Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Too many big catfish

This is my first posting, but I've been lurking in the weeds for quite some time. I apologize in advance for the length of this posting.

About a year-and-a-half ago we bought a place in northern West Virginia that has, what appears to be, a very well designed and professionally built half-acre pond. The pond was built about 15 years ago.

Unfortunately, before we bought the place, the pond was not mangaged for over five years, possibly as many as eight or nine.

My goal is to manage it for big bluegill and a reasonable channel cat population.

Right now, I believe I have a problem with way too many really big catfish. I don't know how to get them out!

There are at least 10 channel cats in the 28 to 36 inch range. The last one I was able to catch was 28-inches, and 8-1/2 pounds. There are probably another 15 to 20 that are 18 to 24 inches long. The taste you get in your mouth when you change a vaccuum cleaner bag is kind of how the big ones taste. I'm fairly certain it is they who have burrowed big holes in the north side shoreline of my pond. They've got to go!

There are also at least four grass carp. One is about 18 inches, one about 24 inches, and then there are two bruisers that are somewhere between 3 and 4 feet in length. I think I'd like to get rid of the two big grass carp.

There is also one black and orange koi that is about 24 inches long and fat as an old pig. He is kind of pretty, so I'd kind of like to keep him.

There isn't a weed or plant anywhere in the pond.
The pond is a lot muddier than I think it should be.

I've got a good selection of very skinny bass that range from this year's hatch to about 14 inches. I'm worried about how skinny the bass are that are over 10-inches. All sizes of the bass are very aggressive biters, but they don't fight very much.

I seem to have had a reasonable selection of good fat bluegill, but, I'm worried about them too. Between March and mid-June, I harvested about 40 BG that were 9 to 11 inches. I hope I didn't take too many.

There are also some black crappie, and over the winter I harvested about about a dozen in the 11 the 12 inch range. I wish they weren't in there, but they are pretty good eating, and there doesn't seem to be an overabundance of them -- yet.

I started feeding this spring using farm pond floating fish food from Tractor Supply. Before it really warmed up, lots of bluegill were feeding every evening. Since about mid-June, it has been almost exclusively the catfish and the grass carp that are feeding. Although, several bass are also feeding on the fish food. (I mostly stopped feeding about two weeks ago when I got serious about trying to catch the catfish.)

Now the dilemma. I can't catch the catfish. Instead, I keep getting the bass, and it is hard on them.

I've tried chicken liver. The bass grab it within seconds of it hitting the water. I've tried cut-up bluegill. The bass grab it. I've tried medium sized live bluegill (5 -7 inches), and the bass grab them. I've tried chumming and a 5-foot casting net. More bass and a few little bluegill. Nothing bit the dough balls I bought, nor the dough I made.

Last night I tried a hot dog on one of my smaller saltwater rigs. I put the rod in a holder and set the drag loose. I went up to the house to get something. When I got back, I found a 12-inch bass that choked to death on the hotdog! (I was going to put up a picture of the hot dog stuck in the fish's throat, but couldn't figure out how post a photo.)

How do I get the catfish out of my pond so I can start over with smaller ones?

I'm about to try either my 12-gauge shotgun with buckshot, or my .22.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ken

Catmandoo,
Here is what I would try,
1. Using a hotdog your thinking too small get a large 3-6 cirlce hook put a huge chunk off bloody, nasty, left out too long, meat on the hook and wait a cat that big is all mouth and they will eat a football if it smells bad enough.

2. Rather than shooting a gun into the water (never a good idea) call a friend who is a bow hunter and put some meat by the shore line.

3. If you can see the holes in the side of the pond and you are brave enough, put a fish glove on and reach in and grab them out(push a stick in first to make sure that it is a fish hole)

Either way this should be fun not a pain get some refreshments and a few lawn chairs and have a catmandont party...

Maki

Those are some big cats. IMO if you are limited to 35-40 of them, it's a number that can be whittled down.

Search the Q&O and Controlling Fish topics for catfish control threads - there have been a lot of discussions with lots of different ideas. Here are some highlights, some of which I have used myself successfully:

1. Utilize a varied and varying approach. Fish with fairly heavy tackle, use jugs, use a trotline.

2. Vary your baits to keep 'em hitting. Stinkbaits, liver, cut and whole fish, and more. Try the self-replenishing bait - naked catfish tails (I have had decent results using post-fillet catfish tails cut into thirds on jugs).

3. If you get the cats feeding regularly, you can throw a baited hook into the midddle of the pellets and get them there. I have been able to pull a couple of big cats a week out using this method.

CCs can be pretty smart, so you have to alternate and rotate methods and keep adding new ones.

P.S. After they eat fish feed for a while, see if the taste has improved. I have this hypothesis that eating fish feed makes CC taste better than when they are scrounging their meals.

Try baiting a trotline, juglines or rod and reels after dark . The bass are dormant at night and the catfish are active. Cutbait or chicken liver should work the best.

First, I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful comments.

Several I've already acted upon. Several others, I've already tried. A couple others ... well, more on that below.

Based on Maki's suggestions, I stopped on the way home from work last night and bought the very largest bait hooks I could find. I also bought 10 pounds of chicken quarters.

Last night, just before dark, I threw out a big jug with half a chicken quarter. I embedded two large bait hooks in the meat.

I had a surprise before I went to work this morning. The jug was in the lower brances of a willow that overhangs the big holes the catfish have excavated. The line led to the mouth of one of the big holes. Ah ha! I knew I had a big one when I started pulling on the line. I wasn't quite prepared for the hissing and really bad mood of a snapper about 18-inches long. He's currently taking a mineral bath in a salt/sugar brine and will be the main guest at dinner on Friday night.

That brings me to my next subject. Maki suggested noodling. If this guy was living in one of these holes, I'm sure glad I didn't stick any of my appendages in there.

For another of Maki's suggestions, I'm having a fishing party Friday night. I've invited some of my old buddies who I've fished with on the Potomac, Shenandoah, Rappahannock, and James Rivers here in WV and VA. They all have their secrets for landing big cats. We'll see.

The last big cat I got out of the pond came using one of Theo Gallus' suggestions. I threw a piece of liver in the middle of a feeding frenzy. That produced a 28-incher in about a second -- about 2 months ago. That was the last cat I caught this season. They scatter as soon as they see my line.

I chuckeled when I read Theo Gallus' suggestion of using bare catfish tails as bait. It reminded me of how my dad suggested I catch birds. He told me to put salt on their tail feathers. When they were licking it off, he told me that was the time to grab them. I guess if I could catch a catfish, I could use its tail for bait.

I don't know that I've read every post on the PondBoss website, but I sure have read a lot of them. I did an additional search today to see if I missed something. It again re-inforced what a wonderful site this is, and it has given me a lot more ideas of how to get outsmarted.

Thanks again to everyone.

Here's wishin'good fishing to everyone,

Ken

PFF, you have got to try fishing for bass at night. It is a blast!!! It is one of the few times I can consistantly get bass to hit on top water baits. Other noisy baits work as well.

I have been fishing for 45 years with cutbait and liver at night and I have yet to catch a bass. Caught tons of catfish though.

Agree, PFF, if the bass are hitting meat, they have got to be hungry. The crappie are out competing the bass for small BG. Sounds like you need to introduce lot of golden shiners and at least 1 more type minnow. Put up a blocking net in shallow water and let them spawn. Try mixing the cut hot dogs with some water and 'hog wild' catfish bait, and let it soak over night.. That should deter the bass. With crappie, bass and large cats, you need more small forage.

Sorry, my previous post was off topic and apparantly confusing. I am not indicating you will catch bass with cut bait at night. I agree that is a great way to catch catfish while minimizing LMB casualties.

Your 'dormant' statement made it sound like perhaps you have never fished for bass at night so I thought you may want to try it sometime. Perhaps you are an expert night bass fisherman and I appologize if I am insulting your intelligence. I just get excited when I think about fishing for LMB at night. Everyone should try it.

During the hot weather (in our ponds) many LMB feed more at night than in the day. I have caught lots of LMB at night. We will go to the oxbow lakes and find the shad by noise (sit in the boat and listen for the LMB top water strikes). Then we will turn on a light to illuminate them and the LMB will attack. We will cast a top water bait in there and the fun starts. Never fished for LMB with live or cut bait at night.

Burgermeister, and others,

Thanks for the idea of the golden shiners. That may provide a little more food for the hungry bass. I'm on vacation next week, and not that far from a couple different hatcheries, so I can probably get it accomplished.

The square pond is exactly 1/2-acre, average depth about 6-feet, with a maximum of 9 feet. Except at the dam, the sides drop almost immediately to 3-feet, and fairly quickly to about 5-feet. Late last winter I intentionally dropped several small Virginia pines out into the pond for cover until I can get some decent structure installed. Their butt ends are on the shore and they extend about 10 to 15 feet straight out from the shoreline. Except for a dock, that is the only structure in the pond that I'm aware of. There isn't a bit of grass or weed anywhere. (Two of the big grass carp are next on the hit list.)

I think I can put a blocking net near my overflow area. I installed a fence at the pond edge there late last year to keep the grass carp in if it should ever overflow. The pond in that area drops off rather gradually.

Then I have a few questions that hopefully someone can help me with:

Should the fencing/netting be big enough to allow the golden shiners to go back and forth into the main part of the pond while I'm waiting for them to spawn?

Due to the lack of structure and weeds, would a pile of rocks be adequate for them to spawn on?

Would ten pounds of shiners be adequate to start with?

Are there any downsides or other worries about stocking golden shiners?

And, what about other additional forage? Fat heads maybe? Somewhere here on PondBoss I think I recall seeing concerns about accidentally introducing bullheads when stocking fat heads. If I buy from a reputable fishery (like Zett's in Inwood, WV) are the chances pretty good that their stocks are pure?

Again, I want to thank everyone for their assistance.

Ken

Sorry Jayman, I didn't mean that the way it must have sounded. I just did not want catmandoo to give up on the night fishing for his catfish.

I love any kind of top water Bass fishing. I was hooked at the age of 12 on a private pond that had a couple of acres about 2.5' deep me and a friend were wading in shorts and tennis shoes catching monster (to me at that age) 2 - 5# bass. Once in a thunderstorm I found them going crazy on top water poppers and had the time of my life until the wind got up. I have never fished for them at night. I always thought of them as dormant. In my trotline days of live perch for flathead I caught a few but I always thought they probably bit at daybreak. Thank you. I will try bass fishing at night sometime.

PFF,

Don't worry about me. The day (or night) I give up fishing for any kind of fish will be the day (or night) they are turning me into ashes!

Ken

PFF.. Don't worry about me either. No need to appologize. In fact, you should be given a gold star for staying on topic.

i just really am enjoying this thread. Welcome Cat. Also , I have yet to catch any of the "cats" in my pond and now I have a few good ideas thanks guys.Once again the greatness of Pondboss

You should try Cecil Baird's pantyhose fly. Do a search under that word. You tie a cluster of feed
pellets together with a patch of pantyhose tied off with monofilament line. Just bait your hook with it and feed trained catfish or whatever will accept it readily. You can make it too big for bluegill to take.

yes, good thread. I have a question for you catmandoo......you've described yer pond as weed free but you want to get rid of the grass carp....just curious as to your reasons on that and sorry if i missed something.

. . . just a quick note.

Seven of us fished tonight for about two hours after sundown. One bass on "marinated" hot dogs. Two bass on chicken liver. None seemed too stressed, so they all went back.

We didn't get Bubba, but I got Junior -- pictures tomorrow. Thirty-four inches, 15-1/2 pounds. 7-1/2 pounds of completely cleaned/skinned filets.

His mouth -- inside lip to inside lip, was 5-1/2 inches side-to-side. He could have easily gobbled a really big bluegill. When I opened him up, he was completely filled with milt. Only one small fish in his stomach -- probably a 2-inch bass, could have been a crappie. Mostly just eyeballs and the skeleton. Nothing else but stomach acid.

Time for bed.

Ken

{Esoterica for demented advanced PM's with CC; normal PMs ignore}

WRT Junior:

Mouth/Length = 5.5"/34" = 0.16.

Thanks for the data point, Ken, it's nice to know the 15% Male CC mouth/length ratio applies up to 15 pounders.

Well, let's try this. Attached should be a photo of the catfish we got last night (he's the one in the forground without the glasses and cap).

I've also attached a picture of the bass that choked to death on a hot dog. Not all my bass are this skinny, but there aren't a lot of fat bass in my pond -- but that's mostly OK. I'm after big fat bluegill.

Ken

I tried the pantyhose method last night. I threw a few handfulls of food out along with the small pantyhose bag. The individual pellets went pretty quick. My fishin'buddies laughed at me. I think the fish were snickering too. They didn't touch it.

I'd also tried something similar to this a while back when I filled various types of tube baits with fish pellets -- same response from the fish.

Dave,
I believe I have four grass carp in this half-acre pond. Two are absolute monsters. It is hard to tell, but I really think both go about 4-feet in length. The other two are smaller.

There isn't a single piece of vegetative growth anywhere in my pond. My water is muddier than it should be. It hasn't rained here in nearly a month, and my pond is muddy. I think that because of my pond location below a cow pasture, I have reasonable fertization, but I don't get a bloom. I think the grass carp are part of the problem, plus, the two really big guys regularly come to the feed trough and open their big vaccuum cleaner mouths and suck down a half-pound of feed with each pass.

If I start too see significant weed growth again in the pond with the remaining two, I can always go to the hatchery and get a couple of smaller ones.

I'd certainly appreciate any insight into this. I'm no pond expert.

Thanks all,

Ken

catmandoo, what did you catch Jr. on? Do your bass have whiskers?

"I tried the pantyhose method last night. I threw a few handfulls of food out along with the small pantyhose bag. The individual pellets went pretty quick. My fishin'buddies laughed at me. I think the fish were snickering too. They didn't touch it."
Who could blame them; I wouldn't touch Cecil's pantyhoses' fly with a 10ft. pole.

great pics catmandoo. you said the large cats taste like a vacuum cleaner bag or something to that affect in yer first post, and it looks like you plan on eatin that one....i hope it tastes better than yer earlier desc.

your bass are real thin. i live near a "bass stunted" pond but they are not that thin, and it is a BG(GSF actually)/LMB only situation. I wonder how one might describe or analyze additional affects if any of bass stunting dynamics on your pond with the additional populations pressure from crappie and CC.

if you had a goal of increasing your LMB size, what would be the best approach?....never remove BG, remove as many crappie and slot size bass as possible, remove all large CC?

sounds like you have a pretty good feeling for things after researching this forum, and evaluating your pond dynamics. thanks for the grass carp explanation, sounds very reasonable. I've also heard large cats can keep a small of body of water pretty turbid as well.

Ken, first, that is a big cat! I'm assuming a channel cat but my cat experience is little to none.

As DIED said, that LMB is dam skinny. I kind of feel bad for him. No wonder your bass are eating processed meats.

I think you are right to try and get rid of the two super-large grass carp. Can you bow-fish
them out, or do you know anyone who can? Maybe get all four of them; as you mentioned, you can get more anytime.


Don't let Sally Struthers see that LMB picture.

. . . just to answer a few of the questions:

catmandoo, what did you catch Jr. on? Do your bass have whiskers?

I got the catfish on chicken liver. As far as I know, only the catfish and I have the whiskers -- see photo above. It is possible that the bass shave regularly.

catmandoo. you said the large cats taste like a vacuum cleaner bag or something to that affect in yer first post, and it looks like you plan on eatin that one....i hope it tastes better than yer earlier desc.

My favorite part of a catfish is the belly meat. This guy gave us enough belly meat for two good size meals. We had one last night, and it was absolutley delicious. I cut the belly meat into "fingers" that I first coat with my secret secret dry mix, then I dip them in my secret beer batter. Then I fry them up in a hot high-sided cast iron fryer.

The one that tasted like a vaccuum cleaner bag was caught early this spring. I'm thinking maybe he laid at the bottom of the pond all winter -- in the muck. This guy maybe has been out sampling better fare for the past couple of months.

As DIED said, that LMB is dam skinny. I kind of feel bad for him. No wonder your bass are eating processed meats. . . . Don't let Sally Struthers see that LMB picture.

Mr. LMB may have been skinny, but he sure was good. I had him for lunch yesterday in a hamburger bun with a fresh sliced tomato. If Sally sees the picture, maybe she'll help me start a "save the starving fish in West Virginia" campaign and we can start distributing fatheads to ponds in need.

Good fishn'

Ken