Pond Boss Magazine
http://www.pondboss.com/images/userfiles/image/20130301193901_6_150by50orangewhyshouldsubscribejpeg.jpg
Advertisment
Newest Members
Shannon Luthi, SJH-IN-SEK, mark tailor, rwermy, ell
15120 Registered Users
Forum Stats
15121 Members
36 Forums
34958 Topics
478056 Posts

Max Online: 1039 @ 03/28/13 02:44 PM
Top Posters
esshup 24014
Cecil Baird1 20043
ewest 19072
Dave Davidson1 13169
Theo Gallus 12337
Who's Online
8 registered (dreams of ponds, Daniel Powell, snrub, wbuffetjr, Clemsonrob194, MidMoAdam, TGW1, Bill Cody), 132 Guests and 378 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#24846 - 08/07/07 08:50 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 969
Loc: NA
Donnie, do you have a rental outlet like an Ace hardware that can give you a weekly rate on a trash pump, youll only need a small one, even a few nozzles on a garden hose is better than nothing for now, Lowes should of had jet pumps for water wells that work also,15-30 GPM are standard anything at this point may be a help, Ted

Top
#24847 - 08/07/07 09:34 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
dave in el dorado ca Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 3261
Loc: el dorado ca
thanks guys, especially to you donnie, this is a really scary and informative thread.

my pond is down about 4.5 to 5 feet now with the rest of august, september, and october to go. my total was 6 feet of loss last year, and this year i will surpass that \:\(

i dont have bass, tilapia, cats, or carp, so the biomass is perhaps in better control....i do have a boatload of lepomis though. i really hope i dont end up like you donnie, but i'm potentially headed that way right now without an emergency aeration plan.
_________________________
GSF are people too!


Top
#24848 - 08/07/07 09:42 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Bill Cody Online   content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12109
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Tom G. - every pond owner should be scared during a fish kill. A large fish kill is serious business and cause for concern. The results of lots of work, time, effort and often money are floating to the surface belly up.

It probably does not make much difference in the long run weather you use well water or pond water to spray into the air for adding oxygen to the already low DO of pond water during a fish kill. Both types of water have low or no DO to begin the re-oxygenation process. Pond water may have a slightly higher DO to begin the process. You ought to measure the DO of you well water to know what the baseline it has for DO.

Is anyone working of the task of looking up how much oxygen is added to a specific volume of water from the bubbling action of a diffuser? Curious minds want to know.
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#24849 - 08/07/07 09:53 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 969
Loc: NA
Here is an interesting point that Donnie told me on the phone. The DO was the same at the far end from the diffuser as it was directly on top of the diffuser boil.The DO was evenly consumed The water is very green and clarity low and recent hazy hot days > these are text book conitions for this situation so be prepared. Donnie thanks for taking the time to post as I believe you may have saved many more fish for others from your experience.

Top
#24850 - 08/07/07 10:01 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Donnie Castle Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 61
Loc: London, Ky
I am going to Lowes in the morning, to purchase a Wayne lawn sprinkler pump. I have been told by a friend that it should work for aeration purposes also. The pump comes wired for 230 but can be changed to 115, hope instructions come with it.If anyone has better idea please post soon.

Top
#24851 - 08/07/07 10:17 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN Offline
Lunker

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 969
Loc: NA
Bill I have never given much credit to the bubbles giving much oxygen in a pond (large water)situation,I know the number is higher than zero but would still be very low and close to zero.It would also depend on the exact diffuser size,configuration and cfm imput and depth.Im sure waste water diffusers going for high OTR's would be tested in this manner.Ill try get a better answer tommorow.Lifting ability seems to be more of a sought after fearture even though the more lifting capability the more 02 should come into play from bubbles. Let me see what I can find as its a great question and Im not giving a very good answer tonight as its been a long day.

Top
#24852 - 08/08/07 09:00 AM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Sue Cruz Offline
Ambassador
Lunker

Registered: 12/22/04
Posts: 709
Loc: Pompano Beach, Florida
Hi Don - I'm very sorry to hear about your loss of fish.
To answer the question of the oxygen transfer rate at the bubble, a Vertex CoActive AirStation will transfer 5 lbs of oxygen per day at 8-9 foot depth with 1 CFM. As mentioned in previous posts, the majority of oxygen is dissolved into the water at the surface through circulation.
_________________________
Sue Cruz
Vertex Water Features
www.vertexwaterfeatures.com


Top
#24853 - 08/08/07 03:28 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Donnie Castle Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 61
Loc: London, Ky
Went to pond this morning and saw that the pond was covered in large air bubbles, and some sort of brownish/blackish skim on top of the surface. Anyone know if this is also a result of the previous fish kill. I still have some dead fish to remove from the pond around 10 catfish. The smell is getting bad I am going to have get them out this afternoon, or the wife will be on my backside.

I have installed a Wayne Reliant lawn sprinkler pump, it is rated at 5000 GPH, it seems to do the job as it will shoot water up about 30ft and around the same distance outward.

I came in to take a break as the temperature is 97 and mostly hazy according to my temperature gauge, which is no help for the pond.

Also, the pump that I installed has no ground wire, but says to hook one up before using it. I could not find a ground hookup, so I called the company tech service. They told me that when I remove the wiring cover there would be a threaded stem that is used for the ground wire. When I use this stem the pump comes on then quickly throws the breaker. If I remove the ground wire from this stem the pumps works fine, so at present I am using it with no ground. This may not be the stem the tech was talking about, but the only one I saw. I know this is not a safe way to use it but I need it running in the pond now. Anyone that knows about grounding pumps the info would be appreciated.

Top
#24854 - 08/08/07 05:31 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Donnie Castle Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 61
Loc: London, Ky
Never mind, I called the tech back and I finally found it. My next problem is I broke a screw out in it and had to drill it out, now I have no screw to put back in, back to Lowes. I have temporally grounded it to the motor housing.

Top
#24855 - 08/08/07 10:45 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Bill Cody Online   content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12109
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
To those interested, I questioned the oxygen addition value that Sue provided above(5 lbs/day). Here is why. Those good at science please check my math. I am a biologist, not a math man AND you will soon see why.

There are 453 grams per pound. 453 x 5 lbs O2 per day is 2265 grams O2 per 24hr. 2265/24 hr = 94 grams of oxygen added /hr Or 94 million milligrams (an error here). Assume Donnie's pond has 1 million gallons. 1 mil x 3.87 liters = 3.87 mill liters of water in his pond. Donnie's CoActive airstation diffuser we are told should be adding 24 milligrams of oxygen per hour to his 3.87 million liters of water or 24.28 mg/L per hour. If we assume even a wild worst case DO loss of 5 mg/L(ppm) per hour that still leaves 19mg/L oxygen surplus. With anywhere near that much oxygen added per hour his fish should not be dead due to DO loss, they should be dead due to too much DO. What am I missing here? SEE Bergermeister's post below to show what I am missing - Special thanks to him.


Edited by Bill Cody (08/17/07 04:00 PM)
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#24856 - 08/08/07 10:56 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
burgermeister Offline
Lunker

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 4025
Loc: Houston, Tx.
94 grams of oxygen added /hr Or 94 million milligrams

should read 94 thousand milligrams
milli is 1/1000
micro is 1/1000,000
_________________________

Top
#24857 - 08/08/07 11:30 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Bill Cody Online   content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12109
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
I'm glad we have some good math guys around to help us bio guys. Okay then, now lets refigure this. Diffuser is producing 94,000 milligrams of oxygen per hour into 3,870,000 liters (1 million gal). This results in 0.024 mg/L (ppm) of oxygen added to the entire pond per hour. If our low DO pond only had 250,000 gallons of water, DO production would still only be 0.096 mg/L/hr(ppm). As Ted says above, it is not very much above zero. Now we see why Donnie fish were dying. We can also now see when I say "oxygen dissolves slowly or poorly into water", it is true. All that bubbling doesn't do much in itself to add oxygen to the water.

Note the strong water movements of the diffuser are causing the oxygenated water to disperse widely and relatively fast throughout the pond. This is actually counter productive during a fish kill because it causes the oxygenated water to quickly be diluted into water with low DO rather than allow the reoxygenated water to stay in one smallish area to act as a DO refuge to fish.
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#24858 - 08/09/07 08:55 AM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Ryan Freeze Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
BC, are you saying that it would be a good idea to turn off the bottom diffusers and just use the horizonal aeration then?
_________________________


"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking

Top
#24859 - 08/09/07 09:27 AM Re: Pond full of dead fish
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19072
Loc: Miss.
Move the diffuser shallow to add movement but not mix deep water. At least that way you get some benefit. Emergency aeration is usually by paddlewheel aerator or circulator or other surface disturbing method.

Cody Comment.
I agree with Ewest. When your pond is going through a DO shortage it is best to move the bottom diffuser shallow to minimize the distribution of DO deep which even dilutes the DO more. Your goal during a DO crash is to get as much oxygen dissolved into water as possible and keep it in a relatively small area so fish at least have one area or section where DO is high enough for survival until things stabilize in the pond.
_________________________















Top
#24860 - 08/09/07 10:29 AM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Ryan Freeze Offline
Lunker

Registered: 10/31/05
Posts: 1285
Loc: Southwest Ohio
The fish farm near my place uses these http://www.kascomarine.com/products_aerators.htm
Maybe one near you could rent you one until things are under controll
_________________________


"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." Stephen W. Hawking

Top
#24861 - 08/09/07 11:24 AM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Donnie Castle Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 61
Loc: London, Ky
I checked my visibility with a homemake seschi disk (pie pan and old broom handle), my banks are sloped so I had to insert it at an angle. The disk disappeared at a depth of 16", so I figured that if it was inserted straight down the visibility would have been even less maybe 12-15". The water is still dark green and there are no signs of life in the pond, with the exception of a few eyes and tails.

I have had the pump running since yesterday afternoon and don't know how long to run it. It is a lawn sprinkler pump so I assume that I can run it continuously at least for a few days. I hand checked the motor this morning and it is not running hot just warm.

I checked for a DO meter at Cabela's and they have one for 79.99, I know its not the same quality as the 800.00 ones, but I hate to spend that much. Information on it is,
All the information you need to judge the fishing quality of a section of water and locate feeding fish is instantly displayed on this easy-to-use meter. The PCP 100 Probe measures light intensity to 50 ft. and computes temperature (30-90F) with a one-second response time. It's so fast, it can even identify thermoclines. Plus, it displays water clarity from zero to 6 ft., percent of visibility, dissolved oxygen content and even recommends lure colors and type from the all-time 12 top producers. Includes probe, 50 ft. cable, storage spool and attachment, battery and comprehensive guidebook. One-year manufacturer's warranty.
If anyone knows if this is a ok personal meter, or information on other one please let me know.

Top
#24862 - 08/09/07 01:07 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
BrianH Offline
Lunker

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 417
Loc: Hico, TX
I've had situations similar to your's. My pond had so many water weeds and duckweed or algae was thick enough to block out the light so every time I had several cloudy days in a row my fish would stop eating and would be gasping air in the morning.
I would set up a pump and it always made a huge difference. My pond is smaller than yours but the pump put a stream of water a foot into the air out of a 1 1/4" pipe and the next day they weren't at the top and two days later they would come to eat. I always ran mine till the sun came out.
I've since cleaned out the pond and thanks to Pond Boss I know what to watch for and I manage the weeds better. My diffuser quit last fall and I've gone without this whole year but I have electricity there for emergency.
Good luck

Top
#24863 - 08/09/07 08:28 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Donnie Castle Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 61
Loc: London, Ky
My pump has been running now for about 24hrs. I have walked the banks and saw no sign of living fish. My son came over this afternoon and said he saw fry in the pond. Just for the heck of it, I walked the banks again and then tossed in some feed, closed to the stream of water coming from the pump. Guess what I saw? TILAPIA! So if they survived, then maybe others survived also. I stood there and watched for other species to surface but I only saw the tilapia and small maybe 1" fry poking at the pellets. Wish I could have gotten the pump in sooner, but to see live fish in the pond was worth the 316.00 for the pump and pipe. This is great news for me, and hopefully I will see more fish as the pond condition improves.

Top
#24864 - 08/09/07 09:17 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
ewest Offline
Moderator
Hall of Fame 2014

Lunker

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 19072
Loc: Miss.
Donnie I would not spend my money on that meter. It does not really measure DO but only is a very rough guess based on light penetration and temp of what O2 'normal" water would hold.

Glad some fish survived. \:\)

Cody adds to Ewests post:
Donnie, I second Ewests opinion of this meter. I bought one of those a long time ago. It calcuates what the DO SHOULD be based on temperature. It does not really measure dissolved oxygen similar to the way more expensive meters do by sensing DO passage through a membrane.
_________________________















Top
#24865 - 08/09/07 10:08 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Bill Cody Online   content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12109
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Donnie - Presence of numerous small fish is evidence that the kill was due to a DO shortage. Big fish almost always require more DO than the smallest fish, thus when an oxygen crash occures bigger fish die and many smaller fish survive. A severe DO crash for a long period will cause all fish to die.
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#24866 - 08/09/07 11:15 PM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Donnie Castle Offline
Lunker

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 61
Loc: London, Ky
Thanks for the information on the meter, I will pass this up and continue to look for a better one. If any one knows of a decent meter for a reasonable price please let me know.

Top
#24867 - 08/10/07 12:30 AM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Bruce Condello Offline
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 08/01/04
Posts: 8854
Loc: United States
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bill Cody:
...Presence of numerous small fish is evidence that the kill was due to a DO shortage. Big fish almost always require more DO than the smallest fish, thus when an oxygen crash occures bigger fish die and many smaller fish survive.
This is true in every sense, but there is one "exception", and that is if you are running a surface agitator, such as that mentioned by Ryan Freeze, that you may possibly lose all of the small fish first, because they will not come to the higher oxygen area near the agitator. The smaller fish will languish around the dead and dying peripheral vegetation and perish. I've seen this twice, and once very recently in a post that I will soon be presenting.
_________________________
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.

Top
#24868 - 08/10/07 10:10 AM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Bill Cody Online   content
Moderator
Ambassador
Field Correspondent

Lunker

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 12109
Loc: Northwest Ohio - Malinta OH
Bruce, as always there are usually exceptions and it depends. Another exception is with different species of fish some are more tolerant of low DO than others.
_________________________
Keep This Forum Viable, Read Pond Boss Magazine -
America's Journal of Pond Management

Top
#24869 - 08/10/07 10:38 AM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Cary Martin Offline
Ambassador <br /> Field Correspondent
Lunker

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 551
Loc: Mooresville, NC
Okay...for the transfer of o2 from the bubbles of a submersed aeration system...as Sue mentioned, the bubble column created is a cheap inexpensive way to lift water from the bottom to the surface and allow that water to off-gas the hydrogen sulfide and carbon dioxide gases.

Bottom aeration in my opinion has always been the wrong description other than it moves the higher oxygen water from the surface and "CIRCULATES" it back to the bottom. Bottom Circulators should be a better term.

The transfer of oxygen into the water from a bottom aeration system is less than 5%. The numbers Sue gave were from the diffuser manufacturer who tested the diffuser in "Clean Water with ALL oxygen removed from the water". Therefore the water had a desire or an attratction to absorb oxygen. That is why the numbers are so high.

Place those same diffusers in a pond that contains other concentrations in the water column and the oxygen transfer is greatly reduced. Add to that just as mentioned above that it is so difficult to get oxygen into the water when other compounds are present and the transfer is greatly reduced.

For emergency aeration, floating ciruclator of some sort or I have even had our customers back their boat into the water, leave it hooked to the trailer and start the motor and splash the water, are better choices.

For long term circulation and evening out the oxygen curves, a bottom aeration (circulator) is a better choice.

In your case Donnie, I think the system was undersized for the potential nutrient shock load that happened. This one would have even caught us too. Ted said you had a turnover of 4X per day and I personally would have thought that to be enough. Those cows must be eating some rich stuff!

We will have to re-think the potential shock load when dealing with live stock watershed.

I'm sure this entire post has helped novices but it has helped us pros too. Thank you.
_________________________
Cary Martin
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4/martincv123/fishfight.gif[/IMG]

Top
#24870 - 08/10/07 10:54 AM Re: Pond full of dead fish
Shawn Banks Offline
Lunker

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 288
Loc: Northwest MO
Very interesting thread! Donnie, thank you for sharing your story. Your situation has definitely educated me. I'm guilty for using aeration as a safety-net while spraying weeds (killing more than probably should be). I have yet to encounter a problem, but.........

Donnie's situation was tough. A small pond, lots of fish, and effluent from a cattle pasture. At any given moment, every pond has a threshold for disaster.

My clients that have heavy feeding regimes & dense fish populations all get Vertex aeration with a Kasco surface agitator. I know that we are able to get away with more than not having any form of aeration; however, there is no 100% bullet-proof solution for every possible situation. If you go long enough without encontering problems, you can easily feel bullet-proof, over-confident, and more apt to push the envelope. Thanks again for your story, Donnie. You have jerked my leash and tightened my choke chain.
_________________________

-----------------
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" Albert Einstein

Top
Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Recent Posts
Snappers Under the Ice
by snrub
47 minutes 23 seconds ago
66 acre pond - structure plan & stocking question
by Daniel Powell
Today at 09:27 AM
Hey...it's not supposed to do this in Texas!
by highflyer
Today at 09:15 AM
Toxicity of Yellow perch eggs.
by snrub
Today at 07:27 AM
Wanting to add Yellow Perch to my pond.
by teehjaeh57
Today at 01:55 AM
Muddy Water
by Fordtran12
Yesterday at 05:14 PM
Geese at a sanitary treatment plant
by Bill D.
Yesterday at 05:10 PM
Facebook Live Wednesday evening
by LeighAnn
Yesterday at 02:53 PM
YP management in SMB pond
by RAH
Yesterday at 01:41 PM
2018 Pond Boss Family Fishing Photos
by canyoncreek
Yesterday at 01:38 PM
Newly Uploaded Images
Blowing Silt
Feeder
Can anyone detect an image here?
Deer1
Clearing pics
My Lake - Kansas

2014 POND BOSS INC. all rights reserved USA and Worldwide