Pond Boss Forums GENERAL QUESTIONS Pond Boss Fish Farm Internship Opportunities?

I was wondering if anyone knows of, or has any contacts at a quality aquaculture facility where the owner(s) may be interested in offering an internship opportunity...

I am an Animal Science senior at Cal Poly State University San Luis Obispo, and I have been having a rough time trying to find someone that is willing to let me shadow them and learn some technical skills as it pertains to husbandry / production of game fishes.

My career goal is to become an aquaculture veterinarian (mixed animal practice most likely), but I need some experience working in a facility, otherwise veterinary schools are not going to take me seriously. I can see the potential for aquaculture vets in the not so distant future, and I really would like to be at the forefront of it all.

I'm working my way gradually into the business and hope to have a pole barn up next year with some RAS and flow through holding tanks to augment my four ponds. I regularly produce my own bluegill and yellow perch and have sold some fish for stocking though. But I'm nowhere near big enough to offer much of an internship yet. Unfortunately that doesn't help you now.

Have you tried joining the American Fisheries Society and looking at postings there? Also there are various list serves you can get on that you can inquire. I'm on one that covers most of north central American that I can direct you to.

The NANFA website has job postings and internships also.

There is an abalone farm on the CA central coast that is a large operation. I think it is north of Cayucas. Maybe you could try there?

Greg,

I have been to the abalone farm. It is pretty cool, but I am mostly interested in sunfish, trout, and catfish.

Cecil,

It appears that the majority of the postings on the American Fisheries Society website are for M.A. or M.S. or permanent positions. None of which I am qualified for (unfortunately).

I did not find anything on the NANFA website that would fit the bill either.

I can't really move somewhere for an extended duration of time because I am married, and the wife would veto that idea.

Realistically, I am looking for hands on experience with a producer that would last 1-2 months. Preferably during the summer so that I can learn the ropes and substantiate my claim of having a keen interest in aquaculture.

Wow that limits your opportunities especially how California is making fish farmers jump through so many hoops these days just to stay in business. We're hearing on this board that many are either throwing in the towel or getting into the food market to avoid the hassle.

If you could just get away for a summer that would probably do it. Here in Indiana they have a biologist aid internship every summer with the DNR, and many other states do too. The competition is steep but I was able to be accepted with only a two year applied science degree. Of course the biologist I worked for that summer had to keep repeating the only reason I got in was I did a good job for another biologist with a creel survey. Apparently he had to keep making the point that my 2 year fisheries degree was inferior to a 4 year degree. Never mind my room mate has a degree in Marine biology and we were working with freshwater fish in Indiana! My roommate didn't know a bluegill from a bass!

If you could get your wife to accept a few months away from home it could open doors somewhere else.

Try calling Bobby Glennon of JM Malone and sons in Lonoke Arkaansas or Mike Friese of Keo fish farms in Keo Arkansas. Between the two guys they could provide MANY leads if they don't have an opening themselves.

Gflo, bear with me a little, and I might have a thought for you. I don't know of any fish farm opportunities for you. However, many of the state fish and wildlife agencies will hire summer help for their hatcheries.

For example, the SD Department of Game, Fish and Parks typically hires about 70 or so summer workers for their wildlife (and fish) division. A half dozen of those will be hatchery jobs at trout hatcheries in the Black Hills, or the warmwater/coolwater hatchery up in the northeastern part of the state. Most of the surrounding states do the same thing.

Most of these agencies announce their summer job openings in December or January. We post the announcements on our jobs page (link below). You'll need to watch both the internships and the summer positions. I warn you that this will be a little frustrating. There will be hundreds of temporary jobs, but only a few will be in fish culture. For states closer to you, I would suggest a weekly watch on their departmental web pages. Most agencies are having a hard time finding enough workers these days -- a BIG change from the past.

http://www.sdstate.edu/wfs/internship/index.cfm

Hope this helps!
Dave

Thank you all for the ideas! Keep them coming!

I also want to add that I would be working for free. I wouldn't expect anyone to pay a "trainee" who is not seeking a permanent position. That just wouldn't be right.

Heck, some positions will be paid. Take it if it's offered.

Gflo -- we actually recommend to our students that they take the paying positions. Now, pay is not always very good -- there are a lot of $9-12/hr positions in this temporary job classification. However, that's better than zero. In your case, I am NOT making a recommendation that you pass up the non-paying positions, as you may want something closer to home, and I'm not familiar with your options on the west coast. I am saying that in the interior of country, there are more paying summer positions than the agencies can fill (counting both the field positions and the fish culture positions). Hope that makes sense.

Dave,

I heard your part of the country didn't get hurt by the housing bubble collapsing as your real estate prices weren't inflated like the rest of the country, consequently your economy didn't get hit as hard. Is that really the case?

I do remember being astonished how reasonable a home could be bought near Devil's Lake several years ago when I was fishing out there.

Cecil, I'm far from expert on this stuff. My sense is that we had some small declines in house prices and they were taking a little while longer to sell. However, we do NOT have low real estate prices here. For example, we are at or above the Omaha level on real estate prices, based on some info in the newspaper that I seem to remember. To those of you who live in the populated areas of the country, we think Omaha is a big city.

Ah but are you in a college town?

Are you anywhere near where they struck oil?

Not even sure if it would be legal to hire someone for free.

Yes, it is a college town.

No oil, darn it. The BIG oil boom is western ND. They just started looking in northwest SD.

Hiring someone for free: the federal natural resource agencies, especially, have many "volunteer" programs. I suppose they have formalized the programs and the rules??

There are a number legal criteria (six to be exact) that must be met in order to allow an employer to use unpaid internships. This topic (unpaid internships) has become a hot button for the US Labor Department. It is permissible to use unpaid interns if the six criteria are met however it is very unusual for any for-profit (as opposed to a non-profit or tax-exempt entity) to successfully meet the criteria.

For those that are interested see the link below for more information.

US Department of Labor, Training and Employment Guidance Letter No. 12-09

Jeff,

I read the document in its entirety.

1. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the
employer, is similar to what would be given in a vocational school or academic
educational instruction;
2. The training is for the benefit of the trainees;
3. The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close
observation;
4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the
activities of the trainees, and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually
be impeded;
5. The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training
period; and
6. The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not entitled to
wages for the time spent in training.

I do not see how any of those criteria could not be easily met. I have worked in unpaid internships before in the companion animal veterinary field. A simple form with a signature verifying that I understand what I am getting into suffices.

The six criteria emphasize exactly what I am looking for. As I eluded too earlier, it doesn't make sense to pay someone that you are "training" and will not be making a career out of it at your facility. This training almost always comes at the expense of the business owner, with the trainee coming away with some technical skills and knowledge.

An employer / employee relationship does not exist.

You do not hire a trainee, nor do you promise to do so in the future, which is what makes it legal. A more common term would be "job shadowing", which is very popular in hospitals, veterinary clinics, etc.

Unpaid internships are offered out of the "goodness" of a business owner's heart, not so that they can benefit from slave labor.

I may have used the phrase "working for free" a little too liberally. It should have read, "will learn for free and hopefully not screw up your operation".

I was mainly responding to Dr Dave here. He asked about formalized rules and I provided a link to them.

But to respond to your statement, as I stated above, it is easier for a non-profit (tax exempt) entity to meet the requirements than a for profit company.

The primary reason for this is that a non-profit/tax exempt entity does not derive benefit from the good or services they provide (unlike a for profit entity whose sole purpose is to profit from the goods or services they provide). For most non profit organizations the primary purpose of the entity is to provide goods and services to specific groups of people or geographic areas regardless of the recipient's ability to pay for such services. So for a non profit entity meeting criterias 3 and 4 are fairly easy.

Many non profit organizations use unpaid interns and meet all of the criteria above.

Contrast that with a for-profit entity. A for profit entity is in business to provide goods or services to populations that have the ability to pay for the goods and services and thereby create profit. It is very difficult for a for profit entity to argue that a non-paid intern is not displacing regular employees and that the employer does not derive an immediate advantage from the (unpaid) activities of the intern.


False. There is a common misconception that merely signing a piece of paper will negate federal and state labor law and internal revenue code. As I stated before, if an entity meets all of the criteria and does not violate state minimum wage rules and regulations then it is perfectly acceptable to utilize an unpaid intern.


It is the US Department of Labor, or the State Department of Labor (most if not all states have their own entity that regulates labor practices in the state), or the Internal Revenue Service (who regulate the collection of federal payroll taxes) or state payroll tax authority (in California it is the Employment Development Department) that will ultimately determine whether or not an employer/employee relationship exists. This is not something that is merely decided upon by the employer and intern.


In the non-profit/tax exempt world I would venture to say that this is a true statement.

However it is naive to believe that a for profit entity uses an unpaid intern "out of the goodness of a business owner's heart." Neither I, nor the U.S. Department of Labor believe that.


Look, I'm all for the appropriate use of unpaid interns. Many non-profit organizations could not perform their noble work were it not for the use of either volunteers or unpaid interns.

I am just providing this as a warning, if you intend to use an unpaid intern then make sure that you meet all of the criteria. If you are a for-profit entity then your are going to have a difficult time convincing the labor department that you are not benefiting from the unpaid labor of the intern.

Gflo, I sincerely hope you are able to find a position that you enjoy and that benefits your career path.

I do see your points, and agree with them. I wasn't aware you were replying to Dr. Willis specifically (I blame this on poor reading comprehension and my third grade teacher), and that the information wasn't directed towards my specific situation.

But as far as a piece of paper that can be signed that will make the unpaid internship legitimate in my specific case...

It does exist. I have used it before. The state of California gave it to me through the university. Basically, I find a producer that would be willing to let me job shadow / ride along / learn technical skills. They say, OK we could do that. I ask the producer to speak with my departmental adviser, and if necessary the dean. They lay down the framework / scope of the internship, sign papers, decide how many units of upper division credit is merited for what I will be learning, and off I go.

This wouldn't be possible for me to do if I was not currently in college, so that makes me lucky I guess

Okay, one last try...

It is not the piece of paper that make the unpaid internship legal. Regulatory agencies will look at the six criteria and the actual fact and circumstance pattern on a case by case basis to determine whether or not labor law is being violated. There is no statue or regulation that exempts internships from federal or state minimum wage or overtime regulations.

Signed agreements between the employer and the employee (or intern) are typically given very little weight as reliable evidence - it is the fact pattern that will be considered the most reliable evidence.

As far as college credit, there is no exception to the law allowed just because the “intern” receives college credit for the work performed.

As I previously indicated this has become a hot topic for the U.S. Department of Labor and for many states. The State of California can and does rule on the allow-ability of unpaid interns. The legal use of unpaid interns has been upheld in circumstances in which they are appropriate.

What is becoming a hot topic is when an unpaid intern is placed in a for-profit environment. And this is happening, colleges are placing unpaid interns in a business. This does not circumvent labor law. Employers have been found in violation of labor law for using unpaid interns in violation of the criteria discussed above. The consequences of this for the employer are dire (large fines and penalties can and have been levied against employers for this).

As the unpaid intern, you have little risk.

The employer on the other hand (if it does not meet the criteria discussed above) takes a huge risk if they are found in violation of the labor law.

BTW, you don't have to take my word for any of this, merely google "unpaid intership" and read.

JHAP, rest assured knowing you are upping your 'useful post' count.

JHAP,

I really do understand the controversy, and I do appreciate the effort that you have put into educating me on the issue. I have had a similar discussion with my departmental adviser. I know that the paper itself isn't what will make it legitimate, but is the "fact pattern" or what actually takes place during the internship. Make no mistake, I am not interested in performing menial tasks such as filing papers, making coffee etc.

This is why a framework / agreement concerning the scope of the internship should be established, and executed to the T.

I do agree that some unpaid internships (maybe the majority, but I do not know for sure because I can only speak from my own experiences, and given my tender age of 23, I have had not had much of them yet) do benefit only the employer.

I had landed myself an internship at a small animal clinic where on the first day the manager wanted to "familiarize" me with their paper filing system so that I could "learn" more about how the hospital operates. I declined that "learning" opportunity (Even though I would have gotten to use a paper shredder. Hadn't used one of those before) and found another unpaid internship. This time things were different.

This time around I learned a lot of new skills, got to scrub in for surgery, and my problem solving abilities were tested and developed on a daily basis. I played a game with the vet. While he examined patients, I was challenged to make a diagnosis or develop a course of treatment for each patient.

At the end of the day, we would review my thought process and keep track of how many cases I was wrong about, and how many I was right about.

I was mostly wrong, but I learned how to think critically, and what it takes to be a veterinarian. The experience was extremely valuable to me, and the employer did not benefit from having me around. He did it truly out of benevolence, and the six criteria were satisfied. I almost felt like I should have paid him!

I would like to believe that there are other people out there like him, who would go out of their way to help others and see them succeed.

Am I a little naive about labor laws and that an employer may be looking for free labor? Probably more than a little.

If anything, your observations have caused me to re-evaluate whether or not I want to seek an internship position. Perhaps a one or two day training session where I am instructed in trout stripping or other technical skills would be more appropriate given the circumstances.

I hope that I did not come off as one of those think they know it all kids, because that could not be further than the truth.

Thank you guys for taking the time to help and guide me in the right direction.

Gflo, if I may, please let me offer what might be some good advice.

You may be experiencing the "can't see the forest because of the trees" syndrome.

I think you are over-complicating your situation.

Why get hung-up over whether a position is unpaid or paid? Just expose yourself to any and every opportunity there is to get the experience you desire.

In essence, you are putting blinders on yourself, in my opinion, or subconsciously distracting yourself by dissecting the issue of paid vs. unpaid internship, when instead, you could be focusing on a hard-target job search.

Why waste crucial time investigating this issue when you have yet to be offered a suitable position for yourself?

Your right Sunil,

It appears I was an accessory to hijacking my own thread! lol

I lost focus of the original intention of my thread. I just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be getting into anything illegal.

Getting way ahead of myself huh?

Thank you.