Pond Boss Forums AQUATIC VEGETATION Controlling unwanted plants Whitecap evaluation - six weeks in.

I thought I would provide an update on my HBG pond, post treatment with a fluridone product. (Whitecap). To recap, this pond is 2/3 acre, max depth of 11', average depth of approx 4'.
As this pond was built in the early seventies as a swimming only BOW, it had a large pea gravel beach, with a vast area of shallow water. The pondweed coverage was extensive, to put it mildly. Over the last two summers', I spent a lot of time and money trying to control the pondweed, and it's partner in crime, Filamentous algae. The Diquat, and Cutrine Plus flowed freely, but the effects were always short-lived. I could knock it down, but not out. There are 5 huge GC in this pond, they loved the grass my weedeater scattered over the water's surface, but never put a dent in the pondweed.

This past winter, I decided that something different had to be done. The usual recommendation in this scenario is to try and lessen the excessive nutrient load in the pond, usually by some sort of watershed filtration, the planting of beneficial and controllable plants to better utilize the existing nutrients, or both.

Sounds easy enough, but in practice I don't think many of us could afford to alter our pond's watershed to the degree that would be required to alleviate the problem. I certainly couldn't. I liked the beneficial plants idea, but would rather get the existing plant growth under control first.

After much deliberation, I decided to go with a Fluridone product. This is not really a poison as much as carotene inhibitor. In basic terms it "starves" the plant to death. As such, it is very slow acting. It is also non-discriminate. Good plants, bad plants, Fluridone makes no distinction, (or almost none, there are some plants that are resistant.)

The trick to making this stuff work, is to maintain a specific level, in ppm, in your water. This means that a heavy rain could wash your product right out the overflow, while the influx of fresh water dilutes the remaining concentration to an ineffective level. Not very appealing for a chemical that cost around $20-$25 an OUNCE. Yep, an ounce. Fortunately, it doesn't take all that much to treat an average pond.

I ordered the product, (Whitecap), and waited through the wettest, rainiest Spring in recent memory. Finally, on Saturday, May 7th, I caught a break. The pond level was at normal pool, and the forecast looked relatively dry for the upcoming week. I went for it. I closed off the primary spillpipe, added the fluridone, (by boat), and crossed my fingers. My aerator was running twelve hours, at night.

After two weeks I noticed that the grass at the water's edge was beginning to turn white, as were a handful of cattails that I normally keep mowed down, but had decided to leave as an experiment.

Then came the rain. I sweated bullets as I watched the water rise 10". It was no where near going over the emergency spillway, but I knew my precious 45 ppm minimum concentration was being put to the test. After a week of nightly aeration I figured whatever damage that could be done, was done. I opened the spillpipe and brought the water to normal pool. All of the grass that was covered by the higher water level, turned white. I took that as a sign that the product was, at least, still partially viable.

Four weeks in, and the pondweed was hurting. It was turning brown, and starting to fall down, or collapse. At least in shallower water. Interestingly, this is also when my new Weedrazor and rake arrived. Through their use, I was able to sample the weeds out in deeper water. they were much greener, which initially puzzled me. They were showing definite signs of distress, just at a slower rate.

Then, last Sunday, 5 weeks after treatment, I could no longer see any pondweed in water shallower than about 3', All that was left was a dirty, silty residue on the bottom. The water was beautiful, with about 6' visibility. Good for this area. Wearing a mask and snorkel, I was able to explore deeper water, and found the pondweed still there, but all brown and crumbly. I surmise that the deeper stands of weeds are slower to react to the fluridone, due to the more limited transmission of sunlight into the depths. That's just a guess on my part, however.

What is most certainly not a guess, is the FA problem. It loves it's new, competition free environment. I sprayed the edges with Cutrine Plus Sunday morning. By afternoon, it was gone.

Then came Tuesday, two days ago. I went over to feed about 6:00 pm, the water had gone from beautiful, to something that looked like strong iced tea. The fish wouldn't eat, which is unheard of from my HBG. Visibility had dropped to 24". Fearing the worst, I switched the aerator to run 24/7.
Wednesday morning was much the same. No fish piping.

Tonight, Thursday, the water looks a little better. Visibility is 30" The fish fed some, but still not normal. My other, untreated and un-aerated ponds have also darkened considerably, but not as much as the HBG pond. I'm sure there are particulates in the water from the decaying weeds and algae, and the aeration is probably stirring it up. Combine that with the normal, summertime water staining, and that may account for some of the discoloration. I'm not sure if a bloom would establish in this treated water? In addition, A couple weeks earlier I had begun to notice schools of fry in the pond. Now, with the weeds gone, I don't see nearly as many. I'm hoping that the decreased cover has resulted in increased predation by my HBG. That would help explain their diminished appetite. The situation will be watched closely.

In summary, the Whitecap did what I was told it would do. My experience suggests' that it starts off slowly, then accelerates toward the end. 16 ounces of this product absolutely took care of my pondweed problem, but for how long? I am sure it will come back, but perhaps I have a chance to get some beneficial plants established in the meantime, to help use the nutrients.

Also, I am concerned about a possible fishkill, due to a lack of any oxygen providing plants. I will move my diffusers to shallow water for the winter, to try and offset their disappearance.

Would I do it again? it's too soon to say. I'll revisit this question a year from now.

Sorry about the long post.

Great post... Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm pondering Whitecap for a duckweed issue I'm having.

Great post SPRKPLG - I'd like to hear some feedback from our herbicide experts on your experience. I'm considering using some in my repro ponds for the first time ever and need all the advice available.

I am curious as well with the tea stained water as I have that issue with a few bodies of water and wondering what may have caused it as I have not used any chemicals.

But like you the fish will not eat, not sure if they are eating something else in the water or sicke, dead, etc.

I hope someone can explain this a little better and let us know if there is anything to worry about.

Thanks

Update.. Friday morning, 6/17.

Water is looking better, secchi disk readings confirm 36" visibility.

Aeration still on 24/7.

water temp is 80 degrees @ 24" depth.

I did a complete walk around of the pond, vegetation is nil. All that remains are brown dusty spots on the pond bottom. The cattails are hanging on, but do not look at all well. I am unsure if they will eventually succumb to the fluridone, or recover after some time has passed.
I threw out some AM as I walked around, and generated feeding activity at all locations. Things are looking good.

I will continue to moniter water clarity, essentially to see how "sterile", for lack of a better word, the water becomes. I know that very clear water is usually regarded as detrimental to the food chain. Hopefully, I can reach a balance somewhere.

I intend to research some threads on beneficial bacteria, as an aid to try and help clean the water, since the plant growth has stopped.

I am cautiously optimistic.

Is this the pond that has the cement "breakwall" on one side? The first one on the right as you drive in?

Yep, that's the one. My HBG/swimming pond. Good memory, buddy!

Update, Sat, 6/18.

Water clarity improving at an astounding rate. Secchi disk readings now confirming visibility in excess of 72"... Very unusual for this area, and this time of year.

Aeration still at 24/7.

Water temp is 82 degrees @ 24"

The HBG fed voraciously tonight. They appear to be back to their normal behaviour. The water is beautiful and weed free. I have been using minnow traps to sample fish for a week now. Tonight, all traps were empty. I walked the entire perimeter, I saw 5 minnows total. I believe the absence of pondweed, combined with the improved water clarity, is having the desired effect. Very heavy predation of small fry is occurring.

Moving forward, I will try to post an update every few weeks, to let any interested parties know how my experience with Whitecap is working out. As off now, I couldn't be happier with the product. It is still too early to pronounce this experiment a success, as I'm sure there will be wrinkles to iron out, and challenges to be overcome, down the road.

For now, I'm looking forward to taking the family swimming tomorrow!!

Update, 8/14, 14 weeks after treatment.

Water has held a good bloom for the past 10 days or so. Visibility has been 18". Aerator running 24/7.

We are experiencing a mild drought, which has lowered the ponds approx. 12". I can find no trace of underwater vegetation anywhere in the pond. All cattails have died, leaving no visible trace behind. The bloom has shaded out my FA, and I have not needed to treat with Cutrine since Spring. This lack of vegetation, coupled with the lower water level, has created a smorgasbord for my LMB.

Took the kids fishing today, decided to try and harvest a mess of HBG for supper. Huge success, fish were cooperative and pondweed fouled hooks were a thing of the past.

I am feeding AQ500 once a day, in the evening, and fish have fed well all summer. All fish caught today weighed between 3/4 - 1 lb.

Swimming and fishing experiences have become much more enjoyable for myself, and more importantly, my family this summer. Very pleased with the Whitecap treatment thus far.

spkplug thanks for that update. I have a question though. Did you have any Chara issues? If so did the whitecap work on it as well? I have a BIG Chara issue and am still wondering what I want to do about it.

Thansk,

RC:
I'm afraid that I don't suffer from any Chara problems, so I can't vouch for the Whitecap's effectiveness on it. I would think that since Chara is a form of algae, that fluridone would not be the chemical of choice. However, maybe someone else knows better and will chime in. Good luck!

Hey sprkplug thanks,

I know I can use Cutrine, but was just wondering if there was something else out there better. I apprecaite your response.

Very interesting post. I am curious about the cattails. You said you normally keep them mowed down but left them for experiment. Did you have growth above the water surface and the product also killed them or did you have them cut below water surface to have an affect?

Also, did you remove the dead cattail or leave them in the pond after they died off?

I have a stand of cattails consisting of 8 plants. I keep them mowed down whenever they reach 2 feet tall, or so. They have never spread beyond that one area. About three weeks after applying the Whitecap I was mowing and trimming around the pond, and noticed that the cattails were turning white. They actually showed the effects of the fluridone before anything else. I decided to leave them, and see what happened. They continued to grow, reaching about 3 feet tall before they turned completely white, then brown, and eventually just collapsed.

There were so few leaves that I didn't bother raking them out. Whether or not the plant, root and all, is dead I don't know. There is no sign that they were ever there, but they certainly may re-sprout next year.

Thanks for the info! Was curious how this stuff may compare to other methods of cattail control or erradication. Sounds like if someone had cattail issues and excess vegetation it could actually address multiple things at one time. Pretty interesting stuff, thanks again!

Effects from fluridone treatments are often observed on SOME emergent plant species; cattails, flat sedge and shoreline grasses to name a few. But, several other emergent plant species exhibit little or no symptoms in association with fluridone treatments. I can't explain the reasons, other than differing levels of tolerance.


From personal experience, I can attest that a single drop of a fluridone product spilled in one's boat or truck-bed can do strange things to grasses where boat-water is drained or along side a (my) driveway after rainfall washes it out.

So, be very careful how such products are handled, stowed or transported - and definitely don't utilize a pail that was employed in the course of a fluridone application for other purposes around your lawn/garden (ask me how I know).


Also, fluridone (Sonar, Avast!, Whitecap, etc) has no activity on Chara or any other forms of algae. If anything, the growth of algae may be stimulated by the release of nutrients from decomposing plant-masses that were controlled by a fluridone treatment.

So Kelly in your opinion what is the best teatment for Chara? Say I have 70 percent coverage? What would you do to get it down to 25 percent?

Thanks,

In Bill Cody's infamous words, "it depends".
Reducing 70% coverage down to 25% during this time of the year - and assuming you wish to "minimize" the risks of a DO-crash: maybe use a grapple-hook tied on the end of a long rope to drag out as much as possible - then spot-treat small areas of the remaining Chara with CUTRINE PLUS GRANULAR - staggering two weeks between spot-treatments to avoid killing too much Chara at one time. Whether two weeks is enough, and determining how large of a spot-treatment to apply is anyone's guess. It depends on your pond's dissolved-oxygen profile. If it has a high level of DO, you can be more aggressive. But, if DO is already low, any disturbance or treatment could send it below the threshold for fish-survival.
Regaining control of any plant or algal mass that covers 70% of a water-body is a tricky and risky venture any time of the year, and especially in the heat of late summer when fish are involved in the equation.

In what part of AR are you located? Anywhere near Prescott?

Update on Whitecap:

Awesome. Pond (fish) came through the winter just fine. I was worried about not having any vegetation over the colder months, but then it never really got very cold. The FA was getting bad again, so I treated it with Cutrine a couple weeks ago, and that took care of it.

NO pondweed whatsoever, after an application of Fluridone in May of last year. I had a few cattails that succumbed to the Whitecap also, and they are absent this Spring as well.

Love this stuff. Will see how long it takes for pondweed to return, but right now I couldn't be more pleased.

Great job on keeping us updated. I am going to take the $ plunge and go for fluridone treatments about 4-6 weeks prior to seining my reproduction ponds this Summer. I am worried about the available nutrient load resulting in a FA explosion and that makes seining equally difficult, if not worse, than submerged vegetation [pondweed].

Can someone weigh in on the value/usefulness of adding a shading/dye product immediately after fluridone application to help prevent an FA problem? Would be deeply appreciated!

All I know is I've been told a dye will increase the longevity of the fluridone product due to less UV degradation. It should keep the algae at bay somewhat even though nutrients may be made more available for it.

I had very good results with Whitecap last year but unfortunately had several heavy rain events and sure enough some of the pondweed came back. I'd like to reapply but I can't justify the cost. I'm going to go back to the grass carp for pondweed and chara that I can get from a supplier that is a friend -- hopefully for a good deal. Going to add tilapia for the filamentous algae and see how that goes too.

I've thought about heavy crayfish stocking in repro ponds and they do well in my RES/BG pond, but obviously get hammered in the SMB pond when spawning adults find them and can't get a population established. I have also considered GC but can't imagine trying to seine up a 25 lb GC while seining for YOY SMB.

I sure hope a shot of dye will help me prevent crazy FA after fluridone treatment...or I'm looking at major manual removal with rakes I guess.

One year in, no pondweed whatsoever. However, I do have two cattails growing in the shallowest corner of the pond. I will pull them by hand and see how many come back. As I recall, Whitecap wasn't really touted as being effective on cattails, so perhaps I should be grateful for their unexpected demise last year, even if it were unintended and temporary.

It's such a pleasure to be able to see all the HBG nests',without the accompanying thick mat of vegetation. The FA, however, is another story. Something has to step in and utilize all those available nutrients, and the algae is ready and willing. We had an extremely mild winter, with very little ice cover, and the FA remained vibrant all during the colder months and really took off in the early Spring.

I knocked it down six weeks ago with Cutrine, but knew it was only temporary. I decided to try an approach that has been somewhat controversial in the past here on the forum. I treated with Cutrine again, last weekend, and added Aquashade this morning.

Rather than weigh the pro's and con's of pond dyes, which have been discussed many times here in the past, I'll just touch on some factors that influenced my decision to add it, right or wrong.

The HBG pond is dual purpose for our family. I grow fish in it, but we also utilize it for swimming, nearly every day in the Summer. Weeds don't make for an attractive swimming hole, nor do they make it any easier for my LMB to control my HBG offspring. That was the impetus behind applying the Fluridone product in the first place. No recruitment of HBG, and no weeds in the pool. A win/win situation.

This same balancing act is the reason I didn't wait for a bloom to shade out the FA..... swimming in weak pea soup isn't much fun. I know better than to think I can beat Mother Nature, but that doesn't mean I have to give up without a fight. Her plans for a BOW don't always agree with my vision for my BOW. I love my weed-free pond. I can't find any fry or minnows, despite active nesting by LMB and HBG. They will show up for a couple weeks, then disappear altogether entirely. Little to no place to escape predation. The majority of my LMB are now actively taking AQ500, despite never having been on it from a hatchery.

So, I supply the bulk of the food in this pond. I'm hoping that this will offset any decrease in natural forage caused by a lack of phytoplankton, due to the dyed water. I'm also gambling that my bottom diffuser aeration system will compensate for my lack of aquatic growth, or at least temper it enough to prevent a low DO situation.

One year after my Fluridone treatment, and all is well. Let's hope it stays that way.

Sounds like your plan is well thought out...