Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations HSB

I have been very concerned about the condition of our HSB, in particular after alarming reports of die-off of larger fish.

Yesterday I “surveyed” our pond with fly rod in hand, and caught numerous fat and sassy HSB in the 15-16 inch range, weighing between 1½ pounds to 2 ponds.

These fish were stocked by Todd Overton 11-08-2005.

Larger HSB must be feeding on BG and Tilapia since none were at feeders, but did have one on that that took my fly line into the backing twice before “long distance release”.

My goal for HSB is strictly for the fun of fishing a tremendous sport fish, and the let the records fall to those who wish. Maybe 5 pound HSB die off in the summer – maybe they don’t. I don’t believe there is enough experience in Texas farm ponds to draw that conclusion.

I will be a happy guy to fish for 2 –3 pound HSG the rest of my life.
I have ordered 50 of Overton’s largest stockers for our ¼ acre “grow- out pond” to transfer to main pond next spring, and if necessary stock more at that time.

I did not put excessive pressure on our HSB this summer, but had no problem with resuscitation reviving using oxygen aeration – in fact I did not lose a single fish that I know of, however the largest being only 3 pounds.

I will stock HSB aggressively annually to maintain a fun fishery.
If they made it through the past record-breaking heat wave in a pond 4-5 foot low, I can only dream of what lies ahead with optimum water quality.

George. Can you inform us as to your maximum water temps that you see in the summer? Remember that since HSB are hybrids that all of their traits, including ability to withstand warm water, can vary depending on genetic factors. An example would be resistance to salinity. It's been proven that some HSB can withstand salinities up to and including actual seawater at 35 ppt. Other HSB may only be able to withstand salinities up to 15 ppt. When it comes to warm water, if you stock enough fish, you may have some that go belly up at 80 degrees and others that may make it up to 90 degrees, depending on whether the fish inherit this particular trait more from the WB parent or the SB parent. Oxygen is more of a limiting factor. The point I'm trying to make is that if you maintain good water quality, especially DO levels, that it would be logical that you would lose some but not all of your fish during a warm summer. Don't be surprised that if you avoid a major DO crash that a 5 pounder will pop up when you least expect it next fall. If you continue to stock high quality fast growers you'll continue to have the fun and enjoyment of the 2-3 pounders, but not necessarily be limited as to the size you may achieve.

I have some Hybrids in my pond. I saw summer temps as high as 93 one foot down during a heat spell. I did not have any areation this year. I did not take DO levels or temps at depths lower the one foot. I did not have any Hybrid stipers or any fish go belly up. I read all kinds of stuff saying you should not feed over 85 or so but I was just like a little kid and fed them anyway, they seemed to eat more but I did curb the food a little when temps were that high.

Recently in NC we has a warm spell. My fish woke up, even the CC are eating. I was hopeing to see some Albinos but didnt. I am sure a few of the trout I just put in were eating. I am sure the warm spell woke a few bass up to a trout dinner.

Joey, you're just like I was a few years ago. No pond is immune forever from overfeeding unless you have a high flowthrough situation. Feeding agressively during times of warm/hot water has a cumulative effect as the nutrients build and build. Do as you wish, but don't expect to be able to do this indefinitely. Remember that a half hour oxygen crash can ruin years of work.

Your right, thats why I am a newbie. Good thing nothing went wrong. This year I will some areation. I am sure if temps get that high this year I wont feed them. Like I said like a kid in a candy store with the pond for a while. You have to admit.. We are all living a dream, I know I am.

George those Hybrids in the net look really nice. Wish I has a dozen or so more like that. I put enough fish in for a while now its time to sit back and let um grow up.

Bruce, thanks for your response.
Our hottest water temp observed this summer was 87 degrees, but it was too hot to venture outside with record days of 100+ days, so probably hotter.

My main HSB analogy is to striped bass, which normally suspend at the thermocline when near surface temps are about 83 degrees and above.

We have fairly frequent summer die offs of stripers in the 10+pound range, usually with low water and air temps over 100+ degrees.

I had a report of one large striper kill this year, which is not an unusual occurrence.
IMO, as well as others, this is the main reason Texoma is known for large numbers of stripers, if not for size. Gill net surveys conducted by both Oklahoma Dept. of Fisheries and TP&W, document the fact that deaths of limited numbers of large stripers have a minimal effect on the striper population.

As with stripers, I do not fish for HSB when near surface water temps exceed 83 degrees, and expect some loss of larger fish, but not all.

If my HSB/SB analogy is correct, I do expect some survival of the larger and healthier HSB, but my appreciation for HSB in the 2 –3 pound range will continue with great respect and expectations.

Bruce, we are plowing new ground with HSB in Texas farm ponds, and I really appreciate your sharing your experience and knowledge with us.
I am looking forward to learning more when you and Todd are at the PB conference in March.

Thanks again

George do you have this paper?


Hybrid striped bass population characteristics and community impacts in farm ponds: understanding a supplemental predator in established systems

By
Jason Wesley Neal


Surface temperatures in North Carolina can often reach 35°C, (95 F) and a thermal
refuge must be available with adequate dissolved oxygen levels. This was the case in our
ponds for all temperature-oxygen profiles recorded, although this refuge apparently
disappeared briefly, resulting in the fish kills. Because fish kills have not been as severe a
problem on these ponds in the past, it appears that the kills were artifacts of the unusual
weather of 1995. Each fish kill appeared to affect largemouth bass and hybrids equally,
and no mortality of hybrids was noted as conditions deteriorated. Therefore, it is likely
that hybrids can survive in North Carolina ponds that support largemouth bass and sunfish populations.

Bruce:

IIRC there are some HSB traits that vary with Palmetto versus Sunshine crosses; you make it sound like salinity and temperature tolerance are NOT dependent on what Momma was. Are they?

Yep, I have it...
What I remember most of all is he clasic "biogaphy" of the author.

If I recall correctly - no aeration or suppemetal feeding was utilized in this experiment.

Female striped bass x white bass (Palmetto Bass) were used rather than our commonly used female white bass x striped bass (Sunshine Bass).

The female white bass parent is much more tolerant to stress than the female striped bass parent

Timely information – thanks much.

We use sunshine bass here. There's been some controversy as to the performance of sunshine vs. palmetto bass. I'm not aware of any definitive study that proved one way or t'other.

As George stated, the female white bass holds up better to stress than the female striper, so a lot of hatcheries have the sunshine bass so they don't have to babysit female stripers for months on end.

I'd use either and expect similar results. I've seen both palmetto and sunshine bass that exceeded 15 pounds.

Not sure which type I have can you guys look at this link and tell which. This where i got the first ones, there doing really good. I put 25 really little ones in late spring but I have not see any, I think the bass got them, they were only 2-4 inches with most being 2-3.

http://www.southlandfisheries.com/stripedbassmain.htm

Bruce,

Would that be in small ponds and/or climate conditions like I have in East Texas? I've caught some large hybrids also out of nearby Lake Conroe(don't know if they were Palmetto or Sunshine), but a large lake is a far different environment than a small East Texas pond. I have been unable to find anyone, anywhere near my Lat/Long. that has raised a HSB anywhere near that size in a small pond.

We have a pond of about 4 acres and over the years have stocked threadfin shad twice(10,000 each time), gizzard shad twice(20 to 30 pounds each time as I recall), Tilapia every spring(at a rate of about 10 pounds per acre), feed ample quantities of high protein Rangen feed, aerate, have large areas of open water of 20 foot depths, and will add rainbows to the mix this winter. I don't expect to see 15 pound HSB, but would like to see the 8 to 10 pound HSB that these fish were reportedly able to attain in small East Texas ponds. What am I doing wrong? How long would it take to raise a 15 pound HSB in a small East Texas pond? Or an 8 to 10 pound HSB?

Do you know of someone, anyone in Texas or near my Lat/Long that has pond raised 15 pound HSB? I'd seriously like to talk to them and pay them a visit and my respects.

I have raised some stupendous Florida strain LMB in that same pond and have caught a CNBG that I still dream about.....15 pound HSB? I'd settle for the advertized 8 pounds. Thanks.

Here's the 15 pounder that I raised in my pond. I caught him 3 times, all on flyrod. Much fun!



My summers get as hot as East Texas, but not for as long a duration. I also have the option of pumping some fresh water when needed.

I don't know of anybody who raises HSB in your area, except for those already members of Pond Boss forum. There really is nothing limiting about the space in a pond vs. space in a large reservoir. Fish don't know how big the water body is. The true limiting factors are forage (which isn't a big deal if you feed or supplement with live forage items), and water quality. Water quality is a bigger factor. HSB get stressed when the water temp gets into the mid 80's. My temps only stay there for a week or two, and keep dipping lower to provide relief to the fish. Your temps go there and stay there for prolonged periods. These are times that the HSB don't eat well, are more susceptible to disease and water holds significantly less oxygen. I think that's what truly limits HSB in your region. If you could really baby those fish with high water quality the entire summer these fish would grow to 15 pounds and get there a lot quicker than mine would.

Keep in mind as well that only the females get this big, and only ones with good genetics. The true females probably only represent 15% of the fish in total, and fish with the great genes are probably only 10% of those. That means that only 1 or 2 fish out of 100 can get this big. If you lose 30% to attrition every year from water quality issues and angler handling, well.....you can see why this size fish is difficult to attain.

If anybody can do it, I'm sure it's you.

Bruce,

That's one beautiful fish. I salute you.

Yes, my water temps are above 80 degrees 4 to 5 months of the year and right at 90 degrees in the upper water column for six to eight weeks. I'm convinced those temps coupled with lack of water exchange during those high temp months the past two summers has really taken a toll on the growth rates of the larger HSB, not to mention mortality.

Shows once again that different regions of the country can provide very different results for the same fish. It looks to me like HSB in my East Texas ponds will only be a small to medium sized fun food fish, but fish over 5 pounds will be very rare, if ever, and summertime catching of anything over 3 pounds not advisable. I'm still hoping I'm wrong. Thanks for posting the great picture!

My HSB analogy continues to be Striped Bass, having extensive experience with Lake Texoma stripers, and to a lesser extent, striped bass at Lake Ouachita in Arkansas.

Lake Texoma is a much shallower lake, with some times poor water quality due to low water and high summer temperatures, whereas Lake Ouachita is much deeper with much cooler water temps, resulting in much better water quality.

Lake Texoma produces “trophy” stripers in the 20+ pound range, whereas Ouachita produces “trophy” sizes in the 40+ pound range.

Using Bruce’s 15-pound “trophy” HSB as an example, a Texas 8 pound HSB seems to be a reasonable probibility.

Great fish Bruce...

Bruce,

Here is a picture of one of the skulls recently brought to my attention by "Duke" the wonder dog. Apologize for the poor quality, but Duke hasn't learned the finer points of retriving yet.

This is a HSB and I believe one of the "large" ones (large for me) of 4 to 5 pounds by my estimation. The skull came from the pond, courtesy of Duke, otherwise I would have never known of the lost fish. It could have died from a number of things, but my signs point to summer mortality.

Baro reports from previous post:
http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003559

“I have a 3/4 acre pond that received aeration 24/7 til last month. I supplemented the water with deep well water....so it didn't get low with the drought. It is 13' at the deepest with about 1/2 at about 5' and deeper.”

With the knowledge I have gained from personal HSB experience, and what I have learned from the experience from other forum members, if I had BarO’s water well to maintain water quality in hot drought Texas summers, 8#+ HSB would not only be a possibility, but a probability.

BarO, where are you located in E. Texas?
I volunteer to contribute to a HSB stocker fund if you will let me observe your breaking the HSB record for Texas Private Waters.

George,

You are peaking my interest...... I had no idea that HSB could get that big in a pond. The pic of Bruce's fish was really something. How much do the HSB stockers run approximately? I have some 4-5# LMB in the pond that are always looking for a new food source.

I am 15 miles west of Tyler off of Hwy 31. by Brownsboro.

P.S. Where could have 2,000 bullfrogs(3-4" stretched out) have gone overnight.....they left after a rain 2 weeks ago. About 100 remained for seed.

If you don't mind me taking one of the questions here...

HSB stockers usually run less than a buck apiece for fish up to 6 inches. Once they go beyond that it's a whole different story. 6-8's could go $1.50+ and fish bigger than that are usually whatever the seller can get for them. I've sold 16 inchers for $11.00 and had no problem finding buyers.

Thanks Bruce, not as bad as I anticipated. How many do you add to a 3/4 acre pond without hurting the quality of life/forage of the CNBG & LMB?

Just remember that you can cull them pretty hard the second year that they are in. It's relatively easy to start removing slower growers during year two, so you could realistically start with 60 fish, and try to knock it down to 30-35 the second year. If you are monitoring your feed consumption and water clarity you can fine tune the number from there.

BarO,
There is a very important point that Bruce has mentioned in prior posts for raising “trophy” HSB:

Water quality:
1. A water well for maintaining water level and controlling excessive summer temps, which you have. I am concerned about your earlier post about a DO crash earlier in the summer, yet you have constant well water flow and 24/7 aeration. Do you “splash aerate” your well water, before adding to pond? Cecil Baird has good information in prior posts – maybe an archive search?

2. Since you are in E. Texas “piney woods” area, water analysis is necessary to determine alkalinity/hardness, but you likely have this information. Lime application is required in many cases.

Another point that I frequently emphasize is LMB predation:

4 – 5# LMB will devastate 4-6 inch HSB, unless certain measures are taken to protect them. To “grow-out” HSB to large sizes, ewest will likely suggest “fencing off” a small area, Cecil Baird and Bill Cody will likely address “cage culture”.

I personally prefer to purchase “expensive” largest available HSB stockers available, a small cost compared to other pond expense. I also have a ¼ acre “grow out “ pond that I’m trying again after poor results last season due to low water.

I am meeting Todd Overton in Canton tomorrow, only a few miles west of you, to pick up 50 HSB stockers for our “grow-out “pond.

I believe it to be well within the realm of probability to grow “trophy size” HSB with the water source and quality that you have in your pond, as long as DO is maintained with optimum aeration, and an aggressive feeding program with high protein feed.

Personally I’m not interested in growing “trophy” fish of any kind – just fun fish that will stretch my line, and HSB will outfight any fish in your pond.

If you follow the advice of the pros on this forum, I have no doubt you will succeed.
IMO, Bruce Condello and Todd Overton are the guys to listen to regarding HSB.

Good luck

Thanks George.

1) My DO crash came the day after I got back from a 2 week vacation. I was using the "splash" method and supplementing the level of water when the crash occurred. After discussions with Dr. Bruce, I believe I had an algae crash. The aerator was running 24/7 but could not keep up with the O2 loss from the algae crash. I have since installed Condello's "Super Horizontal Oxygenator" on the well supply as another safeguard to a future DO crash.
My well water supply is not constant(seemed constant because of the drought)just to bring the pond up to a conservation level.

2) I have already limed my pond and keep it monitored. Alkalinity was about 40/PPM in September....PH a little high at 8.0

My next step should be contacting Todd and checking availability of some larger stockers.

P.S. How large would the cage area need to be?
Thanks again.

BarO,

We tightened our belts this summer and didn't spread our HSB stock out much for growth to advanced size (7"+). So the largest fish out of our current stock are probably just at the 7" mark. You might wait to stock until we have some solid 7"+ fish, in order to avoid predation from your bass. We can try and harvest during cold months with the electrofishing boat in order to get you some fish free of winter handling stress.

If you are thinking about a cage, the best size is 4ft deep x 4ft wide x 8ft long. Ewest might have a reference for cage culture to share with us.

Hope we can help.

Google "Hybrid Stripe Bass" and "cage culture" and you will get some very good info.