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Hello everyone, I've been lurking here for a while but this is my first post. Great site, I've read a lot of interesting things here! In January I moved into a rental house that has a decent sized pond on the property. It is a flood control dam that was built in the 50's to protect a few towns downstream from flooding. There is no steady source of water flowing into it, only runoff, so water levels fluctuate. Below are pics of the lake almost dry, full, and close to where it is now. According to the property owner, the lake has only gone dry two times although it isn't unusual for it to get low in late summer/fall and hold their until spring. The first time I saw the lake was November and it's held at the same level over the last few months, about where the current picture is. Just a guestimate on my part, but from what he said the lake has a max depth of 12', so I'm guessing that it's at about 6' or so right now, and when full I was told it covers 7 acres. As you can see from the pics the water is pretty clear, he says it's pretty much always like that and if it rains enough to muddy it up it's clear again in a few days. I haven't fished this yet so I have no idea what's in there, if anything. The owner says that it has had bass, bluegill, perch, crappie, and channel catfish stocked in it as well as some suckers from a local river. However, that was before it went dry and he said he thinks the only thing left are bass, although I'm not sure why that's his opinion. Based on the picture of the lake when dry, I'd be surprised if there is anything left in there as it hasn't been stocked since then. The lake has produced at least two decent sized bass in the 5 lb class that I've seen pictures and one of which was mounted in the house I'm in before I moved in but I'm not 100% sure when they were caught, I think the mounted one had a date of some time in the early 90's but that may be inaccurate. I'd like to help improve any fish populations that exist now and/or establish new ones. With a lake that can fluctuate like this one, with the potential to dry up, is there a point in trying to establish a permanent fish population or would it be better to establish a stocking dependant fishery such as catfish for the summer and trout for the winter? With a self sustaining population the first problem I can think of would be lack of cover for prey species. As you can see from the dry picture, there's not really anything in the way of cover other than a some random rocks which I can't see being a big help. There is a pretty good layer of rock covering the base of the dam but I don't think it'd be beneficial to anything but fry. I think that this problem could lead to a large population of stunted bass and not much else and may be why there are only bass in there now, if that is truly the case. My personal preference would be to add some heavy cover into the shallow end and maybe the far corner of the dam, opposite of the slide but I'm not sure if the property owner would go for that or if he'd prefer to keep the lake clean, I'm thinking the latter is probably more likely to be the case. Also, I'm not sure what the forage base for the prey fish would be. Other than some algae there is pretty much no plant life so I'm not sure if there is much in the way of bugs and what not for bluegill or whatever to eat. If going the stocking route this could be a problem as well and may lead to having to have a feed based population. One idea that has crossed my mind is trying to develop the fishery into one based on large bluegill or another sunfish with a very small number of bass, maybe 10-15 total. If this is the route taken, my plan would be to introduce adult bluegill this spring followed by small bass in the late summer/early fall. I would think that this would only be viable if there are no bass currently in the lake though. Would channel catfish be a viable alternative to bass? If the stocking to sustain option is taken, what kind of numbers would be needed to have an enjoyable fishery? The main people fishing would be me, my 6 year old daughter, and maybe a couple of relatives so there probably wouldn't be much pressure. Would maybe 250 channel catfish either every year or every other year and roughly the same number of trout every fall be sufficient? The state fisheries department suggests stocking 100 trout/acre but I don't really have a need to harvest that many trout so would I realy need to stock that many to have decent fishing? Any opinions or thoughts would be appreciated, sorry if this was long winded, I didn't think it'd end up that way when I started smile

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Definitely a challenging dilemma... A BOW that goes from 7 acres to a puddle.

Not sure there is a solution to it though as you are working with a lot of limitations. You can certainly stock the pond, but in doing so realize what ever money you put into it could dry up. What seems to trigger the pond drying up so badly?

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I believe it's just related to a lack of rain. I knew a few years back that we had a series of summers with little to no rain so I looked up what the drought status was for that time in 2009 and found this:

http://www.deq.state.va.us/export/sites/default/waterresources/pdf/DMTF_Report_3-15-2009.pdf

Apparently a lot of the rivers and streams around the state were quite low around the time this pic of the lake was taken. There is a picture dated April 2009 where the lake has significantly more water in it, not to half full but getting there.

The fluctuation is one reason I was thinking of a fishery sustained by a stocking program. I would be a lot more frustrated with a dry spell hitting and destroying a fishery that'd been growing for two or three years as opposed to one with, say, channel catfish that were going to be fished out eventually anyway. I don't think losing water over winter would be an issue so if there was water in late October or November then I could put some trout in, if it'd been a dry year they'd be skipped or added when the level came up some. They wouldn't make it past June anyway so if the lake dried up late summer they'd already be gone. Has anyone ever done a bullhead based fishery? They could just burrow into the mud until the lake filled back up smile

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A stocking regime based sole on put and take is IMO the most realistic. Consider stocking the largest CC you can obtain. Generally you can find 12" fish rather easily and not that expensive. You could stock a hundred or so every spring or when most readily available. In the fall, probably early to mid Oct, you can stock trout. If you feed you can expect good growth rates on your CC. Fishing for the trout should be good through the winter. If the pond dries up and causes fish kill, you haven't lost a long term fishery as mentioned. I would say HSB could be an excellent option as well however they are illegal to stock in VA.

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Almost all of our water holes are filled by runoff and lack of rain is our biggest concern. Is this drying up a one time thing or a periodic event?


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

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Hybrid striped bass had crossed my mind as an option because of the open water nature of the lake, but I was unaware that they were illegal in VA. Would golden shiners be a better option as a forage fish in a lake lacking structure than bluegill? I'm pretty sure that they'd be easier for trout to eat, I've never heard of trout eating bluegill although I'm sure it happens to some extent.

According to the owner it has dried up two times, I think he's owned it for 20-30 years. I've read about RAS's on here and that's something I'd really like to try to grow out a few larger specimens. I suppose I could use it to hold some young of the year fish if the lake looked like it was going to dry out, but I'm not sure if I'd have the capacity to hold enough to make a difference or not.

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If I was in your shoes, I'd stock HBG and CC and pellet feed them. If you think you are able to catch a few local bass from an area pond that aren't diseased and you are certain you can ID the sex, toss in a dozen male bass as well. Catching male bass is easy during the spawn if you can sight fish for them. Even just one bass of either sex would be fine. Better to only have one bass than make a mistake and mix sexes and then your pond's dynamics would change greatly...

This combination is high turn over. So losing the fishery isn't going to set you back much. It'll produce many 1/2 to 1 pound sunfish which the kids will enjoy catching. The small number of bass and your stocked CC will limit or completely control successful reproduction of the HBG which is wanted. The CC will be an added bonus of the occasional larger fish up to 10+ pounds but most will be in the 1-3 pound range. The few LMB in the pond will not be a focus of fishing but rather simply to help the CC control any HBG reproduction.

Annual stocking of 300-400 HBG and 100 CC will not be overly expensive but will produce a quality fish if pellet feeding is done. If the pond does go dry, you're not going to be set back 5 or 10 years in your fishery. At most you'll be set back a couple years or so and you won't have lost much. Most HBG live about 3 or 4 years tops and CC will mostly be caught and put in hot oil in that same time period.

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Read this on pg 15-16 about stocking and put and take fisheries.

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p1428.pdf
















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Thank y'all for the replies. I hadn't thought about hbg before due mostly to reading a lot about them producing inferior offspring. Do you think they'd be superior to regular bg in this situation due to the fact they don't produce nearly as many offspring? I was thinking that the fact that there is pretty much no structure in this pond that there would be little to no chance for stunting to occur and that basically the bluegill reproduction would be a way to feed any catfish or bass in the lake. Do you think the risk of having a boom of small sunfish is too high to go this route?

As far as adding bass, I've read that smallmouth aren't as good at keeping sunfish populations in check as largemouth but also that they don't reproduce as well without the proper habitat. Would they be an option here or is that not a good idea?

As far as additional forage, would it be worth my money to add golden shiners or fathead minnows? The going rate seems to be about $10/pound. If I stock 100 channel catfish in the 10 inch range in the next month or so and say 250 trout in the 12 inch range in the fall, how many minnows would I have to add? With feed going for $20 for a 50 pound bag of catfish feed that would be more economical going pound vs pound. I'll have to do some more research on feeding as I'm not going to want to get into that if it's going to cost me in the 100s of dollars a month.

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Also, this may be a stupid question, but from what I read you're supposed to feed your fish at the same spot each time. Does this mean all the fish I have are just going to end up congregated at one spot on the pond all of the time?

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Stick with LMB, they are not in the pond for angling but as a control measure for any HBG reproduction that occurs to assist the CC in controlling it.

HBG are fast growers early on. Pure BG will outgrow them in the long run, but with the pond conditions you have, the long run may never occur. The idea is, HBG reach max size in 2 or 3 years, as opposed to BG which take several. With regular BG, you will need a reproducing population of bass and then all you have is a typical LMB/BG pond. You can do this, but again if the pond goes down you're starting all over again... Plus, this pond seems to fluctuate widely in size and hence biomass carrying capacity. This is easy to handle with a put and take fishery such as HBG/CC, not so easy to manage with a typical LMB/BG fishery.

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Ok, that makes sense. I will go ahead and start working on finding a source for the fish you suggested to be stocked at the suggested rate. The only "close" warm water hatcheries I've found are Zetts and Perry's Minnow Farm. Zetts' online cataloge is a few years old and Perrys doesn't have much info, neither seem to carry hbg from what I've seen on their websites. I have seen ads in the paper for a truck that comes to the Tractor Supply and one that also comes to the local Farm Bureau, I'm not sure how that works though or what size fish they carry. Carolina Fish Hatchery has hybrids and channel catfish, I sent them an email about their truck route and what size they carry with them. On their website they have HBG listed at $.80 for 4-6" and $1.50 for 6+ and 8-10" CC for $.90, that's the largest size they have listed. Do you have any recommendations as far as who to get the fish from?

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Any will work, just make sure you don't accidentally have bullheads mixed in with your CC or another unwanted species... So you may have to hand sort your fish as you place them in the pond.

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Well it's warmed up considerably here the past few days so I decided to take a walk around the pond to see if there were perhaps any fish in the shallows, not expecting to see much because it's also pretty windy. Walked one shoreline and didn't see any so I went out on the spillway and saw three sunfish dart away when they saw me. They weren't huge, probably about as long as a soda can but they looked pretty chunky so I walked back up to my house to get a rod and see if I could catch one. The only thing I had that I thought might work were some trout magnets (little jigs) so I grabbed those. Made a few casts to the area where I'd seen them but didn't have any luck so I tossed in right next to the spillway and got a hit. Turned out to be a 7-8 inch bass that I lost next to the shore while trying to get my phone to take a pic. Wasn't real fat but didn't look really skinny, either. Another cast to the same spot led to another hit and I landed this guy:



A few more casts didn't land anything so I switched over to a small Panther Martin and moved down the shore a little and missed a hit then hooked another bass which threw the hook by the shore. A couple more casts and I landed this one which was about the same size as the second one I lost, maybe a little bigger:



All of these fish came out of the deepest part of the pond which also has the only major structure in the lake, I'm assuming that's where they've been over the winter. I would say the first (and smallest) one I hooked was proportionately the fattest of the four, the two I landed look to be on the skinny side to me, which I think would be normal for them in late winter. So I guess for now this puts a hold at least on adding the hybrid bluegill until the ponds fish population can be better assessed. I think I'll buy some worms and try again tomorrow to see if I can't land a couple of the sunfish. Any thoughts on the bass from these pics or is a larger sample needed?

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Sounds like you have an established population that at least partly survived the extreme low water drought conditions of your pond. Sounds like you're going to be having a classic LMB/BG fishery unless you poison the fish.

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No point in poisoning them and starting over in my opinion, I'll just have to do some more fishing (oh the horor!) and get a feel for the numbers and sizes in there. I'm thinking that with the small amount of water in March 2009 which wouldve been coming out of winter that maybe only some of the smallest fish from the previous years spawn may have survived, which would make these fish almost 3 years old. Does that seem right based on their size? Also, is it it still ok to proceed with stocking trout?

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Remember that trout are fusiform and don't have spiny fins-- very easy for LMB to eat. If you stock trout, you're going to want to not stock any small ones. LMB can eat surprisingly large trout relative to their body size. I'd say keep it 11" and above, you probably have at least some bass around 15-16". No sense stocking expensive fish food.


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Well, I had planned on stocking about 50 each between 8-9 inches and 9-10 inches and 100 that are over 10 inches. The plan will be to catch them out by mid-May anyway so if the bass end up eating some of the small ones I'm ok with that. At 1.00 apiece for the 8-9 inch size I think they're more cost effective than fathead minnows would be at $10/pound, which seems to be the going rate plusI'd have to drive further for them or pay to have them shipped. Also, only the larger bass would be fattening up on them. In fact now I'm thinking I should get some smaller ones at 40-50 cents each just for the bass to eat once it warms up a little...hmmmm...:)

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Good point, if you can get them at $1 apiece, that's actually not bad even if the LMB eat some. About $4/pound. Not really competitive with Aquamax, but well below the prices of FHM or GSH.

Come to think of it, stocking two very different size groups could give you a good idea of how much of an issue LMB predation will be. If you stock say 100 at 8" and 100 at 12", but 80% of the RBT you catch are 12", you know that it's an issue.

If I was trying to grow trophy LMB, I'd think about stocking 5-6" RBT about a month before temperatures got too high in the pond for them. Could probably get them for a song.

Last edited by txelen; 02/19/11 04:41 PM.

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When considering the trout as a potential fish food 8"-14" Trout will be a better forage large fish, yet FH or GSH will be better forage for more, smaller predators AND reproduce considerably more pounds than stocked. (even in a mature pond)



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Those are both good points. I was planning on keeping track of the length of fish to see what kind of growth I get over 2-3 months. I know since I'm stocking various sizes it'll be inexact but if I end up with more fish in one size class than what was stocked, I'll know they're growing some. Also, I had considered that the trout couldn't be compared directly to fhm because they won't reproduce but I wouldn't think fhm being introduced to a pond with adult fish would have a large chance of getting established anyway so at least the big fish will be getting fed. Why are 8-14" fish better as forage? Just because of body mass? I can't imagine there being a bass in the lake big enough to eat a 14" trout but I suppose it is possible.

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Shiners being overstocked would have a good chance of survival and establishment IF there is good sized (10-20% of surface acres)vegetation cover in some shallow (<2' deep) areas. Fatheads will reproduce heavily, but with small bass, they will be wiped out after a year or two even if stocked heavily...larger fish won't target them as much if there is other, larger forage available. (Too much energy expended for the calories gained)

A 20" bass would swallow a 14" trout...or anyhting it can get all the way into it's mouth...trout are fairly small in diameter and have no spiny bones as mentioned earlier (fusiform).



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I think you guys are right about LMB being able to eat larger trout than we think. I stocked 100 RBT, that were right around 1# each. I only harvested 55, and saw 6 floaters when the water got too warm. No mink or otters, and I didn't see an osprey around the pond. I don't think I had anybody fishing the pond without me knowing about it either, although it could have happened.

I think I have LMB in the pond that are larger than 20".


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It is pretty amazing that a bass could swallow a trout that is over half the length of the bass. Does anyone know how long it would take a bass to digest a 10" trout? Just curious as to how many large bass you'd need to make a big dent in a population of trout.

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I've seen LMB swimming around with a fish in their stomach, and the tail sticking out of their mouth. I think digestion rate depends on water temp.


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Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why that surprised me. I feed the catfish in my aquarium shrimp pellets but some of the smaller fish that can't eat them whole pick them up and carry them around in their mouths and eat them as they soften up and can swallow a little bit at a time, despite there being smaller foods they could eat without a problem. I've seen them work on one pellet for half an hour before. I guess it makes sense that one large bite for the same energy as 10 small ones works out better for them. It also reminds me of a time I was fishing a small coastal creek when I lived near Virginia Beach. I was fishing from a bridge and saw what looked to be a headless catfish swimming backwards, coming closer to the surface. Turns out that it was a snake of some sort trying to eat a catfish that was about 3 times bigger around than the snake head first. Not a huge snake fan, and it kind of creeped me out.

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Well I stocked the trout today, seem to be doing ok. Went down this evening and caught another small bass, probably about 8 inches, and found a dead sunfish near the shore. The sunfish was probably about 2 inches long, it looked like a blue gill but it looked like it'd been dead a while and I couldn't really identify it. So there are at least two size classes of bass and whatever sunfish are in the pond and at least the sunfish are spawning.

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Cool! Did you take any pictures of the trout as they went in?


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No, I really would've liked to but it was rainy out when the truck arrived so I left the camera at the house. Have to work this weekend but I'm going to try to catch some dinner Monday, I'll try to get some pics then.

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Well after stocking in the rain Thursday and working through sunny 60 degree days all weekend, I finally was able to get back down to the pond today. Woke up this morning and went to get some food for the fishes, came back and took a little pail down to the lake. I threw a couple handfuls in, which wasn't easy with the wind blowing nonstop at 20-30 mph and I could see some of the golden rainbows swimming around below where I was standing on the spillway but they didn't seem to notice the food. The wind was blowing it back towards the shore pretty quickly and with the surface being so choppy I figured they either weren't catching the scent or couldnt see it that well so I threw in a large quantity at once and a few rainbows shot up a few seconds later and started eating the pellets. As I kept adding more more kept coming up to eat but a lot of the pellets got missed and ended up washing up on the shore. Hopefully I'll get better results when it's not so windy. Then I started to fish some which was also a chore with the wind blowing like it was but I caught two more bass and one rainbow. As I was bringing the rainbow in it started raining so that was the end of my fishing. I was planning on releasing but it really hammered the Kastmaster I was using and got a hook in the gills, so I ate it for lunch. I got a few pics but as the weather was iffy I left the camera at the house again, tomorrow it's supposed to be nicer so I'll try to get some better ones then. Here are the pics:






I've caught 5 bass total from the lake, one that was probably about 8 inches and the 4 posted in this thread. They look a little on the thin side to me, what's y'all's opinion on them? I have yet to catch any sunfish although I've seen 3 decent sized ones and one small dead one that washed up on the bank. I haven't really fished for them yet though, still need to get some worms and do that. Based on the size of the bass and the lack of cover in the lake, I'm guessing there are very few sunfish and the ones that are in the lake are probably big enough to avoid being eaten. There is a pretty good quantity of branches down around the property due to the snow we had earlier in the year and the high winds of late. I'm going to talk to the landowner and see if he would be opposed to me putting a few piles in some of the shallower parts of the lake to provide more cover for young sunfish. Also, I'm hoping that as it warms up the sunfish that are present will start taking the pellets as well.

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The bass do look on the thin side. It is the end of winter, bass are at their lowest weight for the year now though. Buy a scale and start measuring and weighing each bass and keep records. Then this time next year you can compare the relative weights and see if your management work is making a difference. In all likelihood, you have a classic situation of a pond that has little to no management for many years. Many small stunted bass with not many sunfish which are bigger in size.

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I will definitely start keeping track of the sizes of what I catch. As of right now, I'm thinking I'd still like to develop the pond to produce bigger sunfish. True trophy size isn't required, but I don't want a bunch of stunted ones, either. The main reason for this is so my 6 year old daughter and any of her friends that are over can have a good time of catching fish out of the pond. As the current bass population is unknown, would stocking regular bluegill now be a better option than hybrids? If the bass I have caught so far are what to expect in the pond, would 5"+ bluegill be sufficient to avoid being eaten by them? I'm hoping to get the sunfish in the pond to start taking the pellets I'm feeding the trout when it warms up a little and will continue feeding them after the trout are gone if they do. As far as the bass population, there is probably no way for me to control reproduction with them now, if going for large sunfish would it be best to leave them as is or to start taking any over a certain size out so predation is limited to small bluegill? I am not sure what kind of bass reproduction is going on as all of the ones I've caught have been close to the same size.

Also, in walking around the pond since it's warmed up some, there seems to be a pretty good amount of what I believe is muckgrass in the shallow end, extending about halfway out into the length of the pond. There seems to be divided opinions on this algae, as it apparently is good for aquatic insects and fish fry but it makes fishing a pain in the rear. Due to overall lack of structure/cover in the lake, I don't think trying to remove it would be a good idea but I was thinking of maybe raking areas of it out to allow for easier fishing and to develop lanes to funnel fish through it. Anyone ever tried this? Also, due to the fact I don't know how far out it's going to extend overall, I'm not sure if stocking catfish is a good idea or not as it seems like it'd make bottom fishing nearly impossible, although I would like to have some channel cats to fish for. Thoughts?

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See if you can catch a few, say a dozen or so sunfish. Photograph each one and then post them on here. We'll get an idea of what species you have. You may not need to stock any new sunfish, but rather just manage the ones that are already in the pond. I doubt any RES are present, so the addition of them would be a good thing. 5"+ RES would work. If you end up catch some of the sunfish and many of them are GSF, then the addition of BG would be prudent.

Can you get a photograph of this muckgrass? Determining exactly what it is really helps in determining how to manage it and if it is of value or detriment.

I think you can still stock CC, if you really want some catfish I see no problem in stocking some. With the bass population you have, I would recommend you find larger, say 10-12" CC to stock. If you feed the sunfish and trout, the CC will jump in as well and will definitely grow much better.

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Ok, I'll get some pics of the sunfish if I can catch any. Supposed to be a nice day tomorrow, I suppose I can force myself down to the pond smile I actually meant to post that it's muskgrass, not muckgrass. At least that's what I think it is. I'll get some pics of it too though, it's easy to catch!

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If the muskgrass is what I think it is, it's called Chara. I think it's a PITA, but it does serve a purpose.


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Yes, I think that that is what it is, it was identified as chara on some of the sites I saw it at as well. Here's a picture of some I hooked and pulled out as well as one of a small clump along the dam:




Here are a couple of sunfish I managed to catch today, in the second picture you can see more of whatever the above plant is:




The first one looks like a bluegill to me, not 100% sure though and not sure at all about the second. Finally, a couple more trout that I caught for the grill this evening. Released three more that were lip hooked and had a few other long releases. When I am thinking I will be releasing fish, I remove one of the points from a treble hook and bend down the barbs on the other two. It seems to provide more holding ability than a single point hook but is a lot less likely to create a bad hookup than trebles can.




Tried feeding again this morning with no results. I've been feeding from the spillway which is over the deepest water where most of the trout seem to be holding. I'm not sure if they're getting spooked by me being up there throwing the feed or what but I didn't see any take it this morning other than one that came up like it was going to then shot back down. I guess I've put in maybe a pound, pound and a half of food in the past two days but only saw a few pellets taken. I don't want to keep throwing in food that's going to mess up the water. The trout seemed to be pretty agressive in going after the lures I was fishing with. Any ideas?

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The sunfish both look like Bluegills to me. The weeds look like Chara, but to be sure, can you take a single strand that's about 10" long or so, put it on a white paper plate or white background and take a close-up picture of it? Does it smell musky if crushed in your hands?

The trout might be fattening up on natural forage. In my pond it took them a few days to get used to the food being tossed out. Same place, same time will speed things up. I'd toss out a handful or 2 each time. Cut back if the food isn't gone in 15 minutes.


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Yes I should be able to get a pic of a single strand on a better background. I didn't think to smell it although I'd read it smells garlicy. Does it make a good garnish? laugh

I checked the stomach contents of the three trout I've kept so far, there were some tiny oval shaped blobs in there, like the size of a pencil head, but it didn't look like enough to fill them up. I assumed that it was something near the end of digestion but I'm anything but an expert on that. The trout seem to all be in the deepest 1/4 of the pond. I just can't get them to come up and feed. I'll try again today with a smaller amount, I think I've been putting way too much in, especially since they aren't eating it. I was hoping some that got in towards the shore would get eaten by the sunfish, they seemed to ignore it as well. I'm going to get some worms and take my daughter down to the pond this evening, hopefully I'll be able to get a larger sample of sunfish. I'm pretty sure those two I posted are on the thin side?

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The water is probably still too cold to get your BG interested in pellets.
Try feeding a small amount of pellets in the morning and afternoon for awhile and see what happens, like I mentioned before if there's plenty of natural forage trout will happily go after that.

Are you planning on putting in a feeder eventually?

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No plans to put in a feeder right now, although maybe in the future. The only place to put it where it could be used at the various levels of the pond being full are on the spillway and it has a diving board and slide on it so I don't think that'd be a good place for it. I think I'm going to rig up some sort of enlarged pouch on a sling shot to try to get the feed out further into the lake and see how that goes.

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Modified the slingshot with a small Tupperware cup and a piece of metal clothes hanger, it doubles or triples the distance I can get the feed out depending on how good of a shot I get. I tried feeding the trout in the morning and evening when it's calm and it's worked out much better, they seem to be able to find the food before it washes back into the shore. The water is still on the chilly side, I would definitely say it hasn't made it up to 50 degrees yet. I bought a cheap thermometer to check the temp with but keep forgetting it when I go down. Had a nice rain today so hopefully that'll add some more water into the pond. Here are a couple pics of the small stream that was running into the pond on Friday, this morning it was about twice this size at 11 o'clock and it's still raining smile Still haven't gotten a pic of the algae yet, I'll try to get it this week.




Here are a couple of videos of feeding time with my daughter, in the second the feed had worked its way back into the shore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3-UNIxgKdI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c01bXDQ_oxQ

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Received 2" of rain yesterday, pond is up about 4 or 5 inches. Fed this morning but didn't expect any takers as the water temp was only 42 degrees and murky from the rain so I only put in a couple handfuls and didn't observe any feeding.

Streamflow this morning:



Also, I guess there is a wet spring near the swimming area as there was water flowing although I couldn't find a specific spot where it was coming up.



Hopefully the stream will keep flowing like this for a week or two. It's calling for showers Wednesday and rain Thursday, so that is good. Unfortunately the long, shallow area will make the lake take longer to reach maximum depth as it will start filling out in length before depth.

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Are those golden rainbows you stocked?

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Yes, I stocked 50 golden and 150 regular rainbows. Here's another pic of some of each:



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I talked to Arkansas Pond Stockers and Fish Wagon today about their trips to VA to see what sizes of CC they offer. The largest they told me was 6-8" but I looked on the APS site and it says they can sometimes bring larger fish if offered. As recommended, I'd like to get the largest size possible but if 6-8" is the largest is there any point in stocking them in a pond with an established bass population? I'm not thinking about stocking a lot, maybe 100 or so, something to pull out and eat every now and then once they get big enough. I'd like to stock ones that are of a harvestable size since from what I read they may put on a pound or so over the summer, which would mean I couldn't really keep any until the fall.

Other question is what would the positives and negatives be of stocking HBG be right now? I haven't really gotten a good sample of the sunfish in there to judge sizes and types so I'm guessing I should probably hold off until that is done. The largest size they have available are 2 1/2-4", $68/100. The positives I can think of would be these may be more willing to initially take feed than the bg currently in there and would boost the sunfish population some without overpopulating. The negatives are that if I have pure bluegill only right now, they would cross and wipe that situation out if they weren't simply eaten by the bass right off the bat.

I checked about golden shiners but they both only offered fatheads, which I'm doubtful would become established. The only reason I think they would have any chance is that the inlet end of the pond has a very shallow slope so if they stayed there and utilized the chara (still need a pic of a strand) they may be able to establish themselves. Of course, they'd probably do the exact opposite and head to the other end of the pond where the trout and bass seem to be hanging out right now so I'm leaning away from the fhm as I think they'd probably just be a quick, expensive meal.

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Not sure how far away you are from these hatcheries, but they are all near VA and could provide you with fish you are looking for...

Zett's Tri-State
Mid-Atlantic Stocking
Delmarva Aquatics
Foster Lake & Pond Management
Southeast Pond Stocking

These all have the fish you are looking for and are within a reasonable drive to pick up your fish and you may even be able to get them to deliver for you...

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Two negatives on stocking HBG in your pond.

They don't provide much of any kind of forage base.

If you already have bass, none would survive over a week.


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CJBS - Thanks for the links! I am going to take a close look at the SPS one you sent, they seem to be a smaller operation that some of the larger haulers but still have a truck route and will be nearby in a couple of weeks. From their website it looks like their trips only last a day as opposed to several days or weeks. I live about 10 minutes from Staunton, I think most of the places are too far to drive and pick fish up and I don't think it'll be worth paying the delivery fee for the number of catfish I'm looking for. Zetts would probably be the only other viable one from the list and I'm guessing it's probably a little over two hours away, but they do look like some nice sources for fish!

Dave - That's kind of what I was figuring with HBG that small. I was hoping they may work so I could get some to a decent size in a short period of time so the daughter would have something fun and easy to catch. I have seen what looked like a few decent sunfish in the pond but I'm not really sure what the overall population is. As it's been cloudy/rainy and the pond has been hovering around 45 degrees recently it hasn't been the best to get out and try to get a bigger sample. I think a couple of sunny days in the 60s may do the trick though, that's what it took to catch the two above.

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The trick is to provide a sustainable forage base and the BG you show are big enough to spawn. I think I would try to find a source for 6 inch BG and forget the cats until I could walk on forage without getting my feet wet. Anything else you add only increases your out of balance condition.


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I didn't think the channel catfish would put a big dent in the forage base as far as the bluegill are concerned but you're probably right about it being better to wait. I caught four more sunfish today, all about the same size. One smaller one that looked like these but I didn't take a pic of but here's what I caught, I think they're all bluegill:





Does anyone have any tips on how to keep the fish from swallowing the bait? I was using a size 10 hook and fishing with a bobber and three of the four swallowed the hook. Obviously a bigger hook would keep them from swallowing it but I think they may just pick the bait off of it. These aren't really big enough to eat so I put them back, just hate killing something and it not going to good use. Hopefully they got picked off by some bass.

I also found out there's a second pond on the landlord's property. I'd seen it before but just assumed that by the way the fenceline ran that it was on someone else's property. I am going to ask him some more about it tonight. I am not good at judging size of lakes but guess it's maybe 1/4 acre? Here are a couple of pics I took of it from the road:





The first time I saw this was in the fall when we first looked at the place. The lake was about halfway empty but this pond was at almost the same level it is now. I guess there's a spring not too far above it because there was a little stream running into it then, too. He said that they transfered some carp from the lake to this pond when the lake was almost dry, didn't mention if there was anything else in there. I'm not sure how deep it is but it may be deep for it's size with the steep banks around it. That, with the stream, and the trees around it may keep it cool enough in the summer for trout but I'm not counting on it. If I'm lucky and it is, I'll probably use it to put maybe 15-20 in to grow out and put in the lake this fall. If not, I'm thinking of hybrid sunfish and a few channel cats in it for the daughter to fish for so I could focus on developing bass in the lake. Any other ideas?

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Yep, those are BG. I'd use the smallest bobber you can get, make it small enough so that it just barely floats with the bait on it. If you can't find a tiny one, get the smallest you can find and pinch some split shot right under the bobber, adjusting the weight so it barely floats. It will be a lot easier to notice when they bite then.

I'll either use one of the Thill brand bobbers, or a bobber that is used for ice fishing.

Long shank hooks make getting the hooks out easier, and if you don't have a pair, get yourself a pair of hemostats that have a gentle curve to the jaws. A pair that is about 6" long is just about right. That makes getting the hook out easy (for me).


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Thanks for the tip, I'll try a smaller bobber next time. Hopefully it'll get warm enough soon to catch them on jigs, that'll help some, too. I guess I'll need some more practice with the hemostat. I'm used to takikng hooks out of the corner of a trouts mouth and they didn't seem to help much with the bluegill. Long shank hooks would've probably made it easier though.

I think you asked on another thread about the taste of the goldens I got and I never got back to you. I had a couple last weekend and they did seem to have a different taste than the rainbows I have eaten, a little sweeter in flavor. The texture was about the same, maybe a little less firm but that couldn've been a difference in how I cooked them.

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That's about the same difference in flavor and texture that I had as well. Interesting!


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It is surprising, I've never really noticed a difference in how any hatchery trout taste but I guess there probably is some.

I also meant to mention before that when walking around the pond the other day I saw some salamanders in the shallows that were either trying to drown each other or mate. Also, there seem to be a lot of frogs around the lake. When you walk around the edges at dusk you can see them moving from the edge to deeper water and you can hear them at night. I've always heard them called peepers, not sure if that's the actual name or not. So those are two additional forage items available to the fish in the lake. Since minnows have pretty much been ruled out due to adult fish populations already present, I was thinking maybe crayfish could be added? The entire length of the dam minus the swimming area has rock from the waterline down until the slope lessens. This continues around the northwest side of the lake. There is some rock present on the opposite shore and across the shallow end of the lake, but not as much. These are some pics I've posted before that give an idea of what's present:






The water level is currently up to about a foot below the bottom of the walkway in the first pic and after the rain we're getting tonight should be going out the spillway, which is visible directly under the platform in the second. The second shows the rocks along the dam and northwest shore and the south east shore. The picture of the trout was taken on the dam and the fourth picture shows the northwest shore and kind of what's along the bottom of the southeast shore and shallows. Would crayfish be able to establish themselves and thrive in this kind of habitat? Obviously the lake isn't full all year but at least along the dam there is rocky cover available as long as the lake has water in it. Are they a viable option or a waste of time?

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It doesn't seem like there are a bunch of crevasses and cracks among the rocks for the crayfish to hide in. I'm sure some might avoid predation, but I don't think that there are enough hiding spaces for them to thrive.


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Well, this has been a typical Virginia spring. We had a few days of nice weather that was starting to get the water warm enough for the bass and bluegill to start moving around some then it's dropped back down into the 30s and 40s and has everything back to about where it was in the beginning of March. When things were warming up I started seeing some small fish in the shallows. Some appeared to be minnow shaped so I bought a cheap minnow trap and set it out this morning. No minnows in it but I did pull up these four guys this evening when I went down to feed the trout:





They were between 1 and 1 1/2 inches. From what I've read, year old bluegill average somewhere between 3-8 inches so are these probably from a late spawn last year? After it had warmed up I saw three or four of this size floating along the shore the first couple of days it cooled down again. I also caught 10 7-10 inch bass in about an hour one day when it was still fairly nice out and missed or lost that many more. It'll be nice to be able to get a good sample of the bass and bluegill once the weather warms up again to see what I have to work with.

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They could easily be from last year.


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I agree, last year BG YOY.


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Thanks guys, I was pretty sure there hadn't been a spawn this year as I was pretty sure didn't warm up long enough for that. I caught 3 more this size in the trap yesterday and have it out again today, still nothing else caught in it yet. Did some fishing this morning since the wind wasn't as bad as it has been and caught 4 trout and saw a bird catch a fish and proceed to fly over me with it in it's talons. We saw a bald eagle about 1/2 a mile up the road from the house the other day so I initially thought that's what it was before it flew over but this bird had white feathers on it's underside so I don't think it was. I looked up some different large birds online and it looked a lot like the pictures I found of ospreys but I've never heard of them being around here. There are a lot of hawks but this would've easily been the biggest one I've ever seen, and I'm not sure if they will go into the water after fish or not.

I also finally got a few pictures of a single strand of the weed I inquired about a while back that I thought was chara:




Here's the catch from this morning/dinner this evening. The bottom rainbow had really been gorging itself on the Game Fish Chow I've been feeding them, the top one had been feeding on it as well but not to the same extent, and the middle two didn't have anything in them:


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It looks like some kind of stemmed plant with filamentous algae on it.


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The plant looks like chara. The 3"-8" size in yearling BG is more typical for pellet fed BG in uncrowded conditions. Particularly the 8" size. A 2" BG is rather normal at 1 year of age in more normal conditions here in VA.

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Thanks for the replies. The 3-8" in a year seemed like it would be a best case scenario. I could count the number of bg over 8" I've caught and have fingers left over. They just don't seem to get that big around here, at least where I've fished. It got up into the upper 60's here yesterday and I was feeding the trout near dark and saw some bg cruising the shallows. I tossed a few pellets in and they came up to check them out but only one took one. Hopefully they'll start taking them when the water warms up some more, which it should if the forecast goes as planned the next week. I also did some bass fishing yesterday evening and caught 8 fish in an hour and a half span. Broken down into size class, there were two at 8" inches, four at 10", one each at 11" and 13". One of the smaller ones looked skinny but the rest weren't really fat but didn't look like they were missing a lot of meals, either.

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A bass needs forage that is 1/4 to 1/3 it's body size. It's a matter of energy expended vs calories obtained.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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So can the size of forage available limit bass growth? The biggest bg I've seen and caught have been 4-5" and the lmb I've caught have maxed out at about 13-14", so it seems that the biggest known lmb to bg ratio is about equal to the bass to forage size ratio. By the 1/4-1/3 ratio a 4" bg should be a good size for a 12-16" bass, so I'm assuming that if bg above 4" aren't available the bass growth rate will drop off sharply or become non-existant once it reaches 16"?

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Yep. And remember that your BG have to live long enough to spawn and keep spawning.

A 14 inch bass can stay alive chasing minnows but won't thrive. The bass needs 10 pounds of forage to gain one pound. I've never figured out what a maintenance diet is. I expect it varies with the water temps and metabolism.

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I had the minnow trap out for 3 days (checked it every 12 hours or so) and only thing I got in it were the small bg like pictured and a salamander so I may have been mistaken on the minnows. So as of right now I know there are two size classes of bg, 1-1 1/2" and 4-5", and all of the lmb I've caught have been in the 7" or 10-13" range. My theory is that when the pond almost dried up over the 2008-2009 winter, only the spawn of that year surivived, whether due to low oxygen or the larger ones being fished out. That could mean last year would've been the first year they were large enough to spawn, so there are two classes of fish in the pond, the three year old fish and the fish that were spawned last year. Does this seem feasible based on the sizes of the fish caught so far and if so, is it best just to let them be for now to see what happens?

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I think it is very feasible. Eliminate the small bass anytime you can. Try to give the BG some opportunity to reestablish themselves or go buy a bunch of 6 inch bluegills if you can find them.


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Dave, is your recommendation to remove the small lmb based on giving the freshly spawned bg a chance to live longer? It has been up in the 70s the past couple days and when I went to the pond this evening there were bg in the shallows along most of the shore I walked. I had been seeing 2 or 3 here or there while it's been cool, this was the first time I'd seen vast numbers of them. I had hydrated some Game Fish Chow to see if they'd take it better if it was sinking. I walked along the bank for about 1/2 of the pond and pretty much every time I threw a piece in a group of 5-6 would come up to check it out, sometimes more. Some of it still floated and only a couple of those were taken but pretty much every piece that sank got eaten, which was encouraging. They were also feeding on bugs around the shore as there were ripples from them coming up the whole time I was down there. Unfortunately it's supposed to drop back into the 50s the next few days so that may shut them off again but next week it'll be back up into the 60s and 70s.

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Keep doing that and the BG will be feed trained to floating feed quickly.
















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Yes, that is what I mean. I rarely see a pond with too many small, stunted bluegills. I often see ponds with too many stunted bass with nothing to eat.


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Ewest - Hopefully they'll catch on quickly. The pellets got pretty messy when hydrated, may not have done it completely right.

Dave - That's what I was thinking, but as of right now it seems that the size of the bg is more of a limiting factor than quantity. I don't think the bg or lmb are currently stunted, just haven't encountered any large specimens yet. Removing bass may be a good idea anyway though as it will probably help the ones left grow faster? It's definitely something I'll consider.

I fished a while this morning and caught the smallest lmb I've caught out yet while fishing for trout and also the first sunfish other than a bg, I am pretty sure it's it's a hybrid.




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That isn't a hybrid sunfish. It is a redbreast sunfish(RBS)... Neat you have some in the pond. They are a nice addition to ponds in my opinion. They will never get nearly as abundant as BG, but should stick around in small numbers. Not a bad sized RBS either....

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Good catch on the redbreast sunfish, hadn't even thought of them because I've never caught one out of a pond. I was going on the larger mouth and greenish blue on head, didn't pay attention to the flap behind the gills. I know the owner has done some bucket stocking in the past from a local stream on his family's property that flows about 1/4 mile from the pond. I'm guessing that's where this fish came from. The ones I've caught from streams have had a darker coloration on top and a much more orangish/red belly. There are some streams nearby that have good populations of nice sized RBS so if I catch some more from the pond I may look into transfering some more over. I've looked back at some posts on RBS and while it seems that they a aren't usually successful in ponds, it is possible. I haven't caught any RES from this pond yet but have caught some from the smaller pond on the property so I will begin moving some of them over soon as well as any 5"+ BG I catch. It's supposed to be warmer Monday and Tuesday so I'm going to try to do it then before the fish take to spawning beds. I caught a BG yesterday morning that was really fat, I'm guessing it was carrying eggs. The RBS was only slightly longer than the BG I've caught but was close to twice as thick. It seems that a lot of fish that are native to streams grow much larger in lakes or ponds, so I'm guessing RBS could as well if they adjust to pond life. I would like to add to existing BG to expand the forage base, and have RES and RBS (if they'll work) to enhance angling diversity and increase the chance of catching larger sunfish as they seem to get bigger than BG naturally in most bodies of water. I'll also continue to work on getting the BG to take pellets. Does the mix of the three sunfish seem possible or are there issues that could arise from it?

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I don't see any issues with those 3 species combined together. I wouldn't say RBS get bigger than BG. I have never seen a pond or lake where BG didn't out grow RBS, but anything is possible.

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I was just going by my experience, the RBS caught out of a few local rivers average bigger size than bluegills I've caught out of ponds/lakes around here. I'm sure you're right about BG being able to outgrow them in ponds though if the conditions are right. I caught about 15 bluegill out of the small .2 acre pond here today and transfered them over to the larger pond. They were between 4-6" with most on the smaller side. The smaller ones were skinny looking but the larger ones were pretty thick, in my opinion. I know that's not a very big number of fish but I think that any additional spawning will help in the larger lake and I'm going to try to get as many as possible out of the smaller pond before they spawn there. I'm going to pick up some worms and try again tomorrow, I should have better luck with them than the artificials I was using today. I also caught a 5" crappie out of the small pond. I think it was a white crappie but am not 100% and couldn't get a picture of it. No RES caught there today.

I also think I'm going to go ahead with Dave's recommendation of removing some LMB from the bigger pond. While I don't think there are any stunting issues with them right now, I don't think taking some out will hurt as they seem fairly easy to catch right now. I'm thinking of initially removing 50 in the 7-11" range and seeing what kind of effect that has on fishing before committing to removing more. I'm not sure what to do with them though, I could eat some of them but after I'll probably end up with a good number of trout in the freezer after I fish them out. I think I may add 10 or so to the smaller pond to knock down the panfish numbers as I have yet to see or catch a bass over 6-7" out of there and there seem to be a lot of smallish, thin BG. Hopefully they'll also eat any LMB spawn and keep them from stunting as well.

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There's an old pond recipe that says, after the 2nd year of stocking, remove every bass shorter than 14 inches. You can't catch them all and it's hard to catch enough to help. However, it does need to be done. Yesterday, I tossed two 4 inch bass and three 7 to 12 inch ones up on the bank.

And, I released one that would go about 3 pounds. I released it by tying a lousy knot and only getting it to the bank. DAMN!!! However, it would have gone back in anyway.


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What effect could the pond's size fluctuation have on the practice of removing all that are less than 14"? Right now, I'm looking out at a 7 acre pond. By September, I wouldn't be surprised if it's 2 acres, maybe less. If it stayed the same size all of the time, I think it would be a lot easier to deal with knowing what I had to work with. Is there a point I could reach where I should stop removing smaller fish? I was thinking of catching them, cleaning and selling at the farmers market or to a local ethnic grocery store but from reading the state's fishing regulations I'm sure either of those would be illegal. Would stocking them into another pond be a bad idea if I could find someone nearby who may want or need them?

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I plan for the minimum pond size in regards to fish population. That way I don't have an overpopulation when the water level drops.


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The best idea is to think you have a 2 acre pond that sometimes swells up to 7 acres. Manage for 2 acres or face a potential die off.


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That makes sense, it would've been nice to be able to sample the pond better when it wasn't full to know what I was working with but I'll just have to make do with what's there now. Right now I'm going to continue adding adult sunfish. Should I add as many as possible and assume that if I put in too many that the bass will just have a feast when the pond goes down again, or is there a number I should shoot for? Once I decide what to do with bass that are taken out I'll begin removing them. I don't really want to just toss them but if that's what needs to be done I guess there will be some happy raccoons and possums around.

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The answer to your question is... Who knows! Without a serious fish survey, it is all conjecture.

This June, purchase a 50'x4'-6' seine and run it in a suitable area of your pond. See what comes up... That will tell you a lot about where your pond is fish community wise. An electroshock survey would also be invaluable.

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How about one of those cast nets, I've never used one, are they hard to master?



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They aren't easy, but they aren't impossible... Hard to find one with mesh small enough to capture the smaller size fish.

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I can't seem to get the hang of using one, but I'm bringing it along to the Conference to get someone to show me how. Someone there has gotta know how to use one!

I agree, the seine or e-shock is the only way to get a good sample.


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I used to be able to throw one but I'm not that great anymore. When trying a 6 ft radius one, I can throw an almost perfect upside down taco shell every time. I recently bought a small 4 ft one and can, for awhile, do OK with it. However, as it gets wet and algae and mud get on it, that sucker keeps getting heavier and I can't toss it as far. Yeah, I know I'm old and out of shape.

Scott, I can show you how to do it and the technique but that's about all. It's all about how you roll your right hand.


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Come on, I know there has to be at least one pond psychic in the crowd! I would love to be able to do an electroshock survey but that's not really in the budget right now and I'm pretty sure the owner doesn't have enough interest to pay for it. I will try to give the seine idea a shot once it gets warmer out, sounds like something my daughter might enjoy helping with as well. I did walk around the pond this morning after feeding the trout and saw 3 schools of what had to be 50+ 1" BG in the shallows.

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google calusa cast nets. They have a video on how to throw a cast net, and it works for me. Lots of different weights/ sq ft and mesh sizes. I have a 10 footer I can throw pretty decent. One good throw loads up the livewell with bait. (In the salt, illegal in the fresh) If you really want to man up buy a 12 footer mullet net ( heaviest wt/sq foot) It is all about technique, practice, and using a quality net.


Thats 10 foot radius
I hear Sunil can Bench press it and then throw it 300 yds in a perfect circle


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10 ft was a long time ago for me.

But, I agree about technique. It also helps to keep in practice.


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I'll look into a cast net as well. How well do they do in the wind? It's almost always windy here. I've walked around the pond a couple times each of the past few days and the shore seems to be loaded with 1/2-1 1/2" sunfish. I put out the minnow trap today and caught a dozen in it after it sitting about 6 hours. All were BG except this one, can anyone ID it?



Also found 3 BG floating around the edges of the pond that were around 4" and one around 1". It was in the mid 80s and they were all in the shallows Monday then it got down into the 30s the last two nights which I'm guessing wasn't easy on them. I don't think it's a water quality issue as the trout seem to be fine.

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It would seem you RBS are reproducing as that is an RBS... Congrats!

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Memphis Net and Twine is an option, Bass Pro and Cabela's usually carry them in the 50'x4' size as well.

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Good to hear it's a RBS, I think I may have some more of these. The small wet weather stream that feeds the pond has a bridge crossing and I've spotted some sunfish about the same size as this one under it the past couple days. I've never heard of BG looking for moving water so I'm guessing these could be RBS as well, I may move the minnow trap up there once the rain disappears this weekend and see if I can't catch a few of them.

This stream also has me wondering about another possibility for additional forage fish. Pretty much any stream around here contain creek chubs. I've looked back through the posts on here for info on them and the main reason they don't work in ponds is lack of flowing water. This stream has been running since the first heavy rain back in March and is probably deep enough for chubs to go into it. Or, if gravel was added at the mouth to the lake, could it possibly work as a spawning ground for chubs? It seems that they'll hit just about any bait you throw in the water once June rolls around so I would bet that they would learn to take feed easily. Worth considering or bad idea?

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Stocking creek chubs won't hurt, but I doubt they would last long under predation from LMB. Unless they take refuge in the creek itself. They are just so fusiform, even a 12" creek chub could be eaten by a 14" LMB...

In VA, good species to consider are bluntnose minnows, spotfin shiners and banded killifish. If the stream can be ascended by fish, other species may be usable if they can reproduce in that stream. Most stream dwelling species are not good forage option as they don't survive predation well which is why they inhabit small streams that lack larger predators.

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Well, if a 14 inch bass could take a 12 in chub I agree that there probably isn't much point in adding them. They probably could take refuge in the stream in the spring but it wouldn't offer them year round protection. I may stock some anyway just to see what happens, if they get eaten they get eaten. Would 100 or so be a decent amount to try or should I try more?

What I had considered doing was building a small weir across the mouth of the stream using railroad ties, then cutting a couple of wide notches halfway down into the top one to allow the water to flow straight into the lake with some current instead of having a waterfall effect. After this was done, I thought adding a pebble bed maybe a foot deep from the base of the weir maybe 20-30 feet out into the lake that could be used as a spawning bed as it would have water flowing over it. The water depth would be about 1-3' deep in this area. With RBS in the lake, I may still do this as I would think it may be beneficial to their spawn as they're primarily found in streams.

For the forage fish you listed, I'm guessing they'd all have to be collected in the wild? What advantages do bluntnose minnows and spotfin shiners offer over fathead minnows and silver shiners?

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Yes, both species have to be collected fro the wild.

Bluntnose minnows reach slightly larger sizes than FHM and are a bit more tolerant of predation. Spotfin shiners are even more predation tolerant, but unlike GSH, they only top out around 4" so they don't get to sizes too big for predators to eat. They also don't compete as much for food sources with sunfish as GSH do.

As far as your plans for the stream, it is an awful lot of work for little to no return IMO. If you got a burning desire to experiment, go for it but it's not needed. In all likelihood, your creek chubs will be eaten in short order no matter how many you stock. 20, 200 or 2000...

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Do you think the setup I mentioned would benefit the RBS at all, as far as creating a flowing water situation for them to spawn in? I think I have seen bluntnose minnows in a few streams around here based on the pictures I've found of them.

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I don't think the effort would be worth it to help your RBS. Bluntnose can be easily confused with a number of other species, but if you catch a few and post pics I can help you with ID.

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OK, if that won't help the RBS or help establish chubs then I won't waste my time with it. When the pond drops this summer I will talk to the landowner about adding some simple structure to the pond as pretty much all that's in there now is the spillway and some branches that have washed in during heavy rains. Maybe a couple of logs on cinderblocks and a few block or rock piles. The past few days have been a lot warmer and the LMB and BG have moved into the shallower water. Lots of BG can be seen around the edges of the pond and some are taking floating pellets. I fished for them the other day and was catching one every two or three casts in the 3-5 inch range. I caught one that was a little bigger than the average and also another RBS. For some reason the LMB are hanging out under the bridge at the mouth of the stream. It's probably 4 feet wide and maybe two feet deep there and the current isn't really strong but it's noticable. I've walked over the bridge a couple of times and had 15-20 LMB swim out from under it. I wouldn't be surprised at maybe 2 or 3 but I haven't found a reason that many would be stacked up in flowing water unless maybe they're preparing to spawn there? I always took LMB as a calm water fish though so I'm not sure.

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The water maybe warmer than the main pond which could be attracting them... Most likely though they are taking advantage of the current bringing them food. I've seen that in several ponds that have in flows like that. The LMB stack up there to feed on all the tasties that get washed down stream to them.

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