Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Opinions on an old pond (fish in it after all)

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why that surprised me. I feed the catfish in my aquarium shrimp pellets but some of the smaller fish that can't eat them whole pick them up and carry them around in their mouths and eat them as they soften up and can swallow a little bit at a time, despite there being smaller foods they could eat without a problem. I've seen them work on one pellet for half an hour before. I guess it makes sense that one large bite for the same energy as 10 small ones works out better for them. It also reminds me of a time I was fishing a small coastal creek when I lived near Virginia Beach. I was fishing from a bridge and saw what looked to be a headless catfish swimming backwards, coming closer to the surface. Turns out that it was a snake of some sort trying to eat a catfish that was about 3 times bigger around than the snake head first. Not a huge snake fan, and it kind of creeped me out.

Well I stocked the trout today, seem to be doing ok. Went down this evening and caught another small bass, probably about 8 inches, and found a dead sunfish near the shore. The sunfish was probably about 2 inches long, it looked like a blue gill but it looked like it'd been dead a while and I couldn't really identify it. So there are at least two size classes of bass and whatever sunfish are in the pond and at least the sunfish are spawning.

Cool! Did you take any pictures of the trout as they went in?

No, I really would've liked to but it was rainy out when the truck arrived so I left the camera at the house. Have to work this weekend but I'm going to try to catch some dinner Monday, I'll try to get some pics then.

Well after stocking in the rain Thursday and working through sunny 60 degree days all weekend, I finally was able to get back down to the pond today. Woke up this morning and went to get some food for the fishes, came back and took a little pail down to the lake. I threw a couple handfuls in, which wasn't easy with the wind blowing nonstop at 20-30 mph and I could see some of the golden rainbows swimming around below where I was standing on the spillway but they didn't seem to notice the food. The wind was blowing it back towards the shore pretty quickly and with the surface being so choppy I figured they either weren't catching the scent or couldnt see it that well so I threw in a large quantity at once and a few rainbows shot up a few seconds later and started eating the pellets. As I kept adding more more kept coming up to eat but a lot of the pellets got missed and ended up washing up on the shore. Hopefully I'll get better results when it's not so windy. Then I started to fish some which was also a chore with the wind blowing like it was but I caught two more bass and one rainbow. As I was bringing the rainbow in it started raining so that was the end of my fishing. I was planning on releasing but it really hammered the Kastmaster I was using and got a hook in the gills, so I ate it for lunch. I got a few pics but as the weather was iffy I left the camera at the house again, tomorrow it's supposed to be nicer so I'll try to get some better ones then. Here are the pics:






I've caught 5 bass total from the lake, one that was probably about 8 inches and the 4 posted in this thread. They look a little on the thin side to me, what's y'all's opinion on them? I have yet to catch any sunfish although I've seen 3 decent sized ones and one small dead one that washed up on the bank. I haven't really fished for them yet though, still need to get some worms and do that. Based on the size of the bass and the lack of cover in the lake, I'm guessing there are very few sunfish and the ones that are in the lake are probably big enough to avoid being eaten. There is a pretty good quantity of branches down around the property due to the snow we had earlier in the year and the high winds of late. I'm going to talk to the landowner and see if he would be opposed to me putting a few piles in some of the shallower parts of the lake to provide more cover for young sunfish. Also, I'm hoping that as it warms up the sunfish that are present will start taking the pellets as well.

The bass do look on the thin side. It is the end of winter, bass are at their lowest weight for the year now though. Buy a scale and start measuring and weighing each bass and keep records. Then this time next year you can compare the relative weights and see if your management work is making a difference. In all likelihood, you have a classic situation of a pond that has little to no management for many years. Many small stunted bass with not many sunfish which are bigger in size.

I will definitely start keeping track of the sizes of what I catch. As of right now, I'm thinking I'd still like to develop the pond to produce bigger sunfish. True trophy size isn't required, but I don't want a bunch of stunted ones, either. The main reason for this is so my 6 year old daughter and any of her friends that are over can have a good time of catching fish out of the pond. As the current bass population is unknown, would stocking regular bluegill now be a better option than hybrids? If the bass I have caught so far are what to expect in the pond, would 5"+ bluegill be sufficient to avoid being eaten by them? I'm hoping to get the sunfish in the pond to start taking the pellets I'm feeding the trout when it warms up a little and will continue feeding them after the trout are gone if they do. As far as the bass population, there is probably no way for me to control reproduction with them now, if going for large sunfish would it be best to leave them as is or to start taking any over a certain size out so predation is limited to small bluegill? I am not sure what kind of bass reproduction is going on as all of the ones I've caught have been close to the same size.

Also, in walking around the pond since it's warmed up some, there seems to be a pretty good amount of what I believe is muckgrass in the shallow end, extending about halfway out into the length of the pond. There seems to be divided opinions on this algae, as it apparently is good for aquatic insects and fish fry but it makes fishing a pain in the rear. Due to overall lack of structure/cover in the lake, I don't think trying to remove it would be a good idea but I was thinking of maybe raking areas of it out to allow for easier fishing and to develop lanes to funnel fish through it. Anyone ever tried this? Also, due to the fact I don't know how far out it's going to extend overall, I'm not sure if stocking catfish is a good idea or not as it seems like it'd make bottom fishing nearly impossible, although I would like to have some channel cats to fish for. Thoughts?

See if you can catch a few, say a dozen or so sunfish. Photograph each one and then post them on here. We'll get an idea of what species you have. You may not need to stock any new sunfish, but rather just manage the ones that are already in the pond. I doubt any RES are present, so the addition of them would be a good thing. 5"+ RES would work. If you end up catch some of the sunfish and many of them are GSF, then the addition of BG would be prudent.

Can you get a photograph of this muckgrass? Determining exactly what it is really helps in determining how to manage it and if it is of value or detriment.

I think you can still stock CC, if you really want some catfish I see no problem in stocking some. With the bass population you have, I would recommend you find larger, say 10-12" CC to stock. If you feed the sunfish and trout, the CC will jump in as well and will definitely grow much better.

Ok, I'll get some pics of the sunfish if I can catch any. Supposed to be a nice day tomorrow, I suppose I can force myself down to the pond I actually meant to post that it's muskgrass, not muckgrass. At least that's what I think it is. I'll get some pics of it too though, it's easy to catch!

If the muskgrass is what I think it is, it's called Chara. I think it's a PITA, but it does serve a purpose.

Yes, I think that that is what it is, it was identified as chara on some of the sites I saw it at as well. Here's a picture of some I hooked and pulled out as well as one of a small clump along the dam:




Here are a couple of sunfish I managed to catch today, in the second picture you can see more of whatever the above plant is:




The first one looks like a bluegill to me, not 100% sure though and not sure at all about the second. Finally, a couple more trout that I caught for the grill this evening. Released three more that were lip hooked and had a few other long releases. When I am thinking I will be releasing fish, I remove one of the points from a treble hook and bend down the barbs on the other two. It seems to provide more holding ability than a single point hook but is a lot less likely to create a bad hookup than trebles can.




Tried feeding again this morning with no results. I've been feeding from the spillway which is over the deepest water where most of the trout seem to be holding. I'm not sure if they're getting spooked by me being up there throwing the feed or what but I didn't see any take it this morning other than one that came up like it was going to then shot back down. I guess I've put in maybe a pound, pound and a half of food in the past two days but only saw a few pellets taken. I don't want to keep throwing in food that's going to mess up the water. The trout seemed to be pretty agressive in going after the lures I was fishing with. Any ideas?

The sunfish both look like Bluegills to me. The weeds look like Chara, but to be sure, can you take a single strand that's about 10" long or so, put it on a white paper plate or white background and take a close-up picture of it? Does it smell musky if crushed in your hands?

The trout might be fattening up on natural forage. In my pond it took them a few days to get used to the food being tossed out. Same place, same time will speed things up. I'd toss out a handful or 2 each time. Cut back if the food isn't gone in 15 minutes.

Yes I should be able to get a pic of a single strand on a better background. I didn't think to smell it although I'd read it smells garlicy. Does it make a good garnish?

I checked the stomach contents of the three trout I've kept so far, there were some tiny oval shaped blobs in there, like the size of a pencil head, but it didn't look like enough to fill them up. I assumed that it was something near the end of digestion but I'm anything but an expert on that. The trout seem to all be in the deepest 1/4 of the pond. I just can't get them to come up and feed. I'll try again today with a smaller amount, I think I've been putting way too much in, especially since they aren't eating it. I was hoping some that got in towards the shore would get eaten by the sunfish, they seemed to ignore it as well. I'm going to get some worms and take my daughter down to the pond this evening, hopefully I'll be able to get a larger sample of sunfish. I'm pretty sure those two I posted are on the thin side?

The water is probably still too cold to get your BG interested in pellets.
Try feeding a small amount of pellets in the morning and afternoon for awhile and see what happens, like I mentioned before if there's plenty of natural forage trout will happily go after that.

Are you planning on putting in a feeder eventually?

No plans to put in a feeder right now, although maybe in the future. The only place to put it where it could be used at the various levels of the pond being full are on the spillway and it has a diving board and slide on it so I don't think that'd be a good place for it. I think I'm going to rig up some sort of enlarged pouch on a sling shot to try to get the feed out further into the lake and see how that goes.

Modified the slingshot with a small Tupperware cup and a piece of metal clothes hanger, it doubles or triples the distance I can get the feed out depending on how good of a shot I get. I tried feeding the trout in the morning and evening when it's calm and it's worked out much better, they seem to be able to find the food before it washes back into the shore. The water is still on the chilly side, I would definitely say it hasn't made it up to 50 degrees yet. I bought a cheap thermometer to check the temp with but keep forgetting it when I go down. Had a nice rain today so hopefully that'll add some more water into the pond. Here are a couple pics of the small stream that was running into the pond on Friday, this morning it was about twice this size at 11 o'clock and it's still raining Still haven't gotten a pic of the algae yet, I'll try to get it this week.




Here are a couple of videos of feeding time with my daughter, in the second the feed had worked its way back into the shore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3-UNIxgKdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c01bXDQ_oxQ

Received 2" of rain yesterday, pond is up about 4 or 5 inches. Fed this morning but didn't expect any takers as the water temp was only 42 degrees and murky from the rain so I only put in a couple handfuls and didn't observe any feeding.

Streamflow this morning:



Also, I guess there is a wet spring near the swimming area as there was water flowing although I couldn't find a specific spot where it was coming up.



Hopefully the stream will keep flowing like this for a week or two. It's calling for showers Wednesday and rain Thursday, so that is good. Unfortunately the long, shallow area will make the lake take longer to reach maximum depth as it will start filling out in length before depth.

Are those golden rainbows you stocked?

Yes, I stocked 50 golden and 150 regular rainbows. Here's another pic of some of each:

I talked to Arkansas Pond Stockers and Fish Wagon today about their trips to VA to see what sizes of CC they offer. The largest they told me was 6-8" but I looked on the APS site and it says they can sometimes bring larger fish if offered. As recommended, I'd like to get the largest size possible but if 6-8" is the largest is there any point in stocking them in a pond with an established bass population? I'm not thinking about stocking a lot, maybe 100 or so, something to pull out and eat every now and then once they get big enough. I'd like to stock ones that are of a harvestable size since from what I read they may put on a pound or so over the summer, which would mean I couldn't really keep any until the fall.

Other question is what would the positives and negatives be of stocking HBG be right now? I haven't really gotten a good sample of the sunfish in there to judge sizes and types so I'm guessing I should probably hold off until that is done. The largest size they have available are 2 1/2-4", $68/100. The positives I can think of would be these may be more willing to initially take feed than the bg currently in there and would boost the sunfish population some without overpopulating. The negatives are that if I have pure bluegill only right now, they would cross and wipe that situation out if they weren't simply eaten by the bass right off the bat.

I checked about golden shiners but they both only offered fatheads, which I'm doubtful would become established. The only reason I think they would have any chance is that the inlet end of the pond has a very shallow slope so if they stayed there and utilized the chara (still need a pic of a strand) they may be able to establish themselves. Of course, they'd probably do the exact opposite and head to the other end of the pond where the trout and bass seem to be hanging out right now so I'm leaning away from the fhm as I think they'd probably just be a quick, expensive meal.

Not sure how far away you are from these hatcheries, but they are all near VA and could provide you with fish you are looking for...

Zett's Tri-State
Mid-Atlantic Stocking
Delmarva Aquatics
Foster Lake & Pond Management
Southeast Pond Stocking

These all have the fish you are looking for and are within a reasonable drive to pick up your fish and you may even be able to get them to deliver for you...

Two negatives on stocking HBG in your pond.

They don't provide much of any kind of forage base.

If you already have bass, none would survive over a week.

CJBS - Thanks for the links! I am going to take a close look at the SPS one you sent, they seem to be a smaller operation that some of the larger haulers but still have a truck route and will be nearby in a couple of weeks. From their website it looks like their trips only last a day as opposed to several days or weeks. I live about 10 minutes from Staunton, I think most of the places are too far to drive and pick fish up and I don't think it'll be worth paying the delivery fee for the number of catfish I'm looking for. Zetts would probably be the only other viable one from the list and I'm guessing it's probably a little over two hours away, but they do look like some nice sources for fish!

Dave - That's kind of what I was figuring with HBG that small. I was hoping they may work so I could get some to a decent size in a short period of time so the daughter would have something fun and easy to catch. I have seen what looked like a few decent sunfish in the pond but I'm not really sure what the overall population is. As it's been cloudy/rainy and the pond has been hovering around 45 degrees recently it hasn't been the best to get out and try to get a bigger sample. I think a couple of sunny days in the 60s may do the trick though, that's what it took to catch the two above.

The trick is to provide a sustainable forage base and the BG you show are big enough to spawn. I think I would try to find a source for 6 inch BG and forget the cats until I could walk on forage without getting my feet wet. Anything else you add only increases your out of balance condition.

I didn't think the channel catfish would put a big dent in the forage base as far as the bluegill are concerned but you're probably right about it being better to wait. I caught four more sunfish today, all about the same size. One smaller one that looked like these but I didn't take a pic of but here's what I caught, I think they're all bluegill:





Does anyone have any tips on how to keep the fish from swallowing the bait? I was using a size 10 hook and fishing with a bobber and three of the four swallowed the hook. Obviously a bigger hook would keep them from swallowing it but I think they may just pick the bait off of it. These aren't really big enough to eat so I put them back, just hate killing something and it not going to good use. Hopefully they got picked off by some bass.

I also found out there's a second pond on the landlord's property. I'd seen it before but just assumed that by the way the fenceline ran that it was on someone else's property. I am going to ask him some more about it tonight. I am not good at judging size of lakes but guess it's maybe 1/4 acre? Here are a couple of pics I took of it from the road:





The first time I saw this was in the fall when we first looked at the place. The lake was about halfway empty but this pond was at almost the same level it is now. I guess there's a spring not too far above it because there was a little stream running into it then, too. He said that they transfered some carp from the lake to this pond when the lake was almost dry, didn't mention if there was anything else in there. I'm not sure how deep it is but it may be deep for it's size with the steep banks around it. That, with the stream, and the trees around it may keep it cool enough in the summer for trout but I'm not counting on it. If I'm lucky and it is, I'll probably use it to put maybe 15-20 in to grow out and put in the lake this fall. If not, I'm thinking of hybrid sunfish and a few channel cats in it for the daughter to fish for so I could focus on developing bass in the lake. Any other ideas?