Fabulous photo! This is kind of exciting. Pond Boss at it's best. The quality of the picture is so good, but I can't quite see the twelvth soft ray. Eleven are easy to see, but I think number twelve must be a little guy.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
I feel like the more I learn, the more there is to learn! Thanks for following up on this thread everyone. The pics are worth 1000 words, and the information provided by ewest is very helpful as well. Also thanks to George who provided me with some very nice specimens this year. I'm going to start counting soft rays on larger sunfish and I'll post interesting observations.
I'm still interested in identifying qualities of pure coppernose females.
Variation in phenotypic expression of bluegill is amazing. It's just the tip of the genetic iceberg that we can see, which leaves me in awe as I try to imagine the genetic pool under the surface.
Blue Gill have become such a major topic on this forum, and especially with the recent article in PB magazine, I have realized a new appreciation of BG.
I have taken them for granted previously, and considered them only as forage for predators, and still do, but now respect others view as an important sport and trophy fish.
Thanks to Bill Cody, early on for assistance in BG ID, and more recently involvement with Todd Overton’s approach to preserving “pure” CNBG genetics, a new appreciation has developed.
I confess I am guilty for taking them for granted since we routinely catch 8-10 inch CNBG. I have absolutely no interest n attempting to grow a “record” BG, but have the greatest respect for those that have that goal.
The most fun I have is teaching a youngster, (or older in some cases) to fly fish for BG. I make it easy – in front of the feeder with pellet flies…..
But in the final analysis, they remain the backbone forage fish for our ponds.
I agree with Todd – when you can grow BG this size and aggressive, why would HBG be an option?
We don't have that situation yet so we don't use them. While I often caution folks on the matter they can be the right tool in the proper circumstance. One thing every study and report on the matter I have seen states is that HBG are more aggressive than BG and some say more than either parental species. That IMO is the hybrid vigor part of HBG and the assertions of size/growth rate is much overstated.
I very rarely see a situation where I would recommend stocking HBGL. In one case recently I recommended some for a flyfishing enthusiast along with some HSBs as population control. He followed my advise, but later attended a pond management seminar hosted by an A&M extension fisheries specialist. There he learned NOT to stock HBGL because of their tendency to revert back to greens.
He paid me a visit and was somewhat uneasy and irritated that I recommended stocking HBGL. I think I eased his tension, but I'll avoid those bullets in the future by simply not offering HBGL.
The following is added to this thread for archive purposes.
Bill here is some info from observation from the aquarium I once kept (may do it again). I will keep an eye out for photo evidence and in time can produce a pic from my fish.
There seems to be 2 types/variations of CNBG. One One from its original range (Fla area) and one from Ark. where many hatcheries grow lots of CNBG. The Fla. type are more colorful (lighter with more white/light pencil fin and tail margins and some orange pic 1 below) and the Ark. type (darker, more orange ,less light fin edges and less color ranges pic 2 & 3 below). The Fla types I have watched (most but not all) in the aquarium from 2 in up have had white/light fin edges.
This is from Todd. While not as bright as many you can see the light edge on the tail.
Now here's a 2.5" coppernose with yellow color on tail and pectoral fins. Hope you can see it well. I never noticed those light fin and tail edges until just now. Bing...I see it.
Secondary evidence the following are written by fisheries scientists one Tex one Miss. and they note the traits ,then provide that the copper bar is only in adult males. I would assume based on their training if all the other traits mentioned were in adults only they would have so stated.
The Coppernose bluegill is known for its colorful markings. The fins of the coppernose have a reddish orange fringe outline with a pencil thin white border. The vertical bars on the sides are more distinct and broader especially in the young. The distinct copper band across the head which is brilliant on the male is the reason for the common name "coppernose".
THE COPPERNOSE BLUEGILL (CNBG) IS ALSO A FLORIDA STRAIN. IT IS EASILY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE NORTHERN BLUEGILL BY ITS COLORATION AND MARKINGS. THE FINS OF THE CNBG ARE REDDISH-ORANGE WITH A THIN WHITE MARGIN. THE TYPICAL VERTICAL BAR PATTERN OF THE BLUEGILL IS PRONOUNCED IN THE COPPERNOSE, AND VERY DISTINCTIVE. ADULT MALES HAVE A BROAD COPPER BAND ACROSS THE HEAD THAT IS THE TRADEMARK OF THE STRAIN.
Like Fla. LMB , CNBG being a Fla. BG sub-species, do not do well in cold climates. My guess is the farther you get north of about the Tenn/Ky state line extended the less likely CNBG will meet their genetic potential. To much north of there (like mid Ohio to mid Wisc.) they may not over-winter at all, as in die.
Can you be more specific why this fish looks like Arkansas genetics? I'm trying to learn a little here. I've only caught coppernose at Lusk's place, and if I saw this fish I would have just thought "Beautiful coppernose" and wouldn't have seen anything to require further analysis.
Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
Can you be more specific why this fish looks like Arkansas genetics? I'm trying to learn a little here. I've only caught coppernose at Lusk's place, and if I saw this fish I would have just thought "Beautiful coppernose" and wouldn't have seen anything to require further analysis.
Thanks for the compliments guys - hope Dr. Dave sees the post.
I thought more Arkansas because of darker color. I had a couple of "for certain" Florida trait CNBG and a couple of (?) Arkansas trait CNBG in darkened live well. The 2 Floridas remained light coloration, whereas the (?) Arkansas remained dark color. All were very agitated...
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)
George, Regarding the two fish in your July 4th 7:52pm post - Top or 1st one is a male CNBG. I find it interesting that on the male CNBG that the dark scale tipping extends down onto the gill cover. And 2nd one (7:52pm) appears to me to be a female regular? BG or female CNBG; if that is a male fish I am fooled. On the female note the lack of dark tipped nape scales, lack of a square opercle flap (unless the lower margin is folded), and a swollen belly probably full of eggs. The urogenital pore in the photo appears to me to be swollen or enlarged - also a feature of a female BG in spawning condition. Both are real dandy fish. The female BG is a close "mate" to the 3rd BG -a male faded "Todd" CNBG BG- in the July 4th 8:45pm post; note its wide squarish opercle flap. The dark tipped nape scales are present but not real pronounced. This male also does not have the pronounced regular dark male colors. When was he caught? Recent or previous? His colors are not a lot different than the big female in upper 7:52pm photo. Is the water a little murky (not clear) in the pond where they live? I think you may have some fish with "diluted" CNBG genetics.
You grow some mighty fine bluegills. It has to be great fun catching those on a fly rod.
aka Pond Doctor & Dr. Perca Read Pond Boss Magazine - America's Journal of Pond Management
I sure would like some of these in one of my ponds. I do not think many of them if any would survive but I may just take a chance this spring and put a few in say 25-50 just to see if they make it and reproduce.
You bet, George!! Nice cap. Oh, and dandy fish, too. Got to catch my first coppernose bluegills when I was fortunate enough to go to Richmond Mill with Bruce and Bob. My, what a treat. They are just gorgeous fish I may have to move south just for coppernose bluegills.
Interesting how the old threads can be just as much fun when we see them again!
You bet, George!! Nice cap. Oh, and dandy fish, too. Got to catch my first coppernose bluegills when I was fortunate enough to go to Richmond Mill with Bruce and Bob. My, what a treat. They are just gorgeous fish I may have to move south just for coppernose bluegills.
Interesting how the old threads can be just as much fun when we see them again!
Thanks Dr. Dave - I enjoy the old threads as well - a lot of water under the bridge and knowledge gained! Richland Mill has raised the bar pretty high for CNBG.
Yeah - nice cap - my favorite ....
N.E. Texas 2 acre and 1/4 acre ponds Original george #173 (22 June 2002)