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#251459 03/14/11 07:38 PM
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Hello Pond Boss Team-
Trying to figure out what to do next. Visibility is about 18 inches. Water has a brownish color. Lake is 20 acres located in Deep East Texas- lots of pine trees.

calcium 7ppm
magnesium 3ppm
sodium 14ppm
potassium 5ppm
boron .06ppm
carbonate 0ppm
bicarbonate 38ppm
sulfate 22ppm
chloride 21ppm
nitrate less than .01ppm
phosphorous .03ppm
pH 5.94
conductivity 118
hardness 2 grains CaCO3/gallon
hardness 29ppm
alkalinity 31ppm
total dissolved salts 109ppm
BAR 1.1

My understanding is with an alkalinity of 31 that my lake will hold a bloom... I intend to fertilze asap. I am concerned about the pH and if I still need to lime, or there may be something wrong with my water as it appears to want to keep the brown color even when other lakes in our watershed just up the valley from us are blue and clear.

Thanks in advance for any help! I appreciate the many contributors here.

Tripp

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See something new every day. I have never seen a pond/lake with all bicarbonate alkalinity. That may be why the salts are 109.

Was the lake like that last summer (brown bloom not green) ?

I would add some lime to increase the calcium/carbonates. It will also add to the existing buffering ability to reduce ph swings. Then it is low on P which a good pond fertilizer will cure as that is the limiting factor probably. If that does not give you a green bloom then we need to get Bill Cody to look at the micro-nutrients and plankton species.

May want to look at this
https://srac.tamu.edu/index.cfm/event/getFactSheet/whichfactsheet/112/

Last edited by ewest; 03/14/11 09:30 PM.















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Originally Posted By: Tripp S.
Hello Pond Boss Team-
Trying to figure out what to do next. Visibility is about 18 inches. Water has a brownish color. Lake is 20 acres located in Deep East Texas- lots of pine trees.

calcium 7ppm
magnesium 3ppm
sodium 14ppm
potassium 5ppm
boron .06ppm
carbonate 0ppm
bicarbonate 38ppm
sulfate 22ppm
chloride 21ppm
nitrate less than .01ppm
phosphorous .03ppm
pH 5.94
conductivity 118
hardness 2 grains CaCO3/gallon
hardness 29ppm
alkalinity 31ppm
total dissolved salts 109ppm
BAR 1.1

My understanding is with an alkalinity of 31 that my lake will hold a bloom... I intend to fertilze asap. I am concerned about the pH and if I still need to lime, or there may be something wrong with my water as it appears to want to keep the brown color even when other lakes in our watershed just up the valley from us are blue and clear.

Thanks in advance for any help! I appreciate the many contributors here.

Tripp


pH should be at least 6.5. If you can get it up to a fairly stable 7.5, even better.
That is an extremely low NitAte reading. Did you check Ammonia and NitrIte levels. It appears that you have very little active bio-conversion. An algae bloom will prolly be difficult to achieve given the NitrAte levels and the low Phosphorus levels.
The water color could very well be tannin from the trees.
Fertilizing is indicated to get the nutrient level up.
Perhaps someone else has an alternate solution.

Last edited by Instar; 03/14/11 09:21 PM.
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Originally Posted By: ewest
Was the lake like that last summer (brown bloom not green) ?

I would add some lime to increase the calcium/carbonates.


Ewest-
I'm not sure if the brown color is due to a bloom, but yes it has really retained this brownish appearance all year for the last several years.

How much lime do you think would be sufficient?

Thanks again. This help means a lot.

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What was the visibility all through last year ? See this from the archives http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92624#Post92624

If your co-op has a dump/spreader truck (most carry 10 tons) I would add one truck (10 tons) and put it in at least 3 places around the pond (more than 3 would be better). I try to put most in shallow areas (3 feet deep) with at least one application in a deep area (off the dam). Upstream locatons are good for shallow areas.
















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Originally Posted By: ewest
What was the visibility all through last year ? See this from the archives http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92624#Post92624

If your co-op has a dump/spreader truck (most carry 10 tons) I would add one truck (10 tons) and put it in at least 3 places around the pond (more than 3 would be better). I try to put most in shallow areas (3 feet deep) with at least one application in a deep area (off the dam). Upstream locatons are good for shallow areas.


Ewest
As far as the clarity, I don't have reliable info at this time, however I have purchased a secchi disk and will take readings from now on.

We actually do have a pontoon boat available and we were considering 4-6 tons per acre as discussed in another thread. However it seems our total alkalinity is not as low as we thought it would be, so if we spread it over the lake with the pontoon boat you seem to feel we can do considerably less than that (recommended 1/2 ton per acre)?

If you feel like dumping it around the edges would be sufficient it would save us some amount of labor and technical issues involving the pontoon boat (we currently need to find a tiller-steer motor for it, etc.).

Thanks,

Tripp

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Yes assuming your alkalinity is 31 you can do less than 4 tons per acre. You will likely need to add a truck of lime every year to 18 mths. to keep good alkalinity.

Using the boat to spread it all over is better but not necessary as your alkalinity is ok now. If you were starting from scratch (new lake with low alkalinity < 20 ppm) then 4 tons spread all over would be the way to go. But that is not your situation. You do need a spreader truck used at least 2 upstream and one deep water location and more locations would be better. The spreader truck can dump some in a pile that you can load on to the boat and take out to the middle and shovel off. I do that sometimes as well as the other. I load it on a piece of plywood on the boat near the front and take it out and shove the lime off the plywood as I move around in deep water with a trolling motor. Other than a little shoveling it is very easy.
















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You have IMO received good advice so far. I assume your P analysis was for total P and not dissolved or ortho-phosphate. I always prefer the ortho-P analysis. Your N:P ratio of 1:3 is low and unbalanced for creating a bloom. N:P ratio should be at least 10:1 to 20:1 for good bloom production.
Perpetual brown color could be tannin stain from pine needles and leaves? Do the other local lakes you refer to have lots of pine trees in the riparian zone?. Cloudiness - visibilities of 18" may be due to stain and suspended bottom detritus and not plankton? Are there gizzard shad in the lake?

Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/15/11 07:35 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
You have IMO received good advice so far. I assume your P analysis was for total P and not dissolved or ortho-phosphate. I always prefer the ortho-P analysis. Your N:P ratio of 1:3 is low and unbalanced for creating a bloom. N:P ratio should be at least 10:1 to 20:1 for good bloom production.
Perpetual brown color could be tannin stain from pine needles and leaves? Do the other local lakes you refer to have lots of pine trees in the riparian zone?. Cloudiness - visibilities of 18" may be due to stain and suspended bottom detritus and not plankton? Are there gizzard shad in the lake?


Mr. Cody-
Although we have always attributed our coloration to tannins from pine needles, the other lakes in our same valley (we have flown over it in a small plane several times) have a much cleaner blue appearance even though they have the same pine trees. I fish a lot of private water in this area and the water is unusual. The lake is primarily spring feed from a boggy, shallow, beaver pond (we have removed most of the beavers), just upstream from the lake. The lake is 70 years old.

In answer to your other question, yes we have MONSTER gizzard shad, dinner plate size in some cases.

How should I raise my N:P ratio? I usually use Trophy Maker fertilizer on other properties I help manage. Will that work here or do you recommend another brand?

How might the gizzard shad be affecting things and what steps should I take to deal with them?

Per our discussions here I am prepared to take 25 tons of lime and spread it around the banks as much as possible if you concur that should be sufficient to further raise total alkalinity and get my pH closer to 7 and stabilize it. Does this sound right? My only problem is I am afraid the configuration of my lake does not allow us any bank access in upstream areas.

Thanks so much, we will be making a donation to support the forum, as all of the advice we have gotten here has been of great help.

Tripp

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Tannins and boggy beaver pond can contribute lots of tannins esp if an inflow is fairly constant. Bogs can generate large amounts of tannins depending on conditions of and type of the bog. Tannins do not break down quickly naturally. Your lake and nearby lakes prove ALL waters are individual unique water bodies and they are sometimes not very similar despite being close together.

G.Shad when lacking plankton as food will 'work' sediments for alternative foods thus they can at times create significiant amounts of turbidity (low visibility) that is comprised mostly of suspended bottom sediments and not plankton.

Increase nutrient ratio buy adding various type of fertilizers depending on what is needed. Producing blooms does require proper alkalinty. Achive alkalinity first then add fertilizer. Test nutrients then add N or P as needed. Fertilizers are aavailable in different formulations depending on requirements. Trophy Maker Fert is a good starting product.

I think numbers of Gshad can be thinned by electroshocking and gill nets. Seek professional advice as second opinion.

Fertilizing becomes problematic is the lake has significiant flow through or low water retention time. This has to be evaluated by someone knowledgable.



Last edited by Bill Cody; 03/17/11 08:04 PM.

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Ok we have our lime ordered- we decided to do 50 tons which is about 2.5 tons per acre. We will probably try to put 10-20 tons in the beaver pond that feeds our lake. Since our water comes in through there and sits in there like a big stew-pot before it flows into main lake we are hoping this will have a longer term positive effect. We are also hoping by doing this much lime it may last a few more years versus needing to lime every year or so.

So this remaining 30 tons we will spread on the main lake. Probably putting 10 tons around the bank (bank only accessible to about 25% of lake) and the remaining 20 tons spread around.

My questions are-
1. We have a pontoon barge at our disposal so we are planning to spread the lime on the water by loading the lime onto barge with a front end loader, and then take the barge out and use a gas powered water pump to wash the lime off the deck. Does this sound like the right way to attempt this?

2. Is the lime dangerous or irritating in any way? In other words, do we need protective clothing, eye protection, and/or facemasks? A friend told me it probably will have the consistency of flour so we would probably end up covered in it.

Thank you for any help and please feel free to give any tips if we haven't considered anything. We are both excited and maybe a little tenuous about the amount of work involved and the logistics.

Thanks,
Tripp

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The power wash works well.

Anything the consistency of powder will get into your lungs. I wouldn't PERSONALLY worry about protective clothing but would protect my eyes nose and mouth.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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1. Yes that is a good way to put out lime.

2. Like DD1 said - eyes yes use protection. I would have a couple of masks just in case but doubt you will need them. Be sure to wash off the boat and try to avoid the motor intake pulling up white lime water right after you put it in. - go in reverse so you are moving away from the spray and motor intake.




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Good points Eric.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP

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