Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Advice needed Stunted fish offspring/ misc stuff about my pond

I've been lurking for a few months and have learned a lot or at least read a lot! Not sure how much I've absorbed? I am getting older....

By the way this site is top notch.. What a wonderful group of people.
I will definitely get me a subscription to the Magazine..


Hopefully somebody can advise me about my situation.

My farm is near Goodrich Texas in SE Texas..

I've got two exsisting ponds .85 acres and .75 acres.. Both 25+ years old...
Both stocked with BG, FLMB and NLMB.. CC as well but they were all caught out..

I've started working on the .85 acre pond this summer now that I'm back in Texas for good.... I will work on the other pond later and might expand it to an acre or more..

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I did a search but could not find the answer..

Question 1 --- Will the young offspring of stunted BG grow to normal size if the original gentics were very good and the over crowding was ended by what ever means! and feeding was started?

Question 2 --- If I feed a pond will that not only help grow fish faster but help with a future algae bloom as well?
Don't really want to fertilize the chara until some grass carp eat some of it...

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Let me tell you what I have planned and some history..
First the water test..
PH- 7.8- about the same as artesian well feeding it.. ( I also test the PH myself with a Digital Meter and it stays 7.4 to 8.2 depending on the time of day)
TAK- 100 ppm
TH- 120 ppm
nitrate 2 ppm
nitrite 0 ppm
Muck about 2-6 inches depending on the area.. maybe 3 inch average...
Calrity is 5 ft+..

My pond use to produce 3/4 to 1 lbs+ BG three years ago but had a job in another state and just got back and noticed very few big BG's (one caught in four weeks near 3/4 lbs) and tons of small ones... Chara also took over about 60 to 65% of the pond bottom and cattails cover 50% of the bank area..
A billion freshwater muscles by the way..

I use to draw it down every winter and rake it as well and fertilized three times a year.... Kept chara at 15-25% for years and somtimes less..


I caught several skinny LMB of different sizes .25lbs to 4.0lbs and saw some fingerlings as well..
Not a whole lot of bass caught in a 4 week period or even seen..

Since the water is pretty clear and I've been fishing it for four weeks, I can see the LMB numbers are not what they use to be and big BG are almost none exsistent...
Also the green color of the water is not what it once was either...It use to be 20 to 30 inches in summer and now it's 5 feet visibilty or more. Very pretty though..

I've heard my neighboors have taken more than their fair of LMB and big BG's since I've been gone..
Pond is .85 acres 5ft average depth, %15 is around 7ft deep and 15% is less than 2ft deep..

Water is pretty clear and no doubt needs some fertilizer at some point to help block the weeds and help the food chain...
It is fed by a (40 year old) artesian well at a rate of 3.5 gallons a minute (150,000 gallons a month) not a lot of runoff maybe 3 inch rain raises it 4 inches.... Pond stays full most of the time, even during drought, which is rare in SE Texas..

I'm now drawing down the water 1.5 to 2 feet feet to update the overflow drain (dual 4 inch with grass carp grate) and redo the spillway (with fish fence) which is almost never needed except for epic floods because we do get 15-30 inch rain storms every 5 years or so in these parts..
Also the draw down will give me better access to the cattails...

I will then refill it...

I plan on putting in 4 or 5 grass carp to attack the chara pretty soon and the draw down will also kill any chara in the area 1.5-2ft range. Will send for permit next week for the grass carp.. Plan on getting them form Overton's when I get and am hopefully excepted for the permit?..

I've started feeding the exsisting BG at a rate of what they eat in 15 minutes.. Lots of minnows and crawfish clean up anything they miss near the bank...
I will also redo the two brush piles that are now just about gone, at a later date though.. Maybe add some other structure as well after my current problem is headed in the right direction..

I'm clearing at least 60 to 70 % of the cattails right now..

I Think I need to stock 10 or so adult LMB to attack some of the stunted fish in the near future.??

I may leave the water a little low for a while because it's down a foot now and the few LMB I have seem to be eating there fair share because most of the cattails are no longer available for cover... The last one I caught looked fatter.?

Maybe a few RES in the future as well..

I plan on feeding from now on and introduce Grass Carp... or stop now depending on what the experts think..
I do not want to kill the pond... I don't like that Idea at all..

My goal is I want a pond with a few big LMB, many medium LMB and much bigger BG and maybe RES..

First of all I think too many LMB were removed, to many weeds and cattails grew to hide the baby BG and with the clear water the remaining bass became less successful hunters.. Also most of the big BG were caught out by over fishing.. I got hammered...

I will be able to control fishing pressure and everything else from now on..

I miss catching those huge BG and the occasional huge LMB bass..

Lake record is 7.5 lbs FLMB and 1.5 lbs BG.

I will post some pics next week of my progress..

Thanks in advance for any help and I hope I wasn't to long winded.. Just wanted to give enough info to get a good suggestion, advise or a carry on as planned..

The first question about the stunted BG offspring and their growth potential + feed is the big one...
I want to have it on the right track by next July 2008... So I'm not in a huge hurry... Or maybe I am..?

Hi Tecohorn, I think I know less than you do, but when you mentioned the RES it reminded me of an article I found recently. If I were you, RES would be high on my list.


Record Shellcracker

Tecohorn welcome to the PB forum. Start with your goals and work toward them. I assume from your post you want large BG and a few big LMB.

Either a classic LMB crowded pond or an all male BG pond with a few female LMB will do that.

But lets start with your first question. Over time (how long a time is a unanswered question) a stunted population of BG or LMB will select for that genetic trait. How many generations that takes is a very good question. There are a number of stunted BG threads here to read. It sounds like you have what I described to GW last week due to removal of your big BG. Here is the link/text.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=004456;p=2#000018

My thought is the way to fix this is while the water is down and the LMB are feeding help them out by seining or trapping out some small 3-5 in BG and add them to the other pond (if it could use them). Then add some new genes by adding about 50 adult CNBG from Todd when he brings the GC. The big CNBG will add genes plus suppress spawning by the small or stunted ones which should help their growth as well. A few adult RES would help also.

Feeding is a fertility add on as is fertilization. Each raises the productive capacity of the pond. Taking one away after using it for a while often results in to many hungry fish with not enough food. They can be mixed and matched and substituted to get what you want but it takes time and experience with your pond to get there.

If I read Tecohorn correctly, the pond has been unmanaged for 3-4 years. My guess is, that's not enough time for serious genetic selection of "small BG" genes to occur. But as ewest points out, if you can add some large adult CNBG they will help suppress maturation of existing small, juvenile BG. And adding some new BG genes to the mix can only help.

Thanks for your responce Ewest and others..


To start I will trap out some of the 3-5 in BG, that won't be hard because the feed like crazy.

What do you think about adding:

20 6+ inch CNBG
30 4-6 inch CNBG
10 4-6 inch RES
20 3-4 inch RES
10 8-10 inch Tiger Bass
4 Grass carp

Or should I just stick with 6+ CNBG and carp..??

And also continue feeding every afternoon and twice a day on weekends..
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We spent the morning counting bass and looking for large bluegill in the now crystal clear water and we saw:

LMB:
20+ - fingerlings
6- 6-8 inch
3- 10-12 inch
1- 14-16 inch bass
1- monster 24-28 inches that hides in an old hog feeder..
2- large BG and one of them was the one I caught and marked last week.. All other BG are fingerlings to 6 inches..

The pond has now been drawn down 2 feet.. The deepest spot is 6ft deep with 6 inches of muck.
Avg depth is now 3 ft deep and the exposed chara is dying fast in the sun..

Lot's of snails, millions of muscles, minnows and crawfish by the way..

Also the LMB do look fatter than they did 4 weeks ago... Must be munching out on the little BG like crazy..

When I feed the BG the LMB hang out a few feet away and make a strike into the BG ever so often... Fun to watch..

I forgot to mention in my post about the RES that the record fish was so big because it was in water that had a lot of mussels in it. It sounds like your pond would be an RES all-you-can-eat buffet.

GW I read that.... It got me excited about RES...

There will be RES in the pond in the near future... Maybe I can raise a trophy or two?

I see the Texas state record (private water) is 3.25lbs...

If you add CNGB, make them all bigger than the BG size you are removing. Why pull any new Coppernoses by mistake?

Did you mean why stock any new CNBG (4-6 inch) I will trap out the BG first starting monday..

I figured since I am feeding, they will grow bigger by summers end and will not stunt and also add to the gene pool in late summer and next year..

Also Overton's web site (1 hr 10 minutes away from my pond) say they just have 4-6 inch CNBG at the moment... I've called and left a message and I'm waiting on a responce.. I would like to get some CNBG in there pretty soon along with some RES and the GC...

There are other fish suppliers but none so close I would feel good about moving them in the Texas heat.

I agree with Theo. Go with the biggest CNBG and RES you can get. Tell Todd you are from PB and need help and why. Ask him to select out some large ones. It may cost a few extra $ but will be worth the effort. Todd has good CNBG as we have seen the results of his here.

Thanks, I will talk to Todd and see what he can offer me..

Here are some pic's of my pond at 2.5ft down today.. As low as I'm going to go.. It is summer.. It has rained 7 inches since I started my project a week ago..

You can see my underwater island and the old stumps of willow trees that once grew 15 years ago and the 2 inch siphon in the upper right corner..


You can see how crystal clear it is now the chara beds and the chara free areas.

Most of the Cattails will be gone next..

Extended and fixed the dual 4 inch old drain and just need to add the vertical pipe and fish guard on top..

The chara has dried up and died quickly above the two foot mark..


[IMG]http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x43/tecohorn/228743-R1-02-1A_003Medium.jpg[\IMG]

Sent my permit off for the grass carp but after talking to Todd it may take a month to get it approved and back.. He seems to think that might be too late and too dang hot to get the grass carp.. I will get them in the fall I guess..

After a lot of reading on this site and input from the new project supervisor (The Boss)..
I think I'm going to go for a fairly clear water pond that I can swim in sometimes but bass heavy and try to grow a few big to really big CNBG and RES...
I will feed instead of fertilize... Will also use aeration to keep the bottom microbes more active..

There are tons of snails on the chara..
I counted about 50 in one glob I raked out onto the shore..
Millions upon millions of small & medium mussels as well.. I think the RES will fall in love with the place..

I will try to control the Chara the old fashion way with winter draw downs a strategic raking a few times as the water warms.
I will see how it goes this summer and If I can't keep up, I will add carp as needed..
Also continual cattail control to keep the hiding spots for forage under controll and in balance as well..

I'm now raking passages thru the chara so the bass will have alley ways to attack the stunted BG... It's seems to be working great and a lot of fun to watch the bass use the newly raked alley to stalk BG near the shoreline..

When I refill the LMB will have a 10-15 ft wide bare alley all the way around the pond with chara about 15-20 ft wide with alley ways cut thru the chara.
If you look at the above pics, there is already a chara free zone in the center of the pond and around the submerged island.
I will connect the alleyways to that central clear area..

Since the draw down and other work the bass are cleaning up on the BG... All look much fatter now.. Just not a whole lot of them like the old days.

I'm going to try and balance cover with water clarity so the BG will still produce but give the bass many places to strike to keep the BG numbers in check and the big ones growing..
That might be tough to figure out because water clarity definitly helps the BG if you don't have the proper ambush areas.. That's what I've observed so far anyway..

I will also trap more BG before I add any other fish except for some adult LMB to keep hammering away at the small BG's.

I sure hope Todd can come thru with some large CNBG to keep the younger BG I have in line and out of the spawning areas when I get ready to stock..


I Also will add a small beach (sand gravel bottom)about 30 feet wide and 20 feet deep near the drain area...

I'm going to build a new pier now with lights and maybe a bug wacker as well.. Just trenched a 30 amp electricity line 300 feet to the pier along with a 3/4 fresh water line.. None of that was in the original plan and renting a trencher and buying 30 amp underground wire was not cheap..

My other pond will be a bare bottom with man made/placed cover for pure fishing..
I might just drain the whole pond and re-stock..
It sounds easier than her pond don't it!

In summary I've had my mind changed.. The Boss now want's one clear fishing, wading, swimming with a wildlife friendly area type pond with small bass and big BG/RES...


Any help, insight or suggestions would be nice...
Well if you can understand any of the newbie gibberish in the above post that is??

Thanks in advance..

Will be sending off for the magazine soon... and a few back issues..

Again great site..

You have a plan and are implementing it well. Never make the boss mad. Sounds like a good plan. The LMB will do fine in clear water as they are a visual predator and have the advantage (better sight) especially in low light conditions over BG.

Tecohorn,

Howdy Neighbor,

I owned property outside of Goodrich with a couple of ponds many years ago and your description is right on. I'm now a few miles north of Livingston. The reason I mention this is because I'm willing to offer you a few breeder CNBG if you want them....for free. The genetics are A1 top notch with a mix of fish from Tyler Fish Farms(arguably some of the top CNBG genetics anywhere) and Danbury Fish Farms....best CNBG to date about 13 inches. Check them out at:

http://www.meadowlarkponds.com/OFF.htm

My offer is for a small number of fish and all I ask/require in return is complete anonymity on where you got the fish.

Howdy back to you..

Wow! That would be wonderful and I'm overwhelmed by your generosity..

I've looked at your site many times and read many of your post in the last 6 months.
To say I was impressed with your CNBG would not do them or your hard work justice..
I would be in heaven to get a few of those fish and would do my best to give them a great home...

Just the genetic jump start my pond needs to get back on track to where it was before I left and the looting of my prized fish began..

Being so close is just a huge bonus.

Everyone I've talked to, and I've called a bunch of people, say I will have to wait until some might become available but most have said they don't sell any that size at all..

Anonymity will not be a problem..

I will be refilling my pond in about 10 days or so depending on the weather and other factors..
Then I guess I will let it settle for a few days then start stocking a few 1 lb LMB from Todd Overton and hopefully some of your prized CNBG..

This site has been an amazing experience already and I really appreciate everyones input....

What a great community of people..

Pond Boss rules..

Tecohorn,

These will probably be about 8 inch fish...smaller CNBG just don't last long in my ponds and I won't let go of larger ones. The smaller ones either get big fast or are eaten.

When you are ready for some, just PM me for directions. Bring some worms and whatever you wish to use to fish with or you would be welcome to use my stuff. Plan on late afternoon where we could catch the fish and still give you plenty of time to get them in your water before dark. Looking forward to meeting you.

p.s. warning, you may get the surprise of your life if you hook one of my "pet" Pacus.

Did you ever find what was left of that last fellow, ML?

That sounds wonderful...I will be in touch and I have plenty of fishing gear and supplies and I will bring some worms..

And again, thanks so much.. You made my day...

No, not a trace...but don't let that scare you. The Pacu aren't really piranas, even though they do look like them and do act like them and do have teeth like them and do seem to have a disposition like them...but I have noticed my black lab, who used to just love the water, now goes to the waters edge and barks. Whats up with that?

ML you sure no gator is around ? That is one thing our dogs (they love the water) will do and they won't go in.

No gator. I was just joshing Tecohorn since he is coming for a visit....or was coming for a visit before Theo's remarks.

ML have Tecohorn bring a deep sea rod and water skis. He can hook a pacu and let it pull him around. Problem is the LMB might think he was a top water bait.

After 15 inches of rain over the last 3 weeks I've been able to clear a spot for the beach.
I took the level down 32 inches and the water temps are slowly rising but still fine..

I've cleaned out some alley ways and tons of other chara for the bass to get at the BG and they have been hammering them for days now but just not enough bass because of over fishing while I was gone. 14 Bass counted but every size is well represented...
Also the drawn down has killed a band of chara 8-15 wide all the way around the pond and I've removed some cattails and much more of it is dying fast..

I've also learned that my pond has a billion snails that live in the chara beds and any RES is going to be very happy after the refill..

I've trapped out 500 3-5 inch BG and still have many left... The little BG are growing fast and catching up in size with the stunted BG in just 1.5 months of feeding..

Here a few pic's from today... Some bass, BG and some of the other work I've done...

ML, Ewest ect..

ML. I will be refilling soon and can't wait to see your setup... I spent some time looking more closely at your site and it looks like heaven..

I'm starting to see some FA and will be stocking Tipalia soon or first thing next spring..

Will be introducing some 1-2 lbs bass later this summer along with some RES and some adult CNBG...

ML...
My young BG do seem to be growing fast but still have no idea what the 3.5 year lay off from mangement has done to the genetic pool..
Hopefully with your great genteics and some other CNBG I hope to purchase I will be well on my way to a pond balanced the way I want it..

I've only seen 2 large BG and one is fin clipped and see him when I feed..

The birds have also found the pond a great place and are helping with the BG explosion that occured over the last 2-3 years..

Grass carp will go in this fall but I want to leave some of the Chara beds because they seem to hold thousands of crawfish, and billions of snails, Mussels and a few leeches.
RES Heaven..??? I hope so, they have never been in the pond and are needed badly..

I'll just have to figure out how many GC I need to get it where I want it.. Or remove them when it looks like they are getting it under control??? I have a friend who is an expert bow fisherman and might come in handy when ever that day comes..
I'm thingking maybe 25% chara and the rest bare bottom..

Any comments or advice would be appreciated.

A few more pics.. To bore you with..Mussels- Spawning beds- dying weeds and fish..






Future beach area

Tecohorn,

Looks like you've been a busy fellow and are doing some great work!

You will see the same kind of mussels around my ponds when you visit. I'll show you my own approach to weed control...which differs from the standard approach of bulk stocking 10 to 15 grass carp per acre. I like to stock grass carp at one to two per acre on a preventive basis...not to totally eliminate all weeds but to control them. Some weeds are good (much better than a pond devoid of any), but finding the right balance is an on-going effort for me. It is much easier to add GC and measure the results than put in the recommended 15 per acre at one shot and see your pond devoid of vegetation and full of GC looking for something to eat....that's my opinion.

Looking forward to meeting you, showing you my ponds, and providing you a few CNBG for your genetics...just send me an e-mail when you are ready.