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#24072 03/31/07 10:15 AM
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Thanks Bruce Condello and Theo Gallus for your replies on my New England Trout Pond msg last week.

As you suggested, my concerns of winter-kill were premature. Below shows the 17" trout I caught after work yesterday pm. Pretty healthy looking, although I still don't know why their feeding activity was/is essentially not observable.

One of the things I learned from Pond Boss was that with small ponds - as you see mine is - managing a self-sustaining warm water species population is tough. So I chose put-grow-take with trout. Last year's six-inchers are now 17 inches. Not too bad.

Good water clarity following ice-out as well.

Here's the pix. As said last week, pond is small (~1/4 acre) but well aerated.







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What a great looking pond! It is spot-on what our pond may end up being - 1/4 acre with lots of different size rocks and boulders from the site. Victoria needs some pictures to help visualize what we are trying to do. Do you mind sharing some more pics and details? How it was built, what type of machines, how long it took, how deep, etc? Great looking Trout, too, by the way.

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What a great looking fish! Small head, big body.


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From Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
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Dave, thanks.

Victor, thanks also for the kind words. I put in this pond last spring 2006, completed in early May. It is in a clay area that was originally wet/swampy - fed by groundwater & seasonal spring flow. I'm next to a river, so I have a pump in the river to add water to the pond during summer. I have a small backhoe, but it was insufficient to the original task. A large track hoe was the answer. There is a good sized berm, and protecting against wash-out was a significant design goal. The occasional massive downpour has to be considered. Nine to 10 feet deep, flat bottom with steep sides. Bought an aeration kit (pump, hoses, clamps, diffusers, timer, etc) from Ted Lea at Forevergreen. The aeration is key. Lined the sides to about 3' feet deep with weed barrier and field stones that I have in great abundance. Keeps muddiness and weed growth to a minimum. I've designated one part of one end for cattails.

In May put in 75 Rainbows, 25 Brook. They fed well but went dormant when bottom water temps got to 65 deg f. (I bought a temp gauge with a 50' thermocouple lead to measure temp at the bottom.) But in Sept when temps lowered the fish got active feeding again.

In Sept added 50 Browns, which are reputed to do best of all trout with higher summer water temps.

I've caught good Rainbow, but have not seen one brook or brown since I but them in. I'm waiting and hoping that they are just more fickle.

Here's some more pics of the pond from last fall, noting that the one near side of the pond is still being completed with a paver walkway and field stone edging.

Let me know what you and Victoria decide. There are not a lot of northern trout pond postings - so it is nice to connect with others.

I put in a nice paver and architectural stone patio & fire pit area, integrated with some of the larger field stones for seating. The below pic shows me working on that. Kinda fun. The other shows the pond relation to the house.




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Wow! What a great job. The pond just blends in and looks like it was put there by nature. I will bet that the patio is a real nice place to just chill out. Dittos on the northern pond owners. Eric has a 'smaller' pond in New York and was really helpful in bouncing some ideas off of, too. Thanks for posting the pics. They will help Victoria and I. Let us know when you land one of the browns!

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Nice Pond NEMason! And a nice healthy rainbow! Browns can be fickle for sure. When I think I have caught them all out there are still up to a dozen in the pond!

Here's what a rainbow looks like that has lived for 4 or 5 years. This Austrian gentlemen was happy to catch him out of my pond. Sorry tried to crop the pic but for some reason it isn't happening.




If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Beautiful place NE Mason. A piece of heaven.


Holding a redear sunfish is like running with scissors.
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 Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Condello:
Beautiful place NE Mason. A piece of heaven.
You got that right Bruce. Used to live 10 miles south of the New Hampshire line as a kid. Lots of trees, boulders, ponds, lakes, hills, mountains. NEMason you got it made!


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Bruce, Cecil - thanks. Reading yours and other's PB postings have been invaluable in getting this done.

Cool jumbo-sized rainbow, Cecil. I've seen a couple of other pics here that show truly impressive fish.

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Well done NE Mason!! Very nice place you've got and the pond certainly compliments the whole package.

On the subject of aeration, did you run your compressor 24/7 throughout the summer or only at night?

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Russ, thanks. Good question on aerating 24/7. I gave this a lot of thought, read PB forums, and asked questions to the hy-on-a-hill trout farm in Plainfield, NH from where I bought the trout.

I did not aerate 24/7 in the hottest part of summer - when bottom water temps got above 65 deg f. I had a timer that only aerated from 2 to 6 am. The thinking was that aerating (and the consequent circulation) during the hot days of summer actually increases water column temps, by preventing the natural effect of thermal layering. But that the nightly drop off in dissolved O2 is countered by the aeration during early morning hours. Starting to aerate at 2am gave time for surface temps to cool before mixing the water column.

It seemed to work... Although I've got 25 brookies that are definitely AWOL. The rainbows definitely did ok, but they were completely dormant(at least not observable activity) during hottest parts of summer.

During spring & fall I aerated pretty aggressively - but would time it to stop during hand-feeding so the pellets would not wash to the side of the pond. Aeration stopped before ice-in of December. Informed by PB, I chose to not aerate during winter. The only concern being that more than 24" of snow cover on ice may prevent light penetration and lead to critical drop in dissolved O2. But that did not happen here in NH.

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NE Mason,

Nice set-up!

According to Dr. Dave Willis, for every hour you spend fishing for a rainbow you might spend 20 times that amount of time catching a brown. I believe it; we stocked 240 browns (with 400 rainbows) in our trout pond a year ago and have not seen hide-nor-hair of them (browns) since! It concerns me in the future as we add more rainbows (5-7 inch), will we be feeding larger un-catchable browns.
So to answer your question………….I believe the browns are still there.

Good Luck.

Ed

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Ed, thanks. I actually appreciate the advice on the browns. How big is your pond/lake? I'm interested in fish density for Trout. How many of new fish planted in successive years end up getting et by the the older bigger holdovers?

Russ, seeing that you are member # 12, my overly detailed answer to your 24/7 aeration Q probably hit you around the ankles. I guess I am just happy to talk about pond stuff...

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Guys,

If you feed enough those big fish may not eat nearly as many of the smaller fish as you think. In fact they may not eat any of them.The main problem I have had with a disparity in size of trout is the smaller ones get crowded out at feeding time or get stressed. That in turn effects the growth rates of the smaller fish. I now will only plant trout of different species that are close to the same size. One way to circumvent this is to put the new stockers in a floating cage until they reach a larger size before releasing them into the pond with the larger fish. Trout actually do very well in cages if the water temps stay optimum.

Ed,

I would suspect you are going to have to match the hatch to catch those browns. (pellets like the pantyhose rig I showed you at the convention) Not only are browns a more wary species but they can get very selective. Last year out of the 50 plus 3 1/2 to 7 lb. 12 oz. browns in the pond I could only get a handful on artificials. But once I put on the pantyhose pellets, a small split shot to make it sink slowly, and an ice fishing float as a strike indictor all hell broke loose.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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NeMason,

You didn't ask me \:\( , but since I love this topic I'm going to tell you what guidelines I follow for density in a small pond. Then Ed can chime in and we can compare.

I go by the rule of about 12 lbs of trout per gpm of inflow of fully oxygen saturated water. Ponds are about 1/10 acre (90 by 45 feet). However, my flow is constant from April 1 to November 1 (on really cold days early on I may shut off the flow -- as in right now highs are in the low 30's and lows in the 20's with no need to run the well). I pump in about 41 gpms which comes out to close to 500 lbs. of trout upon harvest. I try not to go over 500 lbs. but have slighty with no problems. Keep in mind there is some nitrification going on in the bottom soil along with any plants you have. Of course if your flow is less constant, or temps are higher -- your carrying capacity may be lower.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Cecil, couple of things.

First, is there a link or reference to pellets-in-pantyhose presentation that the browns hit on? That sounds intriguing. I saw some good references elsewhere in PB to pellet flies, which I'm also going to try.

Next, with regard to carrying capacity. My pond is a bit bigger than those you referenced - 130 x 60 ft - and fed by underground springs and above ground seepage - plus a 1/2 hp submersible pump of river water (not O2-saturated). Plus the two diffusers - one on each end of pond. Do you think this setup somewhat matches carrying capacity of the O2-saturated 41 gpms? (I'll have to measure the flow of the pump, but I bet it matches or exceeds 41 gpms)

Last, wrt newly introduced trout I've read that trout will eat anything up to half their size... But properly fed I'm guessing I could put in some more 6-8 inchers in the next couple of weeks with little loss. Do you stock annually each pond, or do you grow out and clean out before stocking again?

Lastly last, from your earlier comments, I should guess that the slower-growing and more timid brookies I first put in are in high stress and likely just not doing well in the face of more aggressive rainbows, and even the browns introduced later. Do you ever mix trout species in a single pond? (I think brookies are gorgeous...)

Huge thanks for your comments. This stuff is excellent.

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 Quote:
Originally posted by NE Mason:
Cecil, couple of things.

First, is there a link or reference to pellets-in-pantyhose presentation that the browns hit on? That sounds intriguing. I saw some good references elsewhere in PB to pellet flies, which I'm also going to try.

Well here's what I do. (Sorry pic is not that clear for some reason). I stretch a piece of pantyhose over three pellets and tie that off with monofilament fishing line, then trim off the excess. I usually tie a bunch of these up ahead and store them in a plastic fishing tray container. I then put a very small split shot about 18 inches above that to make it sink (It will float if you want it to) and then a small icefishing float as a strike indicator. I prefer the pellet to sink slowly as it seems to take less effort for them to inhale it and for some reason they really go after a sinking pellet without abandon when they will sometimes inspect a floater.



If you need any of these floats I'd be glad to send you a couple as I don't know what's available in your area.

Next, with regard to carrying capacity. My pond is a bit bigger than those you referenced - 130 x 60 ft - and fed by underground springs and above ground seepage - plus a 1/2 hp submersible pump of river water (not O2-saturated). Plus the two diffusers - one on each end of pond. Do you think this setup somewhat matches carrying capacity of the O2-saturated 41 gpms? (I'll have to measure the flow of the pump, but I bet it matches or exceeds 41 gpms)

It's hard to say unless you measure your D.O. saturation with a D.O. meter. Most likely it will vary depending on time of year due to water temps. I wouldn't think the river water would be to far off of saturation though.

You should be able to get a chart from the manufactuer on your pump regarding gpms related to feet of head if it's difficult to measure it.

Last, wrt newly introduced trout I've read that trout will eat anything up to half their size... But properly fed I'm guessing I could put in some more 6-8 inchers in the next couple of weeks with little loss. Do you stock annually each pond, or do you grow out and clean out before stocking again?

I usually stock every two years and completely harvest as I sell my trout to other taxidermists. I drain the pond, let it dry, and refill.

Lastly last, from your earlier comments, I should guess that the slower-growing and more timid brookies I first put in are in high stress and likely just not doing well in the face of more aggressive rainbows, and even the browns introduced later. Do you ever mix trout species in a single pond? (I think brookies are gorgeous...)

Absolutely! I used to have brooks, browns, and bows in the smae pond, but anymore I am religious about them being close to the same size when I plant them. I do think feeding them regularly can help with the aggressiveness. I don't plant rainbows anymore because due to my limited capacity I prefer to specialize in harder to find species to sell to my customers. I do miss the rainbows though. I hope to produce some tigers in the future.

Huge thanks for your comments. This stuff is excellent.



If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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For some reason, the pic doesn't display. I've noticed when I'm on PB that my PC displays some pics - I assume JPEGs - and doesn't display others.

Not sure I need it. Your description of the three-pellet lure was good.

How successful are you at catching all the fish before you pump the water out of a pond? Have you considered seining?

I'll look for the DO meter on the net.

Thanks for all this great info. I'm just a year into this 'pond world' but am having a blast. And so what if my performance is slipping at work, savings account is drying up, personal life is, uhmmm, "in decline..." PB forum chat is much better than the therapy/counseling/medication recommended by my friends and relatives.

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NE Mason,

Sometimes you have to push the refresh button to get the picture to show. The next time you are on here it may show up also.

I can usually catch out all or close to all of the brookies. Same with rainbows. However with the browns I may have up to 8 left when I drain. Part of it is they are more wary than the other two but since I harvest in the fall, they are in a spawning phase which can cause them to go off feed and contract a case of lock jaw. I have been setting up a wooden barn ladder on the side of the pond when I see one floundering in what little water is left, and scooping the fish up with a dip net attached to a long pole. I will be getting seine in May to have on hand. Never owned one before.


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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NE Mason,

Don't tell anyone here but member #12 is a facade. It was assigned to me because it matches my IQ when it comes to fish knowledge. I glean much more than I give.

Your aeration response matches exactly what has been recommended here when it comes to trout ponds with limited cold water assistance. Glad to see it has been successful for you!

In reference to ......."savings account is drying up" .............. you'll find that when it comes to ponds and money, the only thing that drops quicker is a wedding gown on honeymoon night.

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Russ,

Well we are throwing money into an endless pit or hole in the ground aren't we? \:D


If pigs could fly bacon would be harder to come by and there would be a lot of damaged trees.






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Thanks, guys.

I'm now turning my attention to using a second pump (unused sitting in my shed) to move water from the bottom of my pond uphill 200 lateral feet to create a de facto bog filter. The area the water will filter through is the historic drainage, filled with ferns, swamp maple, yellow birch, berry bushes, etc. It is a wide, shallow drainage that may work perfect. The area kind of seeps/drains together as a little flow that I put a flat 12x5' stone 'bridge' over - you see it to the right in the pic below if you squint hard. (The pic shows the last of the ice coming off the pond a week ago.) Do you think this will help remove the dissolved solids and other crud? And maybe help me raise fish like Cecil does?

But the details will fill a separate post... I got the bog filter idea from the guys talking about raising trout indoors.

Later, and thanks for your assurance and welcome to PB forums.

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Mason,

Woops, I'm late again.

Good question about trout density in pond.
Nothing very scientific here for trout stocking rates. You will probably want to follow Cecils advice as he follows a better management plan than I do.

I guess I have always figured about 150 fish per surface acre in a low to medium managed pond. We do supplement our 3.2 acre trout pond with aquamax feed from one feeder. Yes, fish (rainbows) go crazy under the feeder. I am pretty sure very few if any browns visit the feeder and only a percentage of the rainbows.
I do watch WR ratios fairly closely and if fish performance drops off, we harvest a few more fish. Browns will definitely throw a wrinkle in this theory unless Cecil pays me a visit and shows me how to catch these phantom fish.

Cecil, will the panty hose pellets technique work on fish that have not seen or visited the pellet feeder?
I would like to catch many of the browns out if possible?

On a side note: We also stock significant numbers of FH minnows in this pond from our dedicated minnow pond. There seams to be large numbers of varying age class minnows in the shallows. I believe this also tells me that maybe our stock density is about right for the rainbows or maybe even a little low.
I would not recommend this procedure if you have to buy minnows.

Kind of like Cecil, I am “pushing” a few of the rainbows “hogs” very hard on feed! Everyone likes to see BIG fish…….right?

If our trout population, density, WR’s gets too “out of whac” it is easy to fix. Our trout do no spawn, and in the worse case scenario the pond has a drain plug.

Probably not much help from me.
Ed


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