Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose Trout question

You got me. I'm not familiar with the river. If it helps it's an area that is good for walleye fishing.

I caught it in 1999 and it was 10 lbs, 12 oz. Biggest palomino I have ever seen caught. The PA state record for one was caught out of Lake Erie and was substantially bigger though.

You're right about that. I used to fish the South Branch of the Potomac in WV fairly often. Some people would drive the road adjacent to the stream looking for golden trout then jump out and start fishing when they saw one. I gave up on trying to catch them out of public streams. Within a few hours of being stocked they'd either been caught or seen every lure/bait known to man.

The one you caught sounds like it was very nice, I've always wondered if they'd gain more natural looking colors like other trout that survive in the wild for a long time do.

Cecil,

Thanks for posting that. I'm going to print it out, and post it on the refrigerator in the work lunchroom.

Where I work, about half the employees are from WV, western MD, or western/south-western PA, where these types of fish are common due to stocking.

Since they think I supposedly know a little bit about fish, I have frequently been baited into lunchroom discussions over trout -- mainly rainbow, golden, and palomino trout. Although most only fish about three or four times a year behind the stocking trucks, they consider themselves experts. I'm not sure many could tell the difference between a goldfish and a golden trout.

These same people call themselves "hunters." I think I posted elsewhere, where I brought a beautiful large and healthy doe, that had been gutted and prepared for butcher, to an acquaintance. He nearly lost his breakfast when we transferred the carcass from my truck into the back of his pristine GMC Suburban. I lent him a tarp to put it on in the back of his vehicle. He brought the tarp back to my wife, in a garbage bag. He was wearing latex gloves when he handed her the garbage bag.

I'm sure glad I have the good fortune to own a pond and a little bit of land. I'm sure glad I have good friends who still know where food comes from. I feel I've at least made great headway with my youngest grand daughter (age 7), who likes venison, who is interested in the innards of fish, and who isn't afraid to put a worm on a hook.

Mostly un-opinionated,
Ken

I wonder how people like that would have survived 150 or so years ago?? Or is it strictly a function of how they were brought up and they are that far removed from our hunter/gatherer ancestors?

Where I grew up, it is more like 50 years ago, not 150 years ago.

One of my uncles spent his life from 1941 to about 1973 overseas, from the mid-East, to Bikini, to the Panama Canal Zone. His kids -- my cousins, generally spent 9 months of the year in government compounds. They spent 3 months a year on the farm. One time, when we were about 10, one of these cousins was surprised when we picked eggs. He thought eggs were "manufactured in the commissary." Thankfully, all of these cousins turned out to appreciate where food really comes from.

I hope this doesn't become a controversial thread. But, it is very sad that so few understand where everything in our lives comes from -- food, clothing, energy, transportation, etc.

Yet, I am very inspired by the young people I see who complete degrees in agriculture, fisheries management, animal sciences, etc. In day-to-day life, they are so far ahead of many who graduate with degrees in engineering, mathematics, computer science, etc. When I hire a young MS or PhD graduate in my field of science, it is rare for most to fully grasp and understand day-to-day life. They look at me as a "gross old man" because I raise, prepare, and butcher much of my own food. But, when we last had chickens, they had no problem paying $4/dozen for brown eggs, and they rave about the "butterfly" trout filets I bring them as gifts.

Ken,

Ever wonder what would happen if our society lost it's power grid?

I like to debate people that have a high opinion of our society compared to our ancestors. They tout all the inventions we've come up with and how primitive our ancestors were blah blah blah. When I ask them how much they had a hand in inventing those things and if they could reinvent them if they had to they become strangely silent. A very small percentage of our species are brilliant at anything and most are just consumers. Most of our species are just followers and couldn't light a fire without matches if their life depended on it. And they wouldn't have a clue on how to harvest and prepare wild game, and even less of them once the bullets, manufactured steel, and gun powder ran out.

Just musing of course.

Ken, as you know there's a huge difference in book learning and hands-on learning. Personally, I'd rather have a good engineer that has learned his trade by hands on and doesn't have the piece of paper rather than an engineer that has a piece of paper but doesn't know what end of a tool to hold.

I really think they should have at least one class in grammer school (middle school) that teaches kids where their food, clothes and other essentials come from and how they're made. That might open up some thought processes. I think that if they wait 'till high school, it might be too late.

Cecil...maybe it's semantics....but how did a mutated rainbow suddenly become a pure strain golden...No matter how you slice it or what it's called, it's a rainbow trout crossed with other rainbow trout that have a history of the mutated gene and not an entirely new golden species.

The end of the small family farm and the mass exodus from rural to urban put the nail in the coffin. I was raised on my Grandfathers farm in N. Fla. where Hog killins, cane grindings etc were commonplace and participation in those things was mandatory as soon as you were old enough to shell a pea or gather an egg...as we got older we'd graduate to ringin a chickens neck...help stuff the sausage...and finally to the "prestige" skills like delivering the coup de grace to the hog or cow! I raised all my children to understand and appreciate the beauty and simplicity of that life. My two boys (now 30 and 26) have killed, cleaned and eaten more wild game and prepared...planned- enjoyed more vegetable gardens than most. They know and understand why watermelons depend on bees to survive and countless other essential facts todays children just don't have a clue about.My baby girl(23) is a better finesse fisherman than me and can still walk through the woods and name 9 out of 10 trees-vines-shrubs-weeds she sees. I try not to think about what has happened to our society....gut-wrenching at best..and I don't want to live in the past and will admit that IF the power grid did go down I would freak out like most people..and I really don't have any desire to put a rifle barrell between a pigs eyes anymore...like a lot of yall just musing!
PS Stuff like OLD Yeller...Where The Red Fern Grows and all Patrick McManus books were required reading for my kids. Did you know that if you talk to 10 kids today 8+ of them DON'T (CAN'T) READ???????

Cat, I wouldn't post that so quickly...read it carefully...what it states are two species is contradicted in the statements.

The original WV Golden trout was a mutant RAINBOW...how did it becom an entirely new Pure Strain Golden if it is a mutated gene RAINBOW...later crossed with Rainbows in PA...there is no new line here...all are mutated Rainbows.

Not sure the name of the movie I was watching, but it sums up many people that do not appreciate what self-reliance is...The City Lady was going to milk a cow and asked which of the three cows was "skim"?

Just because they're all mutated rainbows doesn't mean they'll be the same as a rainbow genetically. I wouldn't call them a seperate species, I think they'd be better described as a subspecies or a breed of rainbows. The first example that comes to mind for a similar situation is the Jack Dempsey Cichlid, a popular, agressive aquarium fish. There is a brightly blue colored variation available a very nice looking fish but from everything I've read they're different from the standard strain beyond just color. Instead of being agressive, they're reportedly a very timid fish and very few of them make it to adulthood as they seem to be particularly susceptible to disease. Just because the golden rainbows are bred to look different doesn't mean that'll be the only way they'll be different than the rainbow. I do agree with you that that doesn't make them a different species, but I think they are a unique genetic strain of rainbow trout that is different beyond color.

I understand what you're saying. A lot of this may just be semantics. I agree that golden Rainbows are being bred for the color but regardless, it is still a Rainbow trout that simply has defferent coloring due to a genetic defect...Why would a Golden Rainbow be thought of as a new species , but an Albino Channel Catfish is not? They are both pure strains, with mutated (defective) genes The Albino is also a genetic mutant, and bred for the trait just as the golden Rainbow is.

The Jack Dempsey Cichlid, as I recall, is a Hybridized fish of several species combined... not from a mutated gene....this is a whole other situation as again the Golden Rainbow is not a hybrid fish.

The reason I wouldn't say they are a unique strain is because when two Golden Rainbows are bred, just like when two Albino CC are bred. the original, non-mutated Rainbows or albinos will also be produced.

Golden Rainbows are not found in the wild, probably because the couldn't survive due to the colors Just as Albino deer or catfish are found in the wild, but quickly succumb to predation because they stand out to the predators. Albinism is just a far more common genetic defect that an odd color defect.

As for the behavior of the golden Rainbows in a pond, the color they have changes how they behave in a more natural setting. The brighter coloring negates all the natural camofauge and prey can see the Golden from a greater distance than a normal Rainbow so in order to survive, the golden has to more agressively chase prey if it hopes to eat...that same color make the golden more easily seen by predators also so in order to not be attacked/seen as often by predator fish, it move higher in the water column, because it's white belly offers some camoflauging when seen from below...The behavior is a theory as it can't be truly known, but pausible because in the hatchery setting, there is no notable behavior difference in golden and normal rainbow trout.

Marvin Emmerson of Crystal Lake Hatcheries is the man that explained all this to me. His family has raised and developed trout strains for well over 50 years and are the producers of the Emmerson strain of Rainbows and they are also the producers of the very brilliantly colored Golden Rainbow Trout some have recently posted pictures of.

I understand where you're coming from with your theory, I just am having trouble with a couple of points. If golden trout were to become more agressive and predator resistant due to their color, I would think it would take many generations of fish in the wild becoming that way due to the most adapted fish being successful. That type of natural selection doesn't have a chance to take place in a controled hatchery environment. I also am not sure that a trout has the ability to think to itself, once released into a pond or stream, "Hey, I'm yellow I better go super crazy for food and be really careful that nothing sees me so I don't get eaten." I suppose that the fish that have that disposition naturally may survive longer than ones that don't, though.

As far as there being a "true" golden trout, I still maintain that it is possible through line breeding. It may vary from hatchery to hatchery as to how far away from the rainbow a golden has been bred. The less intensive the line breeding, the higher chance of a regular rainbow being spawned, and some hatcheries may prefer it that way to keep the goldens more genetically diverse. My line of thinking is that you don't see German Shepherds having Collie puppies, so I would think you could produce golden trout that only have golden trout offspring.

This is the Jack Dempsey I was talking about, which isn't a hybrid. There is a reference to the electric blue one I brought up, as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Dempsey_(fish)

It's from Wikipedia, where anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.