc: northern VA
Israeli carp and koi are the same species(common carp), just selectively bred to look very different and to meet very different needs. So they absolutely will breed with each other. Goldfish are a close relatives and they will hybridize with common carp. This is documented in the wild and in hatcheries. Usually it is under less than ideal conditions though, pollution, etc...
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#264717 - 07/14/11 09:28 AM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: CJBS2003]
MRHELLO Offline
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Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1838
Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
So are common carp and mirror carp the same as well? I was thinking that Israeli Carp were similar to Mirror Carp.

How large do Koi get in comparison to Gold Fish?

Does anyone have a picture of a cross between a Gold Fish x KOI? (How large do these get?)

If they are left to breed in the wild will they all revert back to the common carp color?

I am sure I can not get all of these out without draining the pond, but could they be controlled with LMB or other fish?

Thanks

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#264781 - 07/14/11 07:48 PM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: MRHELLO]
Bill Cody Online   content
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Registered: 04/18/02
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Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Goldfish generally grow to only 12"-14". Koi can get 28"-30" maybe more in optimum conditions. They are different genera but can hybridize resulting in fertile offspring as CJ says. I never saw one of these hybrids. Not sure about their maximum size.
Israeli and mirror carp are the same species.
From the web:
The difference between mirror and common carp is both genetic and visual - biologically they are similar. The mirror carp was the first mutation of common carp, owing to two alternative genes, the S allele and the N allele. The genetic term for a mirror carp is "ssnn" (all minor). Common carp have an even, regular scale pattern, whereas mirrors have irregular and patchy scaling, making many fish unique and possible to identify by sight, leading to most carp in the UK over 40lb being nicknamed. This lack of scales is widely believed to have been bred in by monks in order to make the fish easier to prepare for the table.
The shape of a Mirror Carp is different to that of a Common Carp. Mirror carp are generally having a fuller and more rounded shape. Some Mirror carp are rounded in the shape of a dinner plate. A large swollen belly is not uncommon in larger specimens. The colors in a Mirror Carp are dependent on the water in which it lives. Gravel pit carp can be almost black; Carp, which are found in clay ponds, can be a light gray or brown with large areas of red/Orange/Gold coloring.
The Mirror Carp is identified by irregular scales dotted haphazardly over its body. Anglers have subdivided the patterns of the scales into easily identifiable descriptive patterns. Fully-scaled Mirror Carps are completely covered in scales of different sizes. Mirror carp generally have a fuller and more rounded shape than Common Carp. A large swollen belly is not uncommon in larger specimens. The colors in a Mirror Carp are dependent on the water in which it lives. Gravel pit carp can be almost black, whereas those found in clay ponds can be a light gray or brown with large areas of red, orange or gold coloring.
Contrary to popular belief, Leather carp are not Mirror carp without scales; there is a distinct genetic difference. Leather carp are permitted a few scales; however, the dorsal row of scales is either absent or incomplete. Leathers also have reduced numbers of red blood cells, slowing growth rates. A perfect fully scaled mirror carp are completely covered in scales of different sizes.



Edited by Bill Cody (07/14/11 07:50 PM)
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#264809 - 07/15/11 07:12 AM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: Bill Cody]
CJBS2003 Offline
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Loc: northern VA
Couple of photos of hybrid common carp x goldfish can be found here.
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#264896 - 07/15/11 11:48 PM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: CJBS2003]
MRHELLO Offline
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Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1838
Loc: N.E. OKLAHOMA
Would all of these fish be ok for the table?

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#264904 - 07/16/11 12:01 AM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: MRHELLO]
esshup Offline
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Registered: 01/26/09
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Loc: Grovertown, Indiana
Sure, why not? I guess it all depends on your taste buds......
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#264905 - 07/16/11 01:56 AM Re: Koi, Gold Fish, & Israeli Carp [Re: esshup]
John Monroe Offline
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Registered: 06/03/02
Posts: 822
Loc: East Central Indiana
I had the Israeli carp living with the KOI for 15 years and I never saw one off spring or hybridization in that time. I'm sure the bass, bluegill and White Amur grass carp were controlling the offspring. My Israeli carp I estimated to be 30 inches long and about 15-20 lbs while the KOI were in the 2 ft. range and maybe 10-15 lbs. The mirror carp picture in the book I am reading "Small Scale Aquaculture" looks very much like my Israeli's and I wonder if they eat filamentous algae as mine did. If you have the Israeli and the KOI in this pond I am curious if you have any FA pond scum. With them I didn't and without them I do for the first time. This is what my Israeli looked like.

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