Pond Boss Forums STOCKING A NEW POND Types of fish to choose GEORGIA GIANTs VS. COPPERNOSE BLUEGILL

what is the difference between these fish ? Thanks.

The Georgia Giant is a hybrid cross (considered proprietary by the purveyor) between a strain of green sunfish females, crossed with a strain of bluegill males. They are used in ponds for fast growing game fish and will make it beyond a pound. In some areas of the nation, they'll grow larger, but for the most part, expect them to grow almost to a pound. They don't reproduce much.
Coppernose bluegill are a strain of bluegill native to the deep southeast, Florida, Georgia and Alabama, but stocked in waters all over the south and southwest. They grow large, some bigger than two pounds where they have good nutrition and population control (usually bass). They are considered the backbone of the food chain in bass lakes where they are stocked, since they reproduce heavily...as many as five times yearly in the south. So, coppernose are both a game fish and forage fish in their own rights.

Wasn't the so-called "Georgia Giant" a hybrid?

EDIT - The Pond Boss answered the question as I was typing.:D

So in your opinion you think that coppernose is better due to the bigger pounds Hopefully so. These bluegill I have now are just the northern strain and don't bite much if any I am thinking of removing them and adding the coppernose

KG, do you live in the south? CNBG will only prosper in warmer waters. How do you intend to remove the BG you currently have? That's a pretty tall task. I would find out why the ones you have "aren't biting". All BG bite, regardless of genetics.

I will figure something out. Thanks for all the info. on these fish. I wish I knew more about the Florida Black Bass & how its different from the regular northern LMB

KG4KBU, Let these Pond Boss give you some solutions to your problem. Its a lot easier to have a lot of people help solve a problem than just one. We're just here to help, not criticize(sp).

Bring on your questions.....You have people all over the country willing to help you.

As has been said KG, both Coppernose and Florida Largemouths have problems the farther north one goes. It's just too cold in the winter for them. The philosophy here is you're better off planting fish that are acclimated to your region.

That said, there is no reason you can't have an excellent pond planting northern largemouths and bluegills. Be aware that there is no replacement for knowledge, and there is no silver bullet fish regardless of how creative the marketing names are.

Not only is the magazine Pond Boss a good source for pond management information (back issues and lists of topics are available), Bob Lusk has some excellent books available on the subject listed on this website.

Ditto what CB1 said - here is a free one from me. Check out PB mag.

THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW
By Eric West


Coppernose Bluegill vs. Regular Bluegill – which one for you?


A question we often get on the Pond Boss Forum is should I stock Regular Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus or Coppernose Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus mystacalis also previously classified and referred to as Lepomis m. purpurescens . To answer that question we should look at the traits of both and use the one that will work best for the particular goals for the water in question. As we all know traits come from genetics. So what is the difference in the genetics of Coppernose vs. Regular Bluegill? Well it started a long time ago and it took a long time to get there. Here is the basic story. Millions of years ago peninsular Florida was, like it is today, connected to the mainland. Bluegill were present all over the eastern US. Sea level rose and peninsular Florida was cut off by the sea from the mainland creating two separate populations. Bluegill on both the mainland and on the peninsula continued to evolve separately each influenced by local conditions with a divergence time of roughly 2.3 million years. After a few million years of this separate path sea level fell and the two land masses were connected again. However the two bluegill sub-species were now a little different genetically. The rivers were connected and the two subspecies migrated and integrated in a zone along the deep southeast where the two sub-species mixed. If this sounds familiar it should – it’s the same story as the Florida Largemouth Bass and the Northern Largemouth Bass where the divergence time between Northern (M. salmoides) and Florida (M. floridanus) bass is approximately 2.8 million years. If you know one story you should have a fairly good idea of outcome of the other. Surely as a pond owner you have heard the bass story. Florida Bass get bigger under the proper circumstance and do not due well in cold climates. Yes Bluegill have a similar story.

Coppernose Bluegill get bigger under the right circumstance but do not flourish in colder climates. In fact Coppernose are susceptible to poor results and substantial winter kill in northern US regions as are Florida Largemouth Bass. So how do you tell Coppernose and Regular Bluegill apart. Take a look at the pictures included. The Coppernose has a copper band across its head/nose in adult males, has fewer and wider vertical bars, has orangish/red fin margins and tail coloration , 12 anal fin rays and often light/white fin edges most visible when young. The Regular Bluegill has 11 anal fin rays and none of the other traits mentioned.

So how do they compare? Here are some points from a study on the subject titled Performance Comparison between Coppernose and Native Texas Bluegill Populations by John A. Prentice and J. Warren Schlechte in the 2000 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 54 at pgs 196-206 looking at growth (size at age) , survival and catchability.

Coppernose Bluegill were significantly larger than Native Bluegill in all scenarios tested with the largest observed difference being 19.2 mm total length (.756 inch) and 33.5 grams ( 1.18 ounces) over 2 years. At 3 years there was a 16 mm (.63 inch) difference on average and at 4 years 24 mm (.945 inch). With other fish species present there was no difference in angling vulnerability between the types. Spawning activity of the brooders began at the same time (last week of Feb in 1995 and first week of March in 1997) and produced the same size offspring for tagging at the same time each year ( mid-April) in what appeared to be similar numbers. Survival of young of the year Coppernose was substantially greater than for Native Bluegill.

Before you draw to many conclusions note this was in Texas where the weather is close to that of the Coppernose’s native range. That is a critical key to success with Coppernose. While there is an often cited study titled Cold Tolerance in Two Subspecies of Bluegill by , A. J. Sonski , K. E. Kulzer , and J. A. Prentice, in the 1988 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 42 at pgs 120-127 , that states Coppernose and Native Bluegill have similar cold tolerances the key is the test was done on bluegill all from the same area (Texas). Its purpose was to determine if Coppernose could survive the Texas climate. There is substantial observed and anecdotal evidence that Coppernose do not do well in cold climates (roughly north of the north line of Arkansas/Tennessee extended) . In the far northern US Coppernose become subject to high winterkill rates. This would be consistent with their similar relationship to Florida Largemouth Bass which have repeatedly been tested to do poorly and die in cold climates. The study first cited above was also in ponds with no supplemental feeding. Reported scientific evidence is substantial that in ponds the most common cause of reduced growth is a shortage of food. It is not known how much, if any, of the early growth difference between the two sub-species was due to limited forage. The two sub species will integrate (inter-breed) with the offspring exhibiting mixed traits and no apparent negatives but there is very little published data on them.

So the answer to the question should I stock Coppernose Bluegill or Regular (native) Bluegill or both is – it depends. Your location (climate) and your goals are key factors. If you are in the Deep South or the Southwest (including Southern California) and not at high elevation (Appalachian, Rocky or Sierra Mountains) Coppernose should be considered. In short is your temperature profile similar to those areas? To some extent management practices and the existing bluegill population, if any, are also possible factors. Whichever type you choose keep in mind that the most important factor to growing nice bluegill is to be sure they have enough food to eat and not to much competition.



Regular Bluegill pics

Good post Eric!

Outstanding, Eric. Just another example of why this is such a great forum!

Eric summarized well the topic of northern and southern strains of BG. His quote of: "the most important factor to growing nice bluegill is to be sure they have enough food to eat and not to much competition" is VERY important. Many pondowners do not fully understand this key factor for growing most all species of fish so they reach their full potential. In many instances, crowding results in slow growth. Lack of food due to too many fish results in food shortages for the desired species that are over abundant resulting in slow or reduced growth. Natural food reserves in a pond are not limitless. Each pond has a set amount of natural fish foods that it will naturally grow or produce. Manufactured fish foods and/or fertilizers can increase or boost the overall productivity of a pond and enhance the fish biomass. Then the 'trick' is to know or learn how many fish will best utilize the available food supply.

Performed or managed correctly, the northern strain of BG can regularly and easy produce numerous individuals in the 9"-11" range. For more reading about growing big BG check out this link from the PBoss Archives:

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=189988#Post189988

To echo Bill's comment. The most often encountered causes for poor results from pond fish populations are :

1. a shortage of food
2. poor population mgt (incorrect harvest) , and
3. water quality problems

everything else builds off those factors.

IMO mis-management of fish numbers is probably the biggest cause of poor fisheries and overall too many small fish. I renovated a 1/3 acre pond last Saturday. Collected after about 4 hrs about 7 gallons (abt 53 lbs) of fish biomass. Five of those fish were grass carp 14"-24" long(17 lbs), 5 CC(13"-22", 18.3lbs) and 3 LMB (6"-10" 1.1 lb) were brought up. Remaining fish (17 lbs) were small BG and crappie(BC); largest were 7". Definately unbalanced. Owner - aerated, fed low protein fish food, and used blue dye.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!What a website!!!!